Genesis as allegory? - History versus allegory

[Jack]

It's interesting that many who deny the literal Flood also deny other perfectly clear parts of the Bible. Satan's ministers have been busy stealing God's Word from their hearts.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

 

[Wick Stick]

Okay Wick. Case dismissed on a technicality. Is that it?

It's not a technicality, but it usually annoys people when you argue against the premise of their argument rather than meeting them on their own terms. I get it.

Would that then include, saying one thing-- then doing another?

Not unless it was in front of a judge.

 

[St. SteVen]

Literal. For example the Seven Days of Creation is the origin of our seven day week:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Every week is a reminder to us of that first week of Creation. God Bless You All

That's an interesting point.
But I wonder if the days of the week point to creation, rather than the creation pointing to the days of the week.
Hopefully that doesn't sound like double-talk. - LOL

I think it works that way with the Sabbath. The Sabbath points to creation, not the other way around.

/

 

[Jack]

That's an interesting point.
But I wonder if the days of the week point to creation, rather than the creation pointing to the days of the week.
Hopefully that doesn't sound like double-talk. - LOL

I think it works that way with the Sabbath. The Sabbath points to creation, not the other way around.

/

Is there anything in the Bible that you take literally???

 

[Mr E]

Interesting point. Most Christians don't understand that commandment.
Like you say, "It's a prohibition on using the legal system against enemies."
Or I would say, giving false testimony to the authorities to get someone in trouble with the law.
Giving false (or misleading) testimony against another.

/

Without meaning to be mean… that’s a very Jewish interpretation of what constitutes lying.

Kind of like— “Who? Her? She’s my sister”

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Interesting point. Most Christians don't understand that commandment.
Like you say, "It's a prohibition on using the legal system against enemies."
Or I would say, giving false testimony to the authorities to get someone in trouble with the law.
Giving false (or misleading) testimony against another.

Without meaning to be mean… that’s a very Jewish interpretation of what constitutes lying.

Kind of like— “Who? Her? She’s my sister”

No worries.
That wasn't my point.
The point is that the "bearing false witness" commandment (one of the Ten)
Was not about lying, per se. More specifically about giving false testimony.

Rahab was in the lineage of Christ. She lied for the Israelite spies in Jericho.

/

 

[Mr E]

St. SteVen said:
Interesting point. Most Christians don't understand that commandment.
Like you say, "It's a prohibition on using the legal system against enemies."
Or I would say, giving false testimony to the authorities to get someone in trouble with the law.
Giving false (or misleading) testimony against another.

No worries.
That wasn't my point.
The point is that the "bearing false witness" commandment (one of the Ten)
Was not about lying, per se. More specifically about giving false testimony.

Rahab was in the lineage of Christ. She lied for the Israelite spies in Jericho.

/

It's a meaningless point, but meant to undermine the fact that folks (including Jesus) sometimes don't tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Leviticus---

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy...

Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.


The concept is explained well in Colossians. Paul puts it in terms of the old man (the flesh) vs the new man (the spirit of Christ) and/or the things above (spirit) vs the things below (flesh).

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; (and he goes on to describe the fleshly things that we must put to death)-- fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry... put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds.

And put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him...


I think this is key and that there is a distinction between God (who is spirit) and man (including Jesus) who is flesh. Scripture warns us of those who deny his flesh.

 

[Mr E]

The sacrifice was heavenly. The lamb was seen in spirit. The spirit descended (like a dove) onto a man. The spirit, the seed, the word, the lamb of God-- became flesh.

Worthy is the Lamb.

 

[Wick Stick]

It's a meaningless point, but meant to undermine the fact that folks (including Jesus) sometimes don't tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

That's me you're talking about. You read too much into people's motives, and you didn't understand mine.

I have nowhere denied that Jesus lied to His brothers about attending the feast, dodged the Pharisee's questions in a way that caused them to come to wrong conclusions, or taught intentionally ambiguous material knowing that the majority would misunderstand.

All those things are true.

What I question is - does any of that constitute sin? I don't think that it does.

 

[Mr E]

That's me you're talking about. You read too much into people's motives, and you didn't understand mine.

I have nowhere denied that Jesus lied to His brothers about attending the feast, dodged the Pharisee's questions in a way that caused them to come to wrong conclusions, or taught intentionally ambiguous material knowing that the majority would misunderstand.

All those things are true.

What I question is - does any of that constitute sin? I don't think that it does.

Lying doesn't constitute sin. Misleading doesn't count. Being deceitful doesn't count. Not keeping your word, doesn't count. Breaking the law doesn't count..... If folks were willing to look at these things honestly-- they would agree that all these things are missing the mark. They are all things of the flesh, not of the spirit.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

How about lust? Would lust constitute sin, or is that too on a list of things that don't matter?

 

[ChristisGod]

Do you have sources for Adam and Eve being historical? I'm not doubting, just asking.

Jesus teaching on creation and He is called the second Adam . Was Jesus a fictional second Adam of a historical one ?

