God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[ATP]

It is clear by this verse alone that it is possible to fall away even with the presence of the Holy Spirit.


The key element in this passage is "renew them again to repentance" not that they have not repented but that they have.... We already understand that Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

Hebrews chapter 6 "repentance that leads to death" is referring to animal sacrifices. Otherwise God is in contradiction.

Heb 6:1 NIV Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - repentance from dead works, does not intend evangelical repentance, the doctrine of which is to be ministerially laid, and the grace itself to be exercised over and over again; but a repentance which arose from, and was signified by the sacrifices of slain beasts; for by them the Jews were taught the doctrine of repentance, as well as remission of sin; and in and over them did they confess their iniquities; yea, every beast that was slain for sacrifice carried in it a conviction of sin, an acknowledgment of guilt; and it was tacitly owning, that they, for whom the creature was slain, deserved to be treated as that was, and die as that did. So the Jews (f) say,

"when a man sacrifices a beast, he thinks in his own heart, I am rather a beast than this; for I am he that hath sinned, and for the sin which I have committed I bring this; and it is more fitting that the man should be sacrificed rather than the beast; and so it appears that, , "by the means of his offering he repents".''

But now, under the Gospel dispensation, believing Jews, as these were to whom the apostle writes, were not to learn the doctrine of repentance from slain beasts, or to signify it in this way; since repentance and remission of sins were preached most clearly to them in the name of Christ: nor were they to lay again another part of this foundation, or a second article of the Jewish creed,

- ATP

 

[Angelina]

Hebrews chapter 6 "repentance that leads to death" is referring to animal sacrifices. Otherwise God is in contradiction.

Rubbish...you've taken "repentance of dead works" out of context with the other elements that are listed in this passage.
ie: ~ of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

 

[ATP]

Rubbish...you've taken "repentance of dead works" out of context with the other elements that are listed in this passage.
ie: ~ of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Angelina, if not even death can separate a believer from God Rom 8:38-39,

then how is it that they can be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14.

Jesus says that once we believe we have eternal life. What are we believing in here..

John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

 

[StanJ]

Rubbish...you've taken "repentance of dead works" out of context with the other elements that are listed in this passage.[/size]
ie: ~ [/size]of faith toward God, 2 [/SIZE]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [/size][/size]3 And this we will do if God permits.[/size][/size]

Of course, this is typical RT rhetoric with tons of obfuscation from ATP.
Hebrew 6 clearly shows these people were all saved.
4 It is impossible for those who HAVE once been enlightened,
who HAVE tasted the heavenly gift, who HAVE shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who HAVE tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who HAVE fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The promulgators of OSAS refuse to accept that Hebrews is indicating true Christians here, despite the unequivocal language being used that they are and DO fall into apostasy.

Despite all the warnings in the New Testament about not falling away and enduring, the inculcated refuse to accept the truth of what IS being taught, and would rather believe what they've learned from their dogma.
2 Tim 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us.
Hebrew 12:3
Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Roman 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rev 3:10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[ATP]

You cannot crucify Jesus all over again when He already paid the sin debt. That is called a contradiction.

Isa 45:17 NIV But Israel will be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

 

[Angelina]

Angelina, if not even death can separate a believer from God Rom 8:38-39,

then how is it that they can be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14.

Jesus says that once we believe we have eternal life. What are we believing in here..

John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

If we were talking about born-again believers who have chosen to become more like him in their daily lives, then I doubt they will ever end up in the lake of fire. However, this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about those who have ~ tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and putHim to an open shame.

​It is clear that such people can fall away. I'm not saying anything about "renewing them again to repentance" I'm referring to "falling away" You can become a partaker of the Holy Spirit and still fall away!

StanJ what is an RT? :unsure:

 

[StanJ]

StanJ what is an RT? :unsure:

Reformed Theology.

 

[Angelina]

Ooohh! :unsure: My old buddy Andyy was one of them. I miss the guy terribly! I didn't agree with some of his theo...well a lot of his beliefs but I liked him anyway.

 

[StanJ]

Ooohh! :unsure: My old buddy Andyy was one of them. I miss the guy terribly!

I prefer it over Calvinists because I find it is almost a derogatory label as used by some.

 

[Angelina]

True... :huh: I don't like the Arminianism label either. Arminianism is just a theology created to refute Calvinsim

 

[StanJ]

True... :huh: I don't like the Arminianism label either. Arminianism is just a theology created to refute Calvinsim

Yes, and most today don't really understand what is fully behind those labels, on either side.

 

[Angelina]

Indeed! :huh:

 

[Zachary]

Salvation comes from, in, and through God alone! Selah

Then why is there a multitude of NT passages
which warn of losing salvation, i.e. eternal life?

Ergo, you must be saying that God removes salvation from some believers.
Yes, I agree ... in the final analysis, salvation does depend on God alone!
Thanks for pointing out that fact ... 'twas very observant of you.

 

[Angelina]

I do not believe that God removes salvation from believers but believers can fall from that position on their own by constantly ignoring God's warnings and the consequences of practicing sin in the personal walk with him. If you can imagine that God is like an umbrella. Some believers come out from under that umbrella to pursue their own desires and consequently walk off the path that was prepared for them.


Galatians 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[StanJ]

Then why is there a multitude of NT passages
which warn of losing salvation, i.e. eternal life?
Ergo, you must be saying that God removes salvation from some believers.
Yes, I agree ... in the final analysis, salvation does depend on God alone!
Thanks for pointing out that fact ... 'twas very observant of you.

