Gluttony

[Duckybill]

Actually Ducky, being a homosexual or even calling yourself a homosexual isn't a sin either,

Then why have you admitted that it is sin???

Can you prove any homosexual is engaging in same-sex activity? You seem to think that all gay people are gay activists - it is simply not true. In fact, you cannot know if homosexuals are engaged in same-sex activity without witnessing it - just like gluttony.

So then, all these folks who call themselves homosexuals are lying? Get real Aspen.

 

[Duckybill]

@Aspen: Sorry for spamming up your thread, but Ducky INsisted we do this here.


This is what you pm'ing is about:

i started this conversation via PM, you cant tell me what the topic is.

Im not talking about gluttony or homosexuals here. i am talking about your way of not handling questions and being really incorrigible. all you do is prolong a conversation in meaningless babble. most probably to get your post count up.

you are a forumer and i suggest that you try these tricks on another site.

Everything I said in reply to your PM's I would also say in the forum. Isn't there some kind of rule against posting PM's in the forum?

 

[aspen]

Then why have you admitted that it is sin???

So then, all these folks who call themselves homosexuals are lying? Get real Aspen.

The sexual act involved in homosexuality is the sin. Just like over consumption is the sin of gluttony.

You are labeling all homosexuals as activists.

Everything I said in reply to your PM's I would also say in the forum. Isn't there some kind of rule against posting PM's in the forum?

You have the option of ignoring anyone in the forum.

 

[aspen]

Okay...I waded through Foreigner's post and decided to simply sum up his points without responding.

1. Aspen is a liar
2. Aspen is condemning 'fat' people to Hell
3. Aspen is a slanderer
4. Aspen claims to know people's intentions and judges them based on his understanding.
5 Aspen is lying about Christians condemning homosexuality; not admitting that he actually is the only one condemning homosexuals
6. Aspen does not care about people who are lost or fellow Christians - only homosexuals
7. Aspen has a pro-homosexual agenda
8. Aspen refuses to witness to the lost.
9. Aspen does not have a clue how to witness.
10. Aspen has no right to stand in the way of others who really want to help homosexuals instead of whining about things that do not matter.

I am hoping that about sums up Foreigner's point. Obviously, he is only concerned with commenting on my character, not addressing the issue. Therefore, Foreigner, consider your point made and move on, I am not interested in arguing about what you think about me personally. This thread is about the church overlooking common sins and condemning others. If you have and opinion about the OP I would love to hear it; if you want to comment on my character, please refrain - it is boring and off topic - thanks.

 

[Rach1370]

I am glad that you see my point about how some churches overlook the sin of gluttony. My larger point is that many Christian churches rank sin. I think it is wrong of us to do this. I also think it is sad that many Christians that have been involved in this conversation are proving my point and at the same time, appearing angry that I am asking people to recognize the fact that we do rank sin.

I think, maybe, we're still not quite on the same page. My point was that sure, SOME churches and Christians 'rank' sin, but a lot do not, and I feel like you're in danger of lumping us all together. I truly do not see one sin higher than another, and I know many people and churches who feel that way too, it is, after all the Biblical approach.
But my fear is, that in response to those who do rank and label, some churches and Christians are going too far the other way and finding some sins 'acceptable sins', if you follow me. If we are going to be truly Biblical and say all sin is equal, we must also follow it when it says that ALL sin is declaring ourselves enemies of God. That is why I'm holding so tightly to the concept that ANY sinner who is repentant and fighting against their nature with Christ's grace covering them, that they will be saved. But those who are unrepentant, who do not fight and do not see the need to, even if they claim Jesus as their own, I do not believe they are saved, they are in no way showing they have a new heart and nature. The hope of course is that they will see the need and come to Jesus, so we should still invite them, but to cloud the issue by making them think we are okay with their attitude....well, that would be like putting beer in front of an alcoholic, or chocolate in front of a glutton!

 

[aspen]

I think, maybe, we're still not quite on the same page. My point was that sure, SOME churches and Christians 'rank' sin, but a lot do not, and I feel like you're in danger of lumping us all together. I truly do not see one sin higher than another, and I know many people and churches who feel that way too, it is, after all the Biblical approach.
But my fear is, that in response to those who do rank and label, some churches and Christians are going too far the other way and finding some sins 'acceptable sins', if you follow me. If we are going to be truly Biblical and say all sin is equal, we must also follow it when it says that ALL sin is declaring ourselves enemies of God. That is why I'm holding so tightly to the concept that ANY sinner who is repentant and fighting against their nature with Christ's grace covering them, that they will be saved. But those who are unrepentant, who do not fight and do not see the need to, even if they claim Jesus as their own, I do not believe they are saved, they are in no way showing they have a new heart and nature. The hope of course is that they will see the need and come to Jesus, so we should still invite them, but to cloud the issue by making them think we are okay with their attitude....well, that would be like putting beer in front of an alcoholic, or chocolate in front of a glutton!

