Gluttony
- Thread starter aspen
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My point is that as long as you keep bringing the subject of homosexuality up it will continue on. It seems to be very important to you for some reason.
Etienne
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- Jun 6, 2011
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But i am asking you now. Your statement was he is defending homosexuality, so back your statement up please.
It's documented quite well in the forum. If you really want to know then you will do the research yourself. There's plenty.
I thought your point was that I keep bringing up the topic:
"My point is that as long as you keep bringing the subject of homosexuality up it will continue on."
The fact is, I have not started a thread about homosexuality on this board. I am simply providing my opinion, just like everyone else. You and others on this board clearly do not like my opinion and have responded by attacking my character and theology. The crazy part is, I have never claimed that homosexual acts are okay before God or that the church should change their theology or sermons about homosexual acts; all I have ever suggested is that we accept homosexuals on a basic human level - love the the sinner, not the sin. Yet, no matter how many times I restate my position, people like you protest.
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You might help us to better understand your position by telling us if you are gay or not.
I am not sure why that matters, but no, I am not gay - been married for 16 years.
Thanks for clarifying. I think it does help to understand.
Not totally accurate Aspen.
From your OP in this thread that you started:
"Like homosexuals, obese people have came together and formed political lobbies to force clothing companies to carry plus sizes and airlines and hotels to provide special accommodations."
"After reading the many homosexual threads on Christian boards, I was surprised to find nothing on gluttony."
"Calling all Christians! Next time you see a homosexual and you want to tell him he is going to Hell; turn to your right and your left and tell the 5 obese people surrounding you that they are going to Hell, before approaching the homosexual. Chances are that, unlike the homosexual, they have never heard that message before."
Yes. The point of this thread is to bring attention to the fact that Christians often overlook sin that they are guilty of or could be tempted by, yet focus a great deal of energy and resources on sins they are not tempted by - like homosexuality. My point is not to defend homosexuality, it is to bring it back into perspective - it is a sin, just like gluttony and should be treated as such, rather than singled out. I am not sure how many times I've had to repeat this message so far on this thread, but it seems to be at least 5 or 6.
So I am left wondering Ducky, are you simply going to continue talking to me until I use enough words for you to use against me in order to support your belief that I defend homosexuality and really believe homosexuals are not sinners and are going to heaven and should actually be accommodated in all Christian churches and hopefully, take over all of our churches with their gay agenda and have all people who speak anything negative about them to be arrested and crucified on a cross in front of the church for all to see while they cackle madly and lead the congregation in a black mass and gay orgies? If the answer is yes, I better copy the above paragraph so I can repeat my reasoning for this thread for the 7th time.
It seems to me that you are one of those singling out homosexuality. I'm still wondering why. You can deny it all you like but it's too easy to see Aspen. I can't think of anyone here who defends lying, adultery, murder, etc. It is wrong to defend a sinful life, including homosexuality. VERY wrong. You made a point of comparing obesity and homosexuality. Being obese does not condemn anyone to Hell. Homosexuality does.
Ah, so Christians aren't singling out the sin of homosexuality; I am just crazy.
I guess you are still wondering why I am defending the sin of homosexuality because I have been so busy defending the sin of homosexuality that I haven't been able to realize that I am defending the sin of homosexuality.
Obviously I am just blind or willfully lying because every real Christian here can see that I am just defending a perversion and trying to recruit others to defend it too.
Of course not! Everyone here writes countless threads on the sins of lying and adultery and murder - they are sins that are never overlooked or accepted, just like homosexuality. No difference at all except in my own mind.
Too bad I am such a liar that I refuse to admit that I am defending sin, including homosexuality.
Obviously, I am only trying to send obese people to Hell and excuse all homosexuals.
Too bad I am just so in love with the sin of homosexuality that I can't see how judgmental I am being to obese people.
Ok folks, here is a perfect example of the 'crazy-making' attitude that drives people from the church. Seriously! Everyone that struggles to fit into church or some elder's dogmatic, concrete assessment of doctrine, and is honest enough to admit it, is at risk of being silenced or driven out. God forbid if you are an abuse victim or struggling with gender or sexuality issues, or are experiencing any enduring problem that is not solved immediately through scripture or prayer. Obviously, you are willfully refusing to conform and are therefore calling Jesus a liar or have some unconfessed sin.
Could you imagine coming to someone like Ducky with a problem like same-sex attraction? LOL! I've tried to explain a very simple and common phenomenon that I have seen occurring chronically within several different Christian church traditions and he just doesn't get it - too threatening, I suppose. I cannot imagine a young person approaching him with a sexual / abuse / self-harm / gender problem and explaining it the best they can, but either failing to find the right words or simply not being able to get their point across because it is not neat and tidy and within the narrow bounds of a conservative Christian framework. I am not singling out Ducky to be mean - he represents hundreds of people in our churches who cannot see past a narrow interpretation of doctrine. Hurting people are always secondary to doctrine in the eyes of these people.
