Genesis

[Tkinnie]

Hey im going to be updating this post with questions regarding this book in the bible. Im doing a bible study a very deep one so Im using multiple translations. God was telling me reading and studying are totally different so I have to be diligent in this.

[sup]2 [/sup][font=Charis SIL']And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and[/font][font=Charis SIL'] darkness [/font][font=Charis SIL']was upon [/font][font=Charis SIL']the face of the deep[/font][font=Charis SIL']. And [/font][font=Charis SIL']the Ruach Elohim [/font][font=Charis SIL']was hovering upon [/font][font=Charis SIL']the face of the waters.[/font]

[font=Charis SIL']Reading this, I had to question the difference between "the face of the deep" and "the face of the waters" [/font]

[font=Charis SIL']If they were the same thing, shouldn't it read Darkness was upon the face of the deep and so was the holy spirit?????????????[/font]

 

[rand]

and how can there be darkness when there is the Holy Spirit? maybe we are thinking in 3 dimensions and not four. Hight, bredth, width, length, and depth (of His Love). The Bible tells us the sky will roll back like a scroll, but how is that possible unless there is another dimension for it to roll back into. When we see Him , we will be like Him because we will finally see Him as He is. Maybe that's when we will see and understand that 4th dimension.

Just a thought

 

[Tkinnie]

Interesting... so then where/what is the deep, and where/what is the waters????

 

[veteran]

Interesting... so then where/what is the deep, and where/what is the waters????

There's some good Bible study tools that can help us allow God's Word to interpret God's Word. The Englishman's Concordance is one of them, and the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is another. A basic Strong's Concordance will do the same thing with helping to discover related Scripture to a Bible topic.


Job 38:29-30
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
(KJV)

That's about 'waters' turning to ice upon the earth, even the "face of the deep" being frozen. So that's not just about snow in Colorado. It's pointing to the idea of the ice at the earth's poles, where ice is like huge stones (bergs). In connection with the face of the deep this reveals that face of the deep is an expression for waters within the earth.


Ps 18:15
15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
(KJV)

The idea of the channels of waters being seen, means they overflowed. But why is that in connection with "the foundations of the world" there? In the earlier part of Ps.18 a description about a destruction on the earth by God is being given. But for what time, past or present?


Ps 33:6-7
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: He layeth up the depth in storehouses.
(KJV)

That's in direct association with Gen.1 and His moving of those waters overspread upon the earth to make the dry land appear. That depth is about waters within the earth, in those storehouses.

Ps 77:16-18
16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.
17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: Thine arrows also went abroad.
18 The voice of Thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
(KJV)

Was that about the time of Noah's flood? Most will say yes. But notice God did not shake the earth for the time of Noah's flood. So when did God shake the earth along with those events of the waters? At Gen.1:2.



Prov 30:4
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
(KJV)

Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(KJV)

The idea of "no more sea" means the waters upon the earth are going somewhere else in God's future new heavens and a new earth.


Also, look in a Strong's Concordance for the definitions of the Hebrew words 'tohuw' and 'bohuw'. They do not mean 'without form, and void'.

 

[Nomad]

[font=Charis SIL']Reading this, I had to question the difference between "the face of the deep" and "the face of the waters" [/font]

It would appear that the terms are synonymous. The darkness would indicate the chaotic or unfinished state of the watery mass that would eventually become the Earth. The Spirit "hovering" is reminiscent of a hen protecting and nurturing her eggs until the finished product has formed and the eggs hatch. Here is the Brown, Driver, and Briggs definition of "the deep." You can see there that this word can mean "ocean," "sea" or "water(s)."

H8415
תּהם / תּהום
tehôm
BDB Definition:
1) deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea
1a) deep (of subterranean waters)
1b) deep, sea, abysses (of sea)
1c) primeval ocean, deep
1d) deep, depth (of river)
1e) abyss, the grave
Part of Speech: noun feminine or masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1949
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2495a

 

[veteran]

The KJV phrase "without form, and void" was a translation idea of the translators. It's not what the actual Hebrew words tohuw va bohuw are pointing to. Tohuw va bohuw means 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin'. It's the very exact same Hebrew phrase God used in Jeremiah 4 about a state of destruction upon the surface of the earth. That is what Gen.1:2 is showing as the state of the earth at that point. The earth was created at Gen.1:1 like it says.

