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Giants In America

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Christina, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    It sure will....please do not ever worry about that. You just push, if or when you need, I know you're not a legalist......... Much love Pia
     
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  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "don't be correcting what you perceive to be incorrect in someone else, or you will be known as judgemental rather than forgiving, and your good points will be overshadowed" perhaps. Teaching someone to fish (by example) is better than giving them a fish i guess
     
  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    of course not--no one wants to contemplate Esau within themselves--we all ID with Jacob, right
     
  4. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Haha! too true.
    But then again...because I believe "wheat" are God's blood-washed people. I am hoping I am 'all wheat'..with no tares...but you say true,
    We DO all have much of " the early Jacob " within ...I think we are out of Esau...but not wholly out of the 'old' Jacob who was a bit of a crook and a supplanter. Until the Angel wrestled with him and touched his thigh.
    I like the quote ( not sure who said it first ) " Never trust a man who does not walk with a limp."
    For myself...I change it a bit ....I never trust any church Leadership that does not walk with a limp.!!!
    As we walk now...I believe that we are walking out of the old Jacob into the new, ...the one who has been touched, and limps.
     
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  5. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    Genesis 6:9 (NKJV) This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

    Tamiym (perfect) is the same word used in determining if a sacrifice lamb is without spot or blemish. For instance Exodus 12:5 where it talks about without blemish. Tamiym is the Hebrew word there. Pure and whole. Given the context of the Genesis 6 passage and the events in the early part of the chapter, the idea that what is meant is Noah being uncorrupted genetically is apropos. There could have been more that were also uncorrupted genetically, but the deciding factor was that he walked with God.

    I am still convinced, knowing the prophecy after Adam and Eve fell that the seed of the woman was a reference to a future savior, Satan, or at least those fallen angels aligned with him, made an attempt to corrupt the human gene pool so that there could never be a redeemer.

    But God always knows what is going on and has an out. Like when God got so ticked off that He put a curse on the royal line with Jeconiah that no one from that line would ever prosper. I am sure Satan thought he had God over a barrel regarding the Messiah again. But an obscure ruling by Moses in Numbers 26 regarding the daughters of Zehelophad that if there is not a male successor, then the inheritance can go thru the daughter(s). Fast forward, and we have Mary, of the Davidic lineage, that becomes the mother of the Messiah. So the Messiah is of the lineage of David and a rightful heir to the throne of David. Satan foiled once again. Tough luck oh fallen one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  6. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    but how is "generations" defined here? We are led to assume "progeny" by the preceding v, but many other translations define it "the things he begins" or whatever.
     
  7. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    What do folks say today, sometimes in jest, about posterity? When some stupid guy like a dumb crook gets killed, some will say "he was taken out of the gene pool". That alone has generations or posterity in view. It is not presumptuous to assume the text says Noah was perfect (tamiym - without blemish) in his generations (gene pool). At any rate, Tamiym is the same word used of sacrificial animals being required to be unblemished and pure. Nothing about beginning anything or whatever. Used in the text in conjunction with generations would appear to have genetics in view. At least it is a reasonable assumption, given the goofy stuff going on in the first few verses of the chapter. Context is everything.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  8. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    seems to me that Ham pretty well answers that
    New International Version
    This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.
    New Living Translation
    This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.
    New American Standard Bible
    These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    These are the family records of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God.
    International Standard Version
    These are the family records of Noah: Noah was a righteous man. Blameless during his times, Noah communed with God.
    NET Bible
    This is the account of Noah. Noah was a godly man; he was blameless among his contemporaries. He walked with God.
    New Heart English Bible
    This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time. Noah walked with God.
    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    This is the account of Noah and his descendants. Noah had God's approval and was a man of integrity among the people of his time. He walked with God.
    JPS Tanakh 1917
    These are the generations of Noah. Noah was in his generations a man righteous and wholehearted; Noah walked with God.

    genealogy is actually only intimated in a couple of KJV-following translations, it seems to me. The JPS Tanakh kind of relates the sense of "in his beginnings, in the things that he did or started" best, perhaps
     
