Giants In America

[pia]

People can study and not understand because they remain spiritually blind and deaf. What Jesus said with regard to parables applies here:

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:10-16

An atheist can read the Bible with the wrong spirit and complete miss God's message to men. Even a believer who quenches the Holy Spirit as he reads and studies the scriptures will miss what God really does have for him.

Truly I have missed a lot, because I honestly thought that all Christians have access to the same Lord and the same Holy Spirit , I just couldn't understand why people only want to commune with Him, through what other people experienced with Him, instead of gaining their own relationship with Him ?
I came into believing somewhat back to front of a lot of other people, and often I don't comprehend the differences in believers ( not that we are different people, but beliefs )....You have written a lovely piece above, thank you for your response

 

[amadeus]

Truly I have missed a lot, because I honestly thought that all Christians have access to the same Lord and the same Holy Spirit , I just couldn't understand why people only want to commune with Him, through what other people experienced with Him, instead of gaining their own relationship with Him ?
I came into believing somewhat back to front of a lot of other people, and often I don't comprehend the differences in believers ( not that we are different people, but beliefs )....You have written a lovely piece above, thank you for your response

I would guess that part of people's trouble is that they are at the bottom, lazy. This is true in a measure of everyone, but some have managed to work on through those lazy feelings to where they never, or almost never, sit back and simply accept what the preacher or teacher or catechism says without seeking the Lord on a matter themselves. They do want to receive all of the rewards God has promised, but they do not want to have to do very much of anything in return. God does ask a lot of us. What He asks is really impossible unless we also ask for and accept His help:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

 

[pia]

What He asks is really impossible unless we also ask for and accept His help:

Absolutely, as Jesus said :" All things are possible WITH God." He is a marvel and a wonder !

 

[bbyrd009]

i am convinced that the Book was written from a different pov than we are trained to even grasp, hence the "see and not see, hear and not understand" stuff. I am currently pursuing the idea that the authors thought dialectically rather than logically, as we are raised to do, and have brought it up ad nauseum here to...well, put it through the fire, get some holes poked in it if possible lol. No takers yet though.

 

[Copperhead]

And given its Jewishness, sometimes coming at the Bible text with a Jewish mindset can illuminate the passages. This is why I like to occasionally seek out Messianic Jewish perspectives on these things to compare with other views. So many views only take a western mindset approach and miss some of the nuances going on. Given the NT was written primarily by believing Jews (which the possible exception of the author Luke), sometimes getting a Messianic Jewish perspective can be quite illuminating.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Genesis 6:9 (NKJV) This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Tamiym (perfect) is the same word used in determining if a sacrifice lamb is without spot or blemish. For instance Exodus 12:5 where it talks about without blemish. Tamiym is the Hebrew word there. Pure and whole. Given the context of the Genesis 6 passage and the events in the early part of the chapter, the idea that what is meant is Noah being uncorrupted genetically is apropos. There could have been more that were also uncorrupted genetically, but the deciding factor was that he walked with God.

I am still convinced, knowing the prophecy after Adam and Eve fell that the seed of the woman was a reference to a future savior, Satan, or at least those fallen angels aligned with him, made an attempt to corrupt the human gene pool so that there could never be a redeemer.

But God always knows what is going on and has an out. Like when God got so ticked off that He put a curse on the royal line with Jeconiah that no one from that line would ever prosper. I am sure Satan thought he had God over a barrel regarding the Messiah again. But an obscure ruling by Moses in Numbers 26 regarding the daughters of Zehelophad that if there is not a male successor, then the inheritance can go thru the daughter(s). Fast forward, and we have Mary, of the Davidic lineage, that becomes the mother of the Messiah. So the Messiah is of the lineage of David and a rightful heir to the throne of David. Satan foiled once again. Tough luck oh fallen one.

Yes, and Rahab was a Canaanite. God has never been restricted by the world that He created, nor can He be.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What do folks say today, sometimes in jest, about posterity? When some stupid guy like a dumb crook gets killed, some will say "he was taken out of the gene pool". That alone has generations or posterity in view. It is not presumptuous to assume the text says Noah was perfect (tamiym - without blemish) in his generations (gene pool). At any rate, Tamiym is the same word used of sacrificial animals being required to be unblemished and pure. Nothing about beginning anything or whatever. Used in the text in conjunction with generations would appear to have genetics in view. At least it is a reasonable assumption, given the goofy stuff going on in the first few verses of the chapter. Context is everything.