Between Gen.1:1 with the first creation of the earth and Gen.1:2 with the earth becoming a waste and covered with waters there is an undeterminable amount of time.

 

[Nomad]

The KJV phrase "without form, and void" was a translation idea of the translators. It's not what the actual Hebrew words tohuw va bohuw are pointing to. Tohuw va bohuw means 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin'.

That's not exactly true. Tohu and bohu have a range of meaning that is not limited to those you've mentioned, as I will demonstrate below. Also, there is no way of knowing if verse 2 indicates that the watery mass was the initial stage of creation or the remnants of a prior creation. Unfortunately, gap theorists have crammed much theology into the silence between verses 1 & 2, completely without warrant. To theorize that the original Earth was destroyed in between verses 1 & 2 may be legitimate. To say that this definitely happened and we know why is simply irresponsible, for the foundation of such a conclusion is nothing but silence.

Someone, such as Tm, conducting a Bible study, needs to know both sides of the story. You're doing him a disservice by presenting one side as if it were the only game in town.

H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
BDB Definition:
1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
1a) formlessness (of primeval earth)
1a1) nothingness, empty space
1b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (figuratively)
1c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
1d) place of chaos
1e) vanity
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to lie waste
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2494a


H922
בּהוּ
bôhû
BDB Definition:
1) emptiness, void, waste
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root (meaning to be empty)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 205a

 

[Tkinnie]

Hm... Genesis 1 says God created the heavens(plural) and the earth, everything after that is a detailed account on how he did it. There is no gap theory, the scripture is written as it is. I've learned to only deal with the things God gave us, anything more leads to deception or false doctrine, anything less leads to deception and false doctrine. I mean lets "say" the gap theory is true... We know God created all things... ALL things, he created NIGHT and DAY, Darkness, Light, The earth was NOTHING in the beginning it had no form and it was empty. Thats all Genesis 2 says... The earth was nothing... So what would propose a GAP THEOry or destruction of the earth????? All god is saying is he made something from nothing... We look at terms... and pick one we feel is relevant to what god is telling us... but then we find its not used in context properly so then we have to make another theory on what god is trying to say... There is no GAP theory... For 1, everything god does is perfect, so how then would the world be destroyed unless GOD himself does it??? The scripture gives no account of god creating a world before ours... Thats called false doctrine... Some people try to find a proper time period as to where satan fell. We know he was in eden, so it might have been before man, but Im not sure at this point. I do know that SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THROUGH ADAM, and thats when things changed, so I dont understand this gap theory at all.

1 In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth/Land). TITLE

[sup]2 [/sup]And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and empty); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.
- this is the beginning of "HOW" God created the heavens and the earth...

[sup]6 [/sup]And Elohim said, Let there be a raki’a (expanse, dome, firmament) in the midst of the mayim (waters), and let it divide the mayim from the mayim.

[sup]7 [/sup]And Elohim made the raki’a, and divided the waters under the raki’a from the waters which were above the raki’a; and it was so.
Here God made the sky divided the waters under the sky from the ones below it... This is revealed in the following scripture
[sup]8 [/sup]And Elohim called the raki’a Shomayim (Heaven). Not the eternal resting place... Heaven means high places. In context it means sky...
[sup]9 [/sup]And Elohim said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the yabashah (dry land) appear; and it was so.
This passage confirms that heaven in this context means sky, because he gathered the ocean/sea underneath it so that LAND CAN APPEAR.
[sup]10 [/sup]And Elohim called the yabashah Eretz (Earth); and the mikveh (gathering together of the waters) called He Seas; and Elohim saw that it was tov.
Now the earth has form, the heavens and the earth are NOW created. Read in context.
Genesis 1 was written by Moses, thats why there is a title, otherwise it would sound like this.
GENESIS 1:1 And the Earth was void and empty, etc... So he added a title... So we would know what is taking place in the following passage... remember the bible isnt a story but diaries/accounts of things that happened. So this IMO kills any gap theory. God creates perfection everything he makes is good