I think we actually agree. I share your belief that all unredeemed sinners are not going to be saved. I believe that all sin is equal. All I am saying is; give the HS a chance to work without poisoning the well. So what if a homosexual thinks they are okay in their sin, the HS will eventually reach them and convict them in a manner we cannot do. I would rather have the homosexual immersed in a caring environment when it happens than alone. I think of dealing with a person who is involved in personal, habitual sin as similar to dealing with an addict - they know they are sinning on a deep level (even when they deny and defend their sin to everyone), but the compulsion to continue their behavior is overwhelming and all attempts to get them to change are going to fail because we can only convince them on a cognitive level not a heart level. Shunning, picketing, shouting, reasoning, compelling, nicely confronting, monitoring, reprogramming, providing verses, or turning them over to Satan is not going to transform their lives, it will only make them sin in secret, experience shame and eventually rejection when everyone realizes that they cannot change for other people.

I think we as a church are good at allowing the HS to work in the hearts of people who are suffering from sin patterns that are more socially acceptable. I choose gluttony to focus on because it is a chronic problem in America and is visible in our congregations. I think arguing over who is really a glutton and why people are gluttons and why obese people are not really gluttons and how it is mean to judge obese people because they are trying their best, simply highlights the fact that people can relate to the sin of gluttony and cannot relate to homosexuality - we all may succumb to over-consumption, especially in our culture, which depends on it for economic viability.

I am in no way advocating for changing doctrine or telling any sinner that their sin is acceptable. I am just suggesting that we embrace all sinners into the church - even homosexuals. Where else are they going to hear the message of salvation? Where else are they going to find basic human acceptance? Where else are they going to be exposed to morality? Homosexuals have often been rejected by their families and friends - many have nowhere else to find basic human acceptance except in their own morally bankrupt communities. Often this culture includes dangerous influences, besides homosexual activity - bitterness against God and Christians and the 'close-minded heterosexual community' reigns. So what chance does the homosexual immersed in this culture have for reform? I agree that God can work anywhere, but they have a much better chance for reform without dealing with a bitter, resentful heart within a loving church community than their own.

That is my point. I think it is reasonable.

 

[Rach1370]

I think we actually agree. I share your belief that all unredeemed sinners are not going to be saved. I believe that all sin is equal. All I am saying is; give the HS a chance to work without poisoning the well. So what if a homosexual thinks they are okay in their sin, the HS will eventually reach them and convict them in a manner we cannot do. I would rather have the homosexual immersed in a caring environment when it happens than alone. I think of dealing with a person who is involved in personal, habitual sin as similar to dealing with an addict - they know they are sinning on a deep level (even when they deny and defend their sin to everyone), but the compulsion to continue their behavior is overwhelming and all attempts to get them to change are going to fail because we can only convince them on a cognitive level not a heart level. Shunning, picketing, shouting, reasoning, compelling, nicely confronting, monitoring, reprogramming, providing verses, or turning them over to Satan is not going to transform their lives, it will only make them sin in secret, experience shame and eventually rejection when everyone realizes that they cannot change for other people.

I think we as a church are good at allowing the HS to work in the hearts of people who are suffering from sin patterns that are more socially acceptable. I choose gluttony to focus on because it is a chronic problem in America and is visible in our congregations. I think arguing over who is really a glutton and why people are gluttons and why obese people are not really gluttons and how it is mean to judge obese people because they are trying their best, simply highlights the fact that people can relate to the sin of gluttony and cannot relate to homosexuality - we all may succumb to over-consumption, especially in our culture, which depends on it for economic viability.

I am in no way advocating for changing doctrine or telling any sinner that their sin is acceptable. I am just suggesting that we embrace all sinners into the church - even homosexuals. Where else are they going to hear the message of salvation? Where else are they going to find basic human acceptance? Where else are they going to be exposed to morality? Homosexuals have often been rejected by their families and friends - many have nowhere else to find basic human acceptance except in their own morally bankrupt communities. Often this culture includes dangerous influences, besides homosexual activity - bitterness against God and Christians and the 'close-minded heterosexual community' reigns. So what chance does the homosexual immersed in this culture have for reform? I agree that God can work anywhere, but they have a much better chance for reform without dealing with a bitter, resentful heart within a loving church community than their own.

That is my point. I think it is reasonable.

Of course you point is reasonable Aspen, you are after all, arguing for a loving response! But it is possible to be loving and disapproving at the same time. I love my kids wildly, but I make sure they know that I cannot condone and accept some of their behaviours. Even when they are being roused on by me, I always make sure I know they are loved, and that my discipline comes from a place of love. That because I love them I must show them that some of their behaviours are unacceptable...to their parents and to God.
The same attitude must be taken with sinners among our congregations. And let's face it, we are ALL sinners. We may not struggle with homosexuality, or gluttony....but we're kidding ourselves if we think there is not some deep rooted sin still within our lives that we will struggle with for the rest of our lives. We treat others as we would be treated ourselves. But as we are honest with ourselves, knowing deep down that our sins are not okay in Gods eyes...forgiven maybe, but not okay....then too we must be honest with others we love.
I do understand what you're saying Aspen, and in many ways I do not disagree. I just really believe that its entirely possible to really love people and be upfront with them at the same time. In fact, I think God calls us to be. Because really, knowing that someone is not only aware of our deepest sins, but still loves us and supports us anyway....that is the true message of Jesus. He knows and loves anyway, but He also never side steps the issue...He calls us through it. I think we can do no other but follow His example!

