God changed Seventh Day Sabbath Worship to First Day of the Week

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Taken

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It is easier to Convince a man there is No God,
Than to Convince a man there is A God.

Hey men....Forget the TRYING to Convince eachother...

I Believe there IS A God...and what you Believe...is irrelevant to me.
 

BarneyFife

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You only condemn those that don't keep your law, but you do it nicely, being very careful not to call names, other than disobedient law breakers, whose judgment will be with the unsaved.

Jesus wasn't so polite, but much more honest. He called a hypocrite and snake and devil what they were.

I care nothing for your so-called courtesies. Sticks and stones...

Be an adult with plain answers to the simple questions I have asked you:

1.But no amount of keeping Sabbath or any other commandment can save a person.

And so, no amount of not keeping the Sabbath can judge a person as a transgressor and condemn as the unsaved?

2. All this talk of accusation and condemnation is ridiculous.

My mistake. I must have wrongly lumped you in with several others who have stated plainly we are judged guilty with the unbelievers, by not keeping the Sabbath.

I apologize.

And so, are any not saved, nor will be found naked and not washed in the blood in that day, because they do not keep a Sabbath, either by ignorance or by refusal to do so by commandment
?

State yourself plainly. You answer 'No' to these, then I withdraw the charge of false accusation to you. No problem. With apologies for my false accusation against you, by lumping you in with the others that say 'Yes' plainly.
And I care nothing for your so-called charges. You have your sense of ethics; I have mine. You have spoken. If anything condemns you, it may very well be your own words. I'm becoming less and less interested in your estimation of my character. You and I both know that yes-or-no questions can be cunningly crafted traps. Christ had to face this constantly with the scribes and lawyers of Jewish antiquity. Unfortunately (although He is my example), I do not have a keen enough mind to always face these traps head-on. Many of the questions you so demandingly ask have already been answered.

I do know this:

God says: "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy" right in the middle of His moral code for human beings.

Modern Christendom says one of three other things:

  1. Forget it. It's a disposable ritual. Only the other 9 commandments apply to Christians.
  2. Forget the whole law. The Holy Spirit will magically teach morality to the believer.
  3. Forget the "seventh day" part. The solemnity has been transferred to the 1st day of the week.
Evangelicals cannot agree on this point, which constitutes Babylon (confusion).

This is all I have left to say to you personally on this point. I have said much which you have chosen to ignore, not even addressing. Thus, a meaningful discussion is hopeless.

Luke 22
35And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”

So they said, “Nothing.”


36Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
 

robert derrick

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And I care nothing for your so-called charges. You have your sense of ethics; I have mine. You have spoken. If anything condemns you, it may very well be your own words. I'm becoming less and less interested in your estimation of my character. You and I both know that yes-or-no questions can be cunningly crafted traps. Christ had to face this constantly with the scribes and lawyers of Jewish antiquity. Unfortunately (although He is my example), I do not have a keen enough mind to always face these traps head-on. Many of the questions you so demandingly ask have already been answered.

I do know this:

God says: "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy" right in the middle of His moral code for human beings.

Modern Christendom says one of three other things:

  1. Forget it. It's a disposable ritual. Only the other 9 commandments apply to Christians.
  2. Forget the whole law. The Holy Spirit will magically teach morality to the believer.
  3. Forget the "seventh day" part. The solemnity has been transferred to the 1st day of the week.
Evangelicals cannot agree on this point, which constitutes Babylon (confusion).

This is all I have left to say to you personally on this point. I have said much which you have chosen to ignore, not even addressing. Thus, a meaningful discussion is hopeless.

Luke 22
35And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”

So they said, “Nothing.”


36Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
And your dissembling non-answer to simple questions is lukewarm milk for babies.

I have more respect for Gerhard E, than for your protestations of impartial innocence. He at least is openly hot and plain spoken about his judgment of them that refuse to obey the Sabbath.

Since you refuse one way or the other, you are as the Pharisees to answer Jesus' yes or no question about John Baptist with: We cannot tell.
 
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BarneyFife

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Christ showed the men on the road to Emmaus in the Old Testament only all things pertaining to himself, and their hearts burned within them. How did He do that without the writings of the apostles?

“The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; (Luke 4:18)
 

BarneyFife

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And your dissembling non-answer to simple questions is lukewarm milk for babies.
...as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:16)​
 

BarneyFife

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Since you refuse one way or the other, you are as the Pharisees to answer Jesus' yes or no question about John Baptist with: We cannot tell.
Or is it more like Christ's refusal to answer the Pharisees' yes-or-no question about taxes: but rather Render unto God that which is God's?
 
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GEN2REV

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It is easier to Convince a man there is No God,
Than to Convince a man there is A God.

Hey men....Forget the TRYING to Convince eachother...

I Believe there IS A God...and what you Believe...is irrelevant to me.

It's pretty much irrelevant to me as well what others believe, BUT ...

...what they preach and teach to those who are interested in learning about God and The Bible … is relevant to all of us.