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus teaching on creation and He is called the second Adam . Was Jesus a fictional second Adam of a historical one ?

That's a great point.
And the main reason I struggle with Genesis not being literal history.

More to the point, if Adam was fictional, how can their be a "Fall" of humankind? (original sin)
Or a NEED for redemption? (restoration)

I suppose there is some sort of workaround that is used. Like...
Humankind fell (at some point) and "Adam" is the representative "type" for that transgression. ???
Were there sinless humans prior to "the Fall"?

Seems that there are problems no matter how we look at this.
- Is the Bible wrong?
- Is science wrong?
- Is human history wrong?
- Is archeology wrong?

What a mess!

/

 

[Mr E]

That's a great point.
And the main reason I struggle with Genesis not being literal history.

More to the point, if Adam was fictional, how can their be a "Fall" of humankind? (original sin)
Or a NEED for redemption? (restoration)

I suppose there is some sort of workaround that is used. Like...
Humankind fell (at some point) and "Adam" is the representative "type" for that transgression. ???
Were there sinless humans prior to "the Fall"?

Seems that there are problems no matter how we look at this.
- Is the Bible wrong?
- Is science wrong?
- Is human history wrong?
- Is archeology wrong?

What a mess!

/

"The Fall" is from heaven to earth. So to understand the story, you have to realize that it begins in the heavens, telling the story of a spiritual man, who God separates from Himself-- cutting him off from all that is above and banishing him from the garden of God-- and condemning him to an 'earthly' existence below.

 

[St. SteVen]

"The Fall" is from heaven to earth. So to understand the story, you have to realize that it begins in the heavens, telling the story of a spiritual man, who God separates from Himself-- cutting him off from all that is above and banishing him from the garden of God-- and condemning him to an 'earthly' existence below.

That's an innovative reading of the text. Interesting.
Any scriptural support?

/

 

[Mr E]

That's an innovative reading of the text. Interesting.
Any scriptural support?

/

The scripture IS the support.

But I can do better-- I can offer the support of the spirit who tells that spiritual story.

 

[Mr E]

I'm happy to tell the story here-- or with respect to @St. SteVen -- I can spin out an alternative thread.

It's a spiritual story and must be appreciated as such. Archetypical. Let me know your preference. Fellowship of the wings. @Episkopos

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm happy to tell the story here-- or with respect to @St. SteVen -- I can spin out an alternative thread.

Go ahead.
Thanks for the movie recommendation (a while back) I did see the movie.

/

 

[Wick Stick]

Lying doesn't constitute sin. Misleading doesn't count. Being deceitful doesn't count. Not keeping your word, doesn't count. Breaking the law doesn't count..... If folks were willing to look at these things honestly-- they would agree that all these things are missing the mark. They are all things of the flesh, not of the spirit.

You have to look at motives.

If you're lying to commit fraud and take someone's property... that's a sin. That's the meaning and context of the passage in Leviticus you quoted.

If you're lying to avoid accountability for other sins you've committed... yes that's a sin, too. That's the meaning of the passage from Paul that you quoted.

If you're lying to politely decline an invitation to an awkward social situation with some family members that are making fun of you... that seems ok.

If you're dodging loaded questions from a group of political adversaries who are literally looking for a pretext to arrest/murder you... that's smart.

If you're dangling hidden information in your sermons instead of saying everything forthrightly, for the purpose of causing the true seekers to look into the matter for themselves... that seems like a viable teaching strategy to me.

I don't think Jesus "missed the mark" on any of those. All of that is intentional behavior, and the outcomes seem to have been both intended and beneficial.

 

[Mr E]

You have to look at motives.

If you're lying to commit fraud and take someone's property... that's a sin. That's the meaning and context of the passage in Leviticus you quoted.

If you're lying to avoid accountability for other sins you've committed... yes that's a sin, too. That's the meaning of the passage from Paul that you quoted.

If you're lying to politely decline an invitation to an awkward social situation with some family members that are making fun of you... that seems ok.

If you're dodging loaded questions from a group of political adversaries who are literally looking for a pretext to arrest/murder you... that's smart.

If you're dangling hidden information in your sermons instead of saying everything forthrightly, for the purpose of causing the true seekers to look into the matter for themselves... that seems like a viable teaching strategy to me.

I don't think Jesus "missed the mark" on any of those. All of that is intentional behavior, and the outcomes seem to have been both intended and beneficial.

Of course the story could go like this…


“And Jesus never went to the feast, though he really wanted to…. But alas—- he had given his word.

 

[Taken]

I’m a big fan of the Hillsdale College online courses. (My son graduated from Hillsdale with a degree in Economics and Chemistry)

If you haven’t watched the course on the great reset yet, you should. There’s another new one on Russia.

On topic—

There are of course two sides to the Genesis story, as there are to all living things.

Hillsdale, small town, small college, great reputation.

I think there is one narrative in Genesis, of historical facts, that seem spread throughout the chapter, but of no surprise to me, as historically, we find God revealing knowledge, bit by bit, generation to generation.

Glory to God,
Taken