The easily understood message I am presenting and presenting and presenting again is not being misunderstood because I am being unclear or crazy or heretical; it is simply being rejected because it is person-focused not doctrine focused. Yet, Jesus came for the sick; He ate with sinners; His parables were often focused on favoring the undeserving AND the people who were right; yet the people who were right rejected Him because they felt like they deserved to be favored alone for being right. The Pharisees were right; the older brother in the story of the prodigal son was right; the workers in the vineyard who worked all day were right to feel cheated; yet none of the people mentioned were people focused - all they cared about was being right - the NT calls it legalism. People who love and show mercy always appear like they are cheating the people who value being right - the story of Mary and Martha illustrates this point perfectly.
The fact is, loving sinners is bad for business. Those who garner power for themselves based on their knowledge of doctrine and ability to spout off scripture whenever they feel like someone needs instruction or correction are often on a real ego trip. If our focus switched from the admiration of these people to the love and mercy of the undeserving, it would threaten all those who thrive on being right and we would really have to face a lot of resistance. The message of Jesus was to focus on people - love / mercy / kindness -this is the gospel, which brings sinners into the Body of Christ and correct doctrine; therefore, stop clubbing people over the head with meaningless rules and gibberish before you love and care for them through service. Doctrine is meaningless without people-focus; love and mercy.
Finally, if you find yourself starting to really care about a sinner in your life and feel guilty for caring about them because of their sin; realize that it is your issue! Caring about them comes first - they know you are a Christian - the more you love them the more interested they will become in your belief system. The more you mention their sin or preach at them, the more they are going to feel judged - that is a fact.
Who here in this forum has singled out homosexuality besides you? The truth of this matter is that homosexuals flaunt their sins publicly and are respected for doing so. However if someone is caught in adultery, lies or murder they are disgraced and/or prosecuted. You've got it very backwards Aspen. Homosexuals are very respected and even honored nowadays.
Hey Aspen...I hope you don't mind that I keep replying...if you get sick of the back and forth just let me know, but I am finding this conversation good. It's not changing my mind on what I believe, but it really is helping put myself in the shoes of those who are gay. I very much liked your point that so very many homosexual people who have 'come out' to their families have had the bible thrown at their heads. I know this happens, we're kidding ourselves if we think it doesn't. And you are right, it is hurtful and very much unhelpful.
But I do have to disagree with you on the 'love instead of information' thing. I believe it is important to give both....but in saying that I mean true information. Not the info that they may have received from those disapproving relatives. We must think of how Jesus would deal with a gay person. Do we think for a minute that he would have used scripture to beat those people down? Nope! He would have amazed us all I suspect. But as loving and caring as Jesus is to all sinners, He still tells them to turn from sin.
You see, we must remember one really huge fact....it's not about us. It's not about how we feel or what we think. When it comes down to it, it's all about Jesus...all about God....His rules, His thoughts. As much as we want equality for all people, no matter how much we love them and accept them, we cannot...must not, forget that God is the ultimate judge. He has said that certain behaviours and actions are sinful. Imagine with me....if you (or more accurately some woman) was visiting a friend over in Iraq, and she ventured out in a really skimpy outfit...which she thought was fine because her country found it fine, etc....well, she'd be in a world of hurt, totally unaware or unprepared because her friend had not told her the 'law of the land'. Well, this whole world is under the law of God, and it simply behooves us to make people, if we really care about them, aware that their actions have consequences. There is absolutely no need for us to do this in a harsh, disapproving way, however, and you are sadly right that many Christians just don't care enough to take care. They are so busy being 'religious' and pointing the finger that they forget the love and care Jesus has shown them, shown all of us. I really believe it is just a simple matter of passing that on...no matter the sin. It's what Jesus would want us to do.
Is there a hole in the bucket, Ducky?!
I haven't started any of the homosexuality threads and there are a lot of them.
One of the threads was on a whole ministry that was developed to minister to homosexuals in a different, more meaningful way and that guy was reamed by lots of people.
I think you are mistakenly using the term, 'singled out' instead of 'not following the Christian status qou on homosexuality' - as if I was the Christian who didn't get the memo.
Sorry, I am person-focused and I believe all Christians should be as well. Doctrine was made for people, not people for doctrine. If we were made for doctrine we would be called to worship it.
Biblical doctrine was made to guide us safely into God's Kingdom. Being guided by it is not worshiping it.
Psalm 119:105 (ESV)
[sup]105 [/sup]Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
If homosexuals are offended by Biblical doctrine then they shouldn't be bringing it up or professing to be Christians.
1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
Hi Rach,
I am enjoying our conversation. I agree with your post and I think I need to modify what I said about love INSTEAD of information; what I should have said is love before information. In fact, if we have truly integrated our Christianity, we can provide the information through the love. I think Jesus was all about the love - conversely, using doctrine to be right and make sure everyone is on the same page at all times is all ego and calls us to remain in dualistic thinking. Jesus integrated doctrine and loved people perfectly - love cuts across dualism. The Pharisees thought that being right and teaching others to conform to right doctrine was pleasing to God - they were wrong. Jesus taught us to love and show mercy to all people, which - through the HS will lead to an openness to correct doctrine and eventually to loving God and others.
Did I say being guided by Biblical doctrine was worshiping it?
Nor will people who practice legalism
So, is there anything else you need to add before we end our conversation on this subject, Ducky?
You can include any thoughts you may have, but know I am finished discussing this topic with you.
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