While our creator has always known what genes are and how to design them, I dont believe Moses or anyone else had any such concepts until the mid 17th century. Scripture concerns itself, in the natural world, with kinds. Please note that the ark contained a minimum breeding pair of all kinds clean or unclean, but multiples of the clean, only 1 pair unclean after its kind. The Lord's grace is such that He's promised our cities as habitations to the unclean, after they've been made desolate in destruction.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I would like to take credit for figuring this stuff out, but the ancient Jewish Rabbi's, Josephus, and many bible expositors right on up thru today hold similar views on the Genesis 6 passage. The extra biblical work, the Book of Enoch, goes into great detail, even naming names of angels involved. And lest we dismiss the book as a kooky bunch of stuff, in his letter in the New Testament, Jude quotes from the book of Enoch. Peter goes so far in his letter to say that the angels that were involved are kept in, the Greek word tartarus. This is the only mention of tartarus in scripture, but from other Greek texts, we know that tartarus is as far below hell as the hell is below heaven. It is a deep, dark abode of woe.

The thing also in the Genesis 6 text, is it says there were Nephilim (Giants) on the earth in that day, and also after that. Fast forward to Israel leaving Egypt and going into the promised land. Joshua, Caleb and the other spies sent in said that there were Nephilim (giants), the very same Hebrew word used in Genesis, in the land and that the spies were like grasshoppers in their sight. It would seem that another batch of fallen angels had tried to mess things up, knowing the prophecy made to Abraham that after 400 years, his descendants would come back to the land. Satan had 400 years to "lay down a minefield", as it were. And this explains why God told the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and beast in the land when they entered it. One of these guys, the king of Bashan mentioned in Deuteronomy, was 9 cubits tall and 4 cubits wide. that is roughly 13.5 ft / 4.2m tall and 6 ft / 2.75m wide. Sound like merely a pro basketball star to anyone?

What really makes this spooky, is that Yeshua said that in the end times, it will be as it was during the days of Noah and that men's hearts failing out of fear of what is coming upon the earth. We have no grasp on what the Tribulation period will be like, but it is going to be far more than we can even imagine from a slice and dice horror movie.

this is euthanistic drivel. The scripture tells why the Canaanites were dedicated as Holy for destruction; Their vile behavior and human sacrifices attributed to be pleasing to their gods.
God cares about who we are and who we worship, not who our parents or ancestors were. The flesh profits nothing.

 

[amadeus]

The scripture tells why the Canaanites were dedicated as Holy for destruction; Their vile behavior and human sacrifices attributed to be pleasing to their gods.
God cares about who we are and who we worship, not who our parents or ancestors were. The flesh profits nothing.

While the flesh indeed may profit nothing, it is a part of our stewardship to care for this old piece of flesh. It is certainly not to be first in our order of priorities, but neither should it be forgotten or purposely neglected. Not to worry, for few of us forget many natural dinner times. It is the times to consume the flesh and blood of Jesus that will too often be forgotten.

 

[michaelvpardo]

"don't be correcting what you perceive to be incorrect in someone else, or you will be known as judgemental rather than forgiving, and your good points will be overshadowed" perhaps. Teaching someone to fish (by example) is better than giving them a fish i guess

Correcting people is problematic, but rebukes (receiving them) is a way that leads to life, and giving them can be an act of love. Jesus advised us to deal with the log or beam in our own eye before attempting to remove one from our brother's eye. Pure vision is ultimately the province of God, as is hearing, and all the requirements of longevity. Judgment, as discernment, is required by God. That is, He requires us to learn how to discern good from evil in any given situation (something like situational ethics), but He never requires judgment against individuals or peoples except where there is sin, and typically when the sin is of the kind which leads to death (the kind of sin that we are not meant to intervene in through prayer.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

While the flesh indeed may profit nothing, it is a part of our stewardship to care for this old piece of flesh. It is certainly not to be first in our order of priorities, but neither should it be forgotten or purposely neglected. Not to worry, for few of us forget many natural dinner times. It is the times to consume the flesh and blood of Jesus that will too often be forgotten.

true enough. We are supposed to preserve our "temple" or tent, but its only a temporary habitation that as believers we share with the Lord. The flesh profits nothing in terms of our relationship to God, who is no respector of persons, yet a keeper of covenants.