 

[aspen]

Of course you point is reasonable Aspen, you are after all, arguing for a loving response! But it is possible to be loving and disapproving at the same time. I love my kids wildly, but I make sure they know that I cannot condone and accept some of their behaviours. Even when they are being roused on by me, I always make sure I know they are loved, and that my discipline comes from a place of love. That because I love them I must show them that some of their behaviours are unacceptable...to their parents and to God.
The same attitude must be taken with sinners among our congregations. And let's face it, we are ALL sinners. We may not struggle with homosexuality, or gluttony....but we're kidding ourselves if we think there is not some deep rooted sin still within our lives that we will struggle with for the rest of our lives. We treat others as we would be treated ourselves. But as we are honest with ourselves, knowing deep down that our sins are not okay in Gods eyes...forgiven maybe, but not okay....then too we must be honest with others we love.
I do understand what you're saying Aspen, and in many ways I do not disagree. I just really believe that its entirely possible to really love people and be upfront with them at the same time. In fact, I think God calls us to be. Because really, knowing that someone is not only aware of our deepest sins, but still loves us and supports us anyway....that is the true message of Jesus. He knows and loves anyway, but He also never side steps the issue...He calls us through it. I think we can do no other but follow His example!

I appreciate your response. I am glad to be understood. I agree that we all have sins that we are going to struggle with our whole lives and I would add that some of those sins are not even at the conscious level until the HS makes us aware of them. Others are at the cognitive level until the HS brings them to the heart level. Most homosexuals have had to be honest about their sexuality in the face of tremendous resistance from family and friends - they have been quoted Bible verse after Bible verse from the instant they spoke up about being gay - they get it on a cognitive level. Entering a church seems like a step backwards to many gay people - they spent years coming out - being honest about their sexuality and now they are being told that they are unacceptable and must stuff it all away again? Would you like to roll back the clock to a time when you were miserable and depressed in order to make sure everyone around was comfortable? This is often how they feel.

As a church we need to provide them with love instead of information - a real problem I often see is that Christians believe the right information is love - false! That is like telling your kid that you are too busy loving them at work by providing food on the table, to spend time with them. Homosexuals already know why we reject them - they need to know how we love them.

 

[Duckybill]

You are labeling all homosexuals as activists.

No I am not. Are you saying all these people who publicly claim to be gay are non practicing??? If someone gives up the sin and repents then that's what matters. Those who continue to practice the sin of homosexuality are doomed. You're playing games Aspen.

 

[aspen]

No I am not.

Are you saying all these people who publicly claim to be gay are non practicing???

If someone gives up the sin and repents then that's what matters.

Those who continue to practice the sin of homosexuality are doomed.

You're playing games Aspen.

You are claiming that all homosexuals are pushing a gay agenda - this is utterly false.

No, I saying that most homosexuals are not activists.

No, people are what matter.

Why are you underestimating the Holy Spirit?

What game am I playing?

 

[Duckybill]

You are claiming that all homosexuals are pushing a gay agenda - this is utterly false.

Please provide a quote where I said that.

No, I saying that most homosexuals are not activists.

No, people are what matter.

If people matter then you don't tell them they are right with God when they aren't. Homosexuals aren't.

Why are you underestimating the Holy Spirit?

I'm not.

What game am I playing?

A very deadly game. It's called defending living in sin. Homosexuals who do not repent will spend eternity in Hell. God's Word says so.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

 

[aspen]

Please provide a quote where I said that.

If people matter then you don't tell them they are right with God when they aren't. Homosexuals aren't.

I'm not.

A very deadly game. It's called defending living in sin. Homosexuals who do not repent will spend eternity in Hell. God's Word says so.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

So you are asking me to provide a quote AND you are claiming that I am defending the sin of homosexuality and telling homosexuals they are right with God? Hilarious!

Scroll up and read my conversation with Rach. She has been the sane voice on this thread.

 

[Duckybill]

AND you are claiming that I am defending the sin of homosexuality and telling homosexuals they are right with God? Hilarious!

You certainly do defend homosexuality. Over and over ... BTW, I'm not the only one who has mentioned it.

 

[Etienne]

homosexuality is a no-no in the book that i am reading...

 

[aspen]

You certainly do defend homosexuality. Over and over ... BTW, I'm not the only one who has mentioned it.

How am I defending homosexuality by calling it a sin? Ah okay, by popular opinion, I am guilty of defending homosexuality....oh brother

 

[Duckybill]

How am I defending homosexuality by calling it a sin? Ah okay, by popular opinion, I am guilty of defending homosexuality....oh brother

Who do you think you're fooling? Anyone besides yourself?

 

[aspen]

Who do you think you're fooling? Anyone besides yourself?

Is that your answer?

 

[Duckybill]

Is that your answer?

My answer is God's answer.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

 

[aspen]

Noted. Now you can move on.

 

[Duckybill]

Noted. Now you can move on.

I know, but can you?