 

[veteran]

That's not exactly true. Tohu and bohu have a range of meaning that is not limited to those you've mentioned, as I will demonstrate below. Also, there is no way of knowing if verse 2 indicates that the watery mass was the initial stage of creation or the remnants of a prior creation. Unfortunately, gap theorists have crammed much theology into the silence between verses 1 & 2, completely without warrant. To theorize that the original Earth was destroyed in between verses 1 & 2 may be legitimate. To say that this definitely happened and we know why is simply irresponsible, for the foundation of such a conclusion is nothing but silence.

Someone, such as Tm, conducting a Bible study, needs to know both sides of the story. You're doing him a disservice by presenting one side as if it were the only game in town.

H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
BDB Definition:
1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
1a) formlessness (of primeval earth)
1a1) nothingness, empty space
1b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (figuratively)
1c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
1d) place of chaos
1e) vanity
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to lie waste
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2494a


H922
בּהוּ
bôhû
BDB Definition:
1) emptiness, void, waste
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root (meaning to be empty)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 205a

In all Biblical cases of Hebrew 'tohuw', you'll find it given in comparison as something in a previous state that became bad.

Isa 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(KJV)

God parting waters in Gen.1:9 to make the dry land UNDERNEATH appear is not the creating of earth matter. Even when He parted those waters in two, moving one part up to form the heavens, that's given in perspective of the other part of those waters remaining somewhere else. Those other waters were covering the dry land underneath, showing the earth was already there.

Gen 1:9
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
(KJV)

 

[Nomad]

In all Biblical cases of Hebrew 'tohuw', you'll find it given in comparison as something in a previous state that became bad.

No you will not. There are 20 occurrences in 19 verses of "tohu" in the OT. Most of them have nothing to do with, "a previous state that became bad." (tohu = H8414)

(Gen 1:2) And the earthH776 wasH1961 without form,H8414 and void;H922 and darknessH2822 was uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the deep.H8415 And the SpiritH7307 of GodH430 movedH7363 uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the waters.H4325

(Deu 32:10) He foundH4672 him in a desertH4057 land,H776 and in the wasteH8414 howlingH3214 wilderness;H3452 he led him about,H5437 he instructedH995 him, he keptH5341 him as the appleH380 of his eye.H5869

(1Sa 12:21) And turn ye not aside:H3808 H5493 forH3588 then should ye go afterH310 vainH8414 things, whichH834 cannotH3808 profitH3276 norH3808 deliver;H5337 forH3588 theyH1992 are vain.H8414

(Job 6:18) The pathsH734 of their wayH1870 are turned aside;H3943 they goH5927 to nothing,H8414 and perish.H6

(Job 12:24) He taketh awayH5493 the heartH3820 of the chiefH7218 of the peopleH5971 of the earth,H776 and causeth them to wanderH8582 in a wildernessH8414 where there is noH3808 way.H1870

(Job 26:7) He stretcheth outH5186 the northH6828 overH5921 the empty place,H8414 and hangethH8518 the earthH776 uponH5921 nothing.H1099

(Psa 107:40) He pourethH8210 contemptH937 uponH5921 princes,H5081 and causeth them to wanderH8582 in the wilderness,H8414 where there is noH3808 way.H1870

(Isa 24:10) The cityH7151 of confusionH8414 is broken down:H7665 everyH3605 houseH1004 is shut up,H5462 that no man may come in.H4480 H935

(Isa 29:21) That make a man an offenderH2398 H120 for a word,H1697 and lay a snareH6983 for him that reprovethH3198 in the gate,H8179 and turn asideH5186 the justH6662 for a thing of nought.H8414

(Isa 34:11) But the cormorantH6893 and the bitternH7090 shall possessH3423 it; the owlH3244 also and the ravenH6158 shall dwellH7931 in it: and he shall stretch outH5186 uponH5921 it the lineH6957 of confusion,H8414 and the stonesH68 of emptiness.H922