 

[pia]

i am convinced that the Book was written from a different pov than we are trained to even grasp, hence the "see and not see, hear and not understand" stuff. I am currently pursuing the idea that the authors thought dialectically rather than logically, as we are raised to do, and have brought it up ad nauseum here to...well, put it through the fire, get some holes poked in it if possible lol. No takers yet though.

Again, there has to be a reason He said He would send The Holy Spirit to teach men all things. Nowhere does He mention bringing about a book for us to follow, and I am absolutely certain, that if that is what He had wanted or does want, he would have made that clear.
Why be here with us even till the end of the world along with the Holy Spirit if all people need to do is to read about Him? Does not make even the tiniest bit of sense to me.......

 

[amadeus]

Again, there has to be a reason He said He would send The Holy Spirit to teach men all things. Nowhere does He mention bringing about a book for us to follow, and I am absolutely certain, that if that is what He had wanted or does want, he would have made that clear.
Why be here with us even till the end of the world along with the Holy Spirit if all people need to do is to read about Him? Does not make even the tiniest bit of sense to me.......

The Book needs to be understood. This is not really possible without the Holy Spirit. The Book [the Bible] is the dead flesh of Jesus that needs to be eaten as per John chapter 6 for Jesus most certainly is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is the blood that needs to be drunk. When Jesus was dead on the cross His flesh was like an unopened Bible. But, then he arose from the dead:

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The Bible used alone for the wrong purpose by the wrong hands can kill people spiritually. Atheists will do this to unlearned Christians who quench the Spirit rather that being led by the Holy Spirit. If we never read the Bible, there is nothing there for the Holy Spirit to bring to Life.

 

[pia]

The Book needs to be understood. This is not really possible without the Holy Spirit. The Book [the Bible] is the dead flesh of Jesus that needs to be eaten as per John chapter 6 for Jesus most certainly is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is the blood that needs to be drunk. When Jesus was dead on the cross His flesh was like an unopened Bible. But, then he arose from the dead:

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The Bible used alone for the wrong purpose by the wrong hands can kill people spiritually. Atheists will do this to unlearned Christians who quench the Spirit rather that being led by the Holy Spirit. If we never read the Bible, there is nothing there for the Holy Spirit to bring to Life.

I certainly agree that it cannot be understood without the help of the Holy Spirit, but I cannot see it as Jesus' dead flesh, as He was resurrected ( His body also, which He is still able to show Himself in ).
I learned Jesus is real, from Him, and did not even get a hold of a Bible till 6 1/2 odd years later ( had been raised in an atheist family ). I got to learn later that is wasn't exactly the norm, but that is not my fault ( boy I have copped a lot of flack over that ). He certainly did not explain things in the same manner you just did, but it is not my 'business' to tell anyone how to believe. I just have a lot of trouble understanding why He is seen as someone not really that real, which surely all Christians say that they do believe.
From my own experience all I can say is that when I read the Bible and read of what happened to Thomas and Saul ( Paul ) and others, I got so very excited, as I realized that He had done it before to others also...Truly He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I do thank you for taking the time, during such a hard time in you life.........Blessings Pia

 

[Helen]

I certainly agree that it cannot be understood without the help of the Holy Spirit, but I cannot see it as Jesus' dead flesh,

I can..ritual, rather than living relationship.
Jesus is The Word, right. The Living Word.
The Bible is the letter of The Word.
2 Cor 3.6. "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the "letter" killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

That's how I see it.
But @amadeus will probably tell us ...

 

[mjrhealth]

The Book needs to be understood.

Not true, we need to know God, one can know God without the bible. The bible is a limitation man put on God, not a limitation God put on man. There is a reason why Jesus said,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Because if we know His voice than we know Him and Him us, and there we have teh truth because,

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

or as it says

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Its odd how one needs to quote teh bible to answer christians, but with non believers they are happy to hear about Jesus. It is enough.