  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    or a great way to cause people to see and not see, maybe.

    i also agree that you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up too, though :)
     
  10. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    Indeed, those are translations. Problem is, when the context of the previous verses are in view, they don't equate very well. When you have Sons of God (bene-ha Elohim) coming unto the daughter of men, and the bene-ha Elohim always is used of angels in the OT, and Nephilim (Hebrew "earthborn"), Gigantes (The Septuagint Greek "fallen ones"), etc are the offspring, one gets the idea that something wild is going on. It is obvious that mankind alone are earthborn, but why would the text make a point of it regarding this angel/human union thing going on unless it wanted to emphasize the contrast.

    The text does not give enough credence to the idea that Noah was blameless among his contemporaries. He might have been blameless with God since he walked with God. Even then, given the context of the chapter, such an interpretation doesn't fit well. Augustine was the first to really make the case that angelic mischief is not in view, but it was the Sons of Seth and daughters of Cain that intermingled and brought on evil. And that would justify making the translation regarding Noah being blameless. But both positions take a lot of liberties with the actual text.
     
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  11. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    and Ham?
     
  12. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    Has what to do with the topic? I thought we were talking about Noah. Make your case about Ham and then we can discuss.
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well, your interp of "Noah was perfect in all his generations" lol
     
  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i would just refer you to the Book's case about Ham there. It seems obvious that if "Noah was perfect in all his generations" meant what you say, then there would be no Ham?
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    A lexicon is based on a person's interpretation, not inspired cannon. How a lexicon translates from the original words is no different that any other translation. Ham was still pure genetically. He did screw up.
     
  17. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea where I have been...but I have never 'seen' heard that before. It makes good sound spiritual and biblical sense...the best I have heard yet!!
    Thank you!
     
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    I would like to take credit for figuring this stuff out, but the ancient Jewish Rabbi's, Josephus, and many bible expositors right on up thru today hold similar views on the Genesis 6 passage. The extra biblical work, the Book of Enoch, goes into great detail, even naming names of angels involved. And lest we dismiss the book as a kooky bunch of stuff, in his letter in the New Testament, Jude quotes from the book of Enoch. Peter goes so far in his letter to say that the angels that were involved are kept in, the Greek word tartarus. This is the only mention of tartarus in scripture, but from other Greek texts, we know that tartarus is as far below hell as the hell is below heaven. It is a deep, dark abode of woe.

    The thing also in the Genesis 6 text, is it says there were Nephilim (Giants) on the earth in that day, and also after that. Fast forward to Israel leaving Egypt and going into the promised land. Joshua, Caleb and the other spies sent in said that there were Nephilim (giants), the very same Hebrew word used in Genesis, in the land and that the spies were like grasshoppers in their sight. It would seem that another batch of fallen angels had tried to mess things up, knowing the prophecy made to Abraham that after 400 years, his descendants would come back to the land. Satan had 400 years to "lay down a minefield", as it were. And this explains why God told the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and beast in the land when they entered it. One of these guys, the king of Bashan mentioned in Deuteronomy, was 9 cubits tall and 4 cubits wide. that is roughly 13.5 ft / 4.2m tall and 6 ft / 2.75m wide. Sound like merely a pro basketball star to anyone?

    What really makes this spooky, is that Yeshua said that in the end times, it will be as it was during the days of Noah and that men's hearts failing out of fear of what is coming upon the earth. We have no grasp on what the Tribulation period will be like, but it is going to be far more than we can even imagine from a slice and dice horror movie.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  19. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much @Copperhead ....food for thought. Love it!
     
  20. amadeus

    amadeus Active Member

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    People can study and not understand because they remain spiritually blind and deaf. What Jesus said with regard to parables applies here:

    "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:10-16

    An atheist can read the Bible with the wrong spirit and complete miss God's message to men. Even a believer who quenches the Holy Spirit as he reads and studies the scriptures will miss what God really does have for him.
     
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