(Isa 40:17) AllH3605 nationsH1471 beforeH5048 him are as nothing;H369 and they are countedH2803 to him less than nothing,H4480 H657 and vanity.H8414

(Isa 40:23) That bringethH5414 the princesH7336 to nothing;H369 he makethH6213 the judgesH8199 of the earthH776 as vanity.H8414

(Isa 41:29) Behold,H2005 they are allH3605 vanity;H205 their worksH4639 are nothing:H657 their molten imagesH5262 are windH7307 and confusion.H8414

(Isa 44:9) They that makeH3335 a graven imageH6459 are allH3605 of them vanity;H8414 and their delectable thingsH2530 shall notH1077 profit;H3276 and theyH1992 are their own witnesses;H5707 they seeH7200 not,H1077 norH1077 know;H3045 thatH4616 they may be ashamed.H954

(Isa 45:18) ForH3588 thusH3541 saithH559 the LORDH3068 that createdH1254 the heavens;H8064 GodH430 himselfH1931 that formedH3335 the earthH776 and madeH6213 it; heH1931 hath establishedH3559 it, he createdH1254 it notH3808 in vain,H8414 he formedH3335 it to be inhabited:H3427 IH589 am the LORD;H3068 and there is noneH369 else.H5750

(Isa 45:19) I have notH3808 spokenH1696 in secret,H5643 in a darkH2822 placeH4725 of the earth:H776 I saidH559 notH3808 unto the seedH2233 of Jacob,H3290 SeekH1245 ye me in vain:H8414 IH589 the LORDH3068 speakH1696 righteousness,H6664 I declareH5046 things that are right.H4339

(Isa 49:4) Then IH589 said,H559 I have labouredH3021 in vain,H7385 I have spentH3615 my strengthH3581 for nought,H8414 and in vain:H1892 yet surelyH403 my judgmentH4941 is withH854 the LORD,H3068 and my workH6468 withH854 my God.H430

(Isa 59:4) NoneH369 callethH7121 for justice,H6664 norH369 any pleadethH8199 for truth:H530 they trustH982 inH5921 vanity,H8414 and speakH1696 lies;H7723 they conceiveH2029 mischief,H5999 and bring forthH3205 iniquity.H205

(Jer 4:23) I beheldH7200 (H853) the earth,H776 and, lo,H2009 it was without form,H8414 and void;H922 and the heavens,H8064 and they had noH369 light.H216

Isa 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(KJV)

I'm not sure why you think that this supports you. All that is said here is that God did not create the earth in order for it to remain empty. He formed it to be inhabited. That's exactly what happened. There's not one word in that verse that even hints at the idea of a world destroyed and recreated.

God parting waters in Gen.1:9 to make the dry land UNDERNEATH appear is not the creating of earth matter. Even when He parted those waters in two, moving one part up to form the heavens, that's given in perspective of the other part of those waters remaining somewhere else. Those other waters were covering the dry land underneath, showing the earth was already there.

Gen 1:9
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
(KJV)

Well of course the land was there. It was part of the initial stage of creation. After all, all of that water wasn't just floating in space.

 

[veteran]

Let's try that again; this time letting God's people learn about this from God's Word:

Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form (tohuw), and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(KJV)

Jer 4:23-26
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (tohuw), and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
(KJV)

Jer.4 is describing a literal destruction upon the earth. Hebrew 'tohuw' is used to show the earth in a previous state going into destruction by God's anger. That's from a non-destruction state to a destruction or bad state.


Deut 32:10
10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste (tohuw) howling wilderness; He led him about, He instructed him, He kept him as the apple of His eye.
(KJV)

A desert wasteland on the earth is a conditon on earth in a bad state. The palm tree fossils that exist in the desert of New Mexico (Putrified Forest) reveals this as fact, that a desert does not mean that's how those areas originally were created by our Heavenly Father.


1 Sam 12:21
21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain (tohuw) things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
(KJV)

The idea of vanity is contrasted to what can profit and deliver there. That's the idea of going from what is good to going to what is bad.