 

[pia]

I can..ritual, rather than living relationship

Ok, I can see what you mean there. I can share with you what Jesus once said to me, and it was the most emphatic I had ever heard His voice. He said :" I am NOT a religion but REALITY !" ( the emphasis was His, not mine here ). Not 'A' reality, not 'THE' reality, just reality......I prefer to take the personal relationship over any and all rituals, traditions or whatever else men have come up with over the centuries, any day of the week, and it always saddens me so, to 'meet' people who shout so loudly about being believers, but when it comes right down to 'brass tacks', it's not so much that they believe in the real Jesus, but rather, they seem willing to 'fight to the death' when it comes to their particular understanding of what someone ( no one actually knows who ) wrote down about the subject centuries ago. I was actually quite shocked to find out that there is not one single solitary original manuscript in existence today pertaining to the New Testament, nor do we have any proof whatsoever of who the people were, who put their names to it.
I did a study on this, which to my surprise, showed that what we call 'plagiarism' today, and which is highly frowned upon, back then was actually considered, not just acceptable but an honor...Someone could write something and put a more well known persons name on it ( as if they had written it ) to lend more validity to it, and it was considered, as I just wrote, an honor to the person who's name was being used. Things do indeed change at times...
This is one of the reasons your posts brings me such joy, because you're not just talking from a book, and it is more than clear, that you have indeed allowed Him to teach you things and bring you much wisdom, a rare thing in my experiences with other Christians......God bless you for your patience with us all here................Pia

 

[pia]

If we never read the Bible, there is nothing there for the Holy Spirit to bring to Life.

I feel bad in as much as I have to disagree with you on this, the reason being that I had been brought up in a family where God or religion in general was a totally taboo subject. Then when I was 30 years old, I had what people now call a 'near death experience' where Jesus revealed Himself to me, after saving me from a place I NEVER want to get anywhere near again.
Seriously you could have knocked me over with a breath, because I could have never even imagined in my wildest dreams, not just that He actually was real ( as Christians had been saying ), but that He had the ability to stand there, right in front of me and speak to me, and a bit later I was able to touch Him, He is actually able to be solid also.
That first night this happened He must have spent close to 5 1/2 - 6 hours with me, and He patiently answered every single question I put to Him, so He most assuredly can bring LIFE and understanding to us, without the aid of a Bible ( I didn't even get around to getting one till ca. 6 1/2 years later, when I first joined a fellowship) . During these past 33 odd years since, I have had encounters with Him such as that 8 times in all, but many more times where understanding has come through the Holy Spirit or where I have just heard Him instead of seeing Him..... I am reminded that in the Bible He is quoted as saying :" My sheep heareth My voice and a stranger they will not follow." Turns out He wasn't being metaphorical there.
Sorry it got so long, and I sincerely hope we can be in fellowship, even if we don't see eye to eye on all of it....Here's hoping ! Be blessed in KNOWING Him Pia

 

[tabletalk]

I feel bad in as much as I have to disagree with you on this, the reason being that I had been brought up in a family where God or religion in general was a totally taboo subject. Then when I was 30 years old, I had what people now call a 'near death experience' where Jesus revealed Himself to me, after saving me from a place I NEVER want to get anywhere near again.
Seriously you could have knocked me over with a breath, because I could have never even imagined in my wildest dreams, not just that He actually was real ( as Christians had been saying ), but that He had the ability to stand there, right in front of me and speak to me, and a bit later I was able to touch Him, He is actually able to be solid also.
That first night this happened He must have spent close to 5 1/2 - 6 hours with me, and He patiently answered every single question I put to Him, so He most assuredly can bring LIFE and understanding to us, without the aid of a Bible ( I didn't even get around to getting one till ca. 6 1/2 years later, when I first joined a fellowship) . During these past 33 odd years since, I have had encounters with Him such as that 8 times in all, but many more times where understanding has come through the Holy Spirit or where I have just heard Him instead of seeing Him..... I am reminded that in the Bible He is quoted as saying :" My sheep heareth My voice and a stranger they will not follow." Turns out He wasn't being metaphorical there.
Sorry it got so long, and I sincerely hope we can be in fellowship, even if we don't see eye to eye on all of it....Here's hoping ! Be blessed in KNOWING Him Pia

Summary from Posts# 157 and 158: you reject the Bible, and therefore do not believe the Word of God (Jesus Christ); and you worship a man you call Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nowhere does He mention bringing about a book for us to follow

i think Christ's reading from the Torah, and His being sent to or at least coming from those with the Torah at least lend credence to the concept. But the concept of "love God and your neighbor" is plainly made paramount in the Book, as well as "see and not see" and even "a time will come when you no longer need It."