Not that I see. There are warnings about falling away into apostasy and there is the prophecy about the great apostasy that will happen before Jesus's return but I see nothing in the New Testament that warns about losing salvation. Maybe you can itemize a few for us?

 

[ATP]

I do not believe that God removes salvation from believers but believers can fall from that position on their own by constantly ignoring God's warnings and the consequences of practicing sin in the personal walk with him. If you can imagine that God is like an umbrella. Some believers come out from under that umbrella to pursue their own desires and consequently walk off the path that was prepared for them.

What do you mean "fall from that position". We didn't die on the cross for sins. Jesus did. That's his position.

 

[Angelina]

What do you mean "fall from that position". We didn't die on the cross for sins. Jesus did. That's his position.

I do not believe that God removes salvation from believers but believers can fall from that position on their own by constantly ignoring God's warnings and the consequences of practicing sin in the personal walk with him. If you can imagine that God is like an umbrella. Some believers come out from under that umbrella to pursue their own desires and consequently walk off the path that was prepared for them.

Please read the entire post, then you will understand what I am saying...We can walk away from following Jesus but Jesus remains the same. The new covenant is a contract between God and the believer. It also has conditions. These conditions state then "If you, then I will" when the contract keeps getting broken due to the practice of sin from the believers side...
This comes into play ~ just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[ATP]

Please read the entire post, then you will understand what I am saying...We can walk away from following Jesus but Jesus remains the same.

We fall short of the glory of God every day. That doesn't erase what Jesus did on the cross for us. Salvation is a gift of God. That is why scripture calls it the free gift of salvation.

Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The new covenant is a contract between God and the believer. It also has conditions. These conditions state then "If you, then I will" when the contract keeps getting broken due to the practice of sin from the believers side...

Nonbelievers practice sin Angelina, not believers, thus non-osas is the accuser of the brethren. Our seed doesn't remain in God, rather God's seed remains in us forever.

Rom 6:14 NIV For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:18 NIV We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

This comes into play ~ just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But that is who we were. Notice the four were's. Are you accusing me of acts I'm not a part of? The devil is the accuser is he not?

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

- ATP

 

[Angelina]

We fall short of the glory of God every day. That doesn't erase what Jesus did on the cross for us. Salvation is a gift of God. That is why scripture calls it the free gift of salvation.
Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Salvation is for those who have received Jesus as their Lord and savior. Salvation does not mean that man cannot sin but rather that God has sent his son to cleanse their sins through the sacrifice of himself.

Nonbelievers practice sin Angelina, not believers, thus non-osas is the accuser of the brethren. Our seed doesn't remain in God, rather God's seed remains in us forever.

Non-osas are not the accuser of the brethren, you are greatly mistaken. OSAS is a theological belief and certainly not a belief that every born-again Christian accepts. OSAS does not divide sinners from believers, Jesus did that on the cross.

Salvation is indeed a free gift but when the recipient lives a life not consistent with Christ and continues to practice sin, then there is no room left for repentance. Luke 3:8, Romans 2:4, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Hebrews 6:1, 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 2:4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

We fall short of the glory of God every day. That doesn't erase what Jesus did on the cross for us. Salvation is a gift of God. That is why scripture calls it the free gift of salvation.
Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christians who practice sin are not going to inherit the kingdom of heaven and there are plenty of sin practicing Christians in this world who have fallen from grace due to the desires of their flesh...

Read ~ 2 Peter 2
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

But that is who we were. Notice the four were's. Are you accusing me of acts I'm not a part of? The devil is the accuser is he not?

Are you not accusing me of being a non-believer and an accuser of the brethren, therefore the devil because I am not an OSAS advocate? :huh:

Your post ~ Nonbelievers practice sin Angelina, not believers, thus non-osas is the accuser of the brethren.

Are you accusing me of such things knowing that I am not an OSAS advocate? :huh: Please respond

 

[StanJ]

We fall short of the glory of God every day. That doesn't erase what Jesus did on the cross for us. Salvation is a gift of God. That is why scripture calls it the free gift of salvation.
Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Have decided to take you off my ignore list for a while to see if I can reason with you.
Do you force people to take gifts when you buy them such? Do you believe it is impossible for people to not accept gifts?
Yes, Rom 6:23 does say the wages of sin is death. In order to receive a wage, you must work at a job full time, so full-time sinners do receive they're just wages which is death as you rightly say the gift of God is eternal life.

Nonbelievers practice sin, not believers, thus non-osas is the accuser of the brethren. Our seed doesn't remain in God, rather God's seed remains in us forever.

So you're a non-believer then because you constantly practice sinning by calling believers non-believers? If you actually read Luke 8, especially vs 11 - 15, you would understand that believers can and do fall away.

But that is who we were. Notice the four were's. Are you accusing me of acts I'm not a part of? The devil is the accuser is he not?
1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Yes, and do you notice that he is speaking specifically to these people that he knows ARE saved? Do you think that this specifically applies to everybody that reads 1st Corinthians 6? Do you not understand the context and direction of this section of scripture?
These are all rhetorical questions so don't bother answering, I know what you'll say.

We are all sinners in this world and the only difference between those that are saved and those that are not is salvation. We are either Sinners saved by grace when we are sinners not saved. Those who decide to revert to being sinners deny their own salvation, and no where in scripture does it say that we cannot deny our salvation. In fact we are warned many many times to practice due diligence, perseverance, and be on guard against falling into apostasy. I won't bother quoting all the verses at you because I'm sure you know them by heart. Denying what they say is tantamount to denying what God says, but thank God the only unforgivable sin that Jesus tells us about is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so there is hope for you.