Job 6:18
18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing (tohuw), and perish.
(KJV)

Tohuw as "nothing" is contrasted once again to its opposite of what is good. In this example God's Way as non-perishable is contrasted to a way that leads to nothing and perishes (destruction per Hebrew 'abad).


Job 12:24
24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness (tohuw) where there is no way.
(KJV)

Once again, Hebrew tohuw is used to contrast TWO different things or conditions. Wandering in a wilderness is contrasted to those who don't with God influencing one's heart as to what they follow.


Job 26:5-8
5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
6 Hell is naked before Him, and destruction hath no covering.
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place (tohuw), and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
(KJV)

This is the only usage of Hebrew tohuw that would point to a connection with God's act of creation. But the 5th verse reveals a connection with inhabitants under the waters, which cannot point the creation, while verse 7 can.


Ps 107:40
40 He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness (tohuw), where there is no way.
(KJV)

Once gain, the idea of a wilderness is used to contrast one who wanders from God vs. one who does not. It is compared to contempt, which is really the same idea as something that goes into vanity.


Isa 24:10
10 The city of confusion (tohuw) is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
(KJV)

Still being used to contrast something in a previous state breaking down, going into a bad state.


Isa 29:21
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought (tohuw).
(KJV)

Again contrasted to one who is just that turns aside to "nought" (nothing, vanity). Going from a previous good state to a bad state.


Isa 40:17
17 All nations before Him are as nothing; and they are counted to Him less than nothing, and vanity (tohuw).
(KJV)

Obviously the nations are not "nothing" in the absolute sense, especially since God shows them still existing for Christ's future thousand years reign (Rev.20; Zech.14). That's in the sense of nations that go astray from Him; once again a contrast between some good going to bad. In that example He is specifically using the fallen nation of Lebanon as a contrast (Isa.40:16).



Isa 40:23-24
23 That bringeth the princes to nothing (tohuw); He maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and He shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
(KJV)

And still again tohuw is being used for contrasting vain judges that will not be "planted" that will perish. Something in a previous state going bad once again.


Isa 41:28-29
28 For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.
29 Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion (tohuw).
(KJV)

Tohuw being used to contrast vain men by their molten images of idol worship. God is pointing to false leaders in Jerusalem with that comparison in contrast to His true followers per that chapter's context. The idea once again of something in a previous state going bad, into confusion.



Isa 44:9-10
9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity (tohuw); and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
(KJV)

Still again, tohuw is used to contrast those among Israel that went into false idol worship (Isa.44:22). Good to bad again.


Isa 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain (tohuw), He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(KJV)

Here God is letting us know specifically, that He did NOT create the earth "without form" (tohuw). It's emphatic.


Isa 45:19
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain (tohuw): I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
(KJV)

Again, a contrast between good and something gone bad. Some among Jacob that first sought God then fell away to seek what is vain. That again is an example of tohuw used to show a good state going into a bad state.


Isa 49:3-4
3 And said unto me, Thou art My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought (tohuw), and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
(KJV)

Again, a contrast between a good condition and a bad condition.



Isa 59:2-4
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity (tohuw), and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
(KJV)

That's about those of Israel that fell away from God, and went into vanity. Same kind of usage for tohuw, from good to bad.

 

[Stan]

Hey im going to be updating this post with questions regarding this book in the bible. Im doing a bible study a very deep one so Im using multiple translations. God was telling me reading and studying are totally different so I have to be diligent in this.

[sup]2 [/sup]And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.

Reading this, I had to question the difference between "the face of the deep" and "the face of the waters"

If they were the same thing, shouldn't it read Darkness was upon the face of the deep and so was the holy spirit?????????????

Even though the world was completely engulfed in water, there was a difference between the 'deep' and 'waters'. Similar I guess to Ocean and Seas, or lakes and rivers. The 'deep' was just that, waters that went down a long long way, whereas waters were probably identifiable as shallow and even a lighter colour than the deep. The deep is water, but not all waters are deep as this word connotes.