Having said that though, there's only so much you can do.
lead_horse-_to_water.jpg

url
 

Taken

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o_O
It's pretty much irrelevant to me as well what others believe, BUT ...

...what they preach and teach to those who are interested in learning about God and The Bible … is relevant to all of us.

Having said that though, there's only so much you can do.
lead_horse-_to_water.jpg

url

Instruction is simple....Speak the Word of God.....An Acceptable works.
No requirement to Understand it for them!
:rolleyes:
 

robert derrick

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Or is it more like Christ's refusal to answer the Pharisees' yes-or-no question about taxes: but rather Render unto God that which is God's?
Good question.

1. Jesus did not intend trickery, but only demanded plain speaking and a clear stand: so do I.

2. The penny Jesus held up was obviously Caesar's. He did directly answer those intending a snare. You answer nothing.

3. You openly equivocate within yourself about some trickery, as did the Pharisees about how to answer Jesus.

4. If the commandment you hold up is from Jesus to His people, then the answer ought be equally obvious as He gave to His challengers:

Yes: The Sabbath is by commandment of Jesus to all His people, and if any refuse to keep any of Jesus' commandments, they are guilty of all and do not love Him nor abide in His true vine.

I would say the same about any that refuse to help their brother in need, but only offer feigned blessings from God.

5. You may ask yourself why you do not answer plainly, while others have? Because you are still convicted by Scripture in the obvious answer, as others are not:

If you say yes, you are plainly judging the brethren in Sabbath days.

If you say no, you are plainly rejecting the Sabbath as commandment for all Christians to obey.

That is why I have gone down this path, rather than arguing over Sabbath day law. Let everyone be plain and open where they stand:

If this were only about the blessings of keeping a Sabbath, and even about dispute of which day is the actual Sabbath day in the Bible, then I would join in gladly.

But that is not what this thread has become: it is now all about judging others in Sabbath days, and therefore accusing others confessing faith in Jesus as wicked transgressors and rebelliously unrepentant.

And so, where do you stand?

I thoroughly and whole heartedly reject keeping a Sabbath by commandment of law. Am I going to heaven or not?
 

Davy

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You show bigotry..
The reason why The roman Catholoc Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday was ... hmm
....

The idea that Rome changed the day of worship to Sunday, which is why most Christians observed Sunday worship, is an idea of the JEWS who hate Rome, and especially today's Roman Church.

The first day of the week is Sunday. That was the day that Lord Jesus appeared to Mary after His being raised from the dead. That's another reason why the majority of Christians observe Sunday worship. Those who try to use pagan Rome as an excuse is just a JEWISH PLOY to try and get Christians to observe the orthodox Jewish sabbath of Friday evening to Saturday evening per the old Hebrew reckoning.

John 20:19
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
KJV

Acts 20:7
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
KJV

1 Cor 16:2
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV
 

Davy

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Davy, can you show me where there is a church meeting, or gathering of persons on the 'first [day] of the week in that text? I have never read that therein, in any language. It plainly says that each individual person was to gather their things privately at their own home after sabbath was over, when the business week opened.

Surely you realize what it means when the early disciples came together to break bread?

John 20:19
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
KJV

Acts 20:7
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

KJV

1 Cor 16:2
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV
 

Davy

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Davy, can you show me where there is a collective church meeting, or gathering together, throughout the entire Christian world on the 'first [day] of the week' in that text, or where it happened on a weekly basis? I have never read that therein, in any language. It plainly says that the small group at Troas, only, and no others in any other city surrounding that area or beyond, met together that one and only single time on the 'first [day] of the week' in the night (evening) portion (after sabbath was over), to say goodbye to Paul, and to hear his farewell and final messages to them from about sundown till midnight with at least two common meals, and a unique event of Eutychus. Then the following morning (at daybreak Paul walks 19 or so miles to catch a boat with no preaching being done in the morning or day portion, and no gathering by anyone during that portion of time in Troas, or any city near or beyond.

Read the Acts 20 Scripture I posted, as written. What else do you think it means when the early disciples came together on the first day of the week (Sunday) to break bread? Are you familiar with Communion with Christ Jesus?
 

Davy

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Davy, do you realize, that if you do the calculation of the time that this takes place, that it is actually the first evening portion of the second day of the week? Seriously, go back and read the account by Luke, then combine with this passage.

Your reply is so... funny, what a waste of time your post was.

Acts 20:7-8
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


You well know that the "first day of the week" ALWAYS means Sunday, and not the Hebrew sabbath that ended on Saturday at sunset!
 

Davy

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You misunderstand what "traditions" therein refer to:
Instruction was passed by mouth and written word (hence "letter", "epistle"):

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

Paul stated that all things needed to be proved by the word of God:

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

Jesus himself, and Paul and Peter warned of false "traditions" that were already in circulation in their day.

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2Pe_3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

Others were already corrupting the word:

2Co_2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.​

The question is what "traditions" was Paul referring to in context? Made up stuff with no other foundation than devils and men?

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

Notice, that in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, this is referred to before:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.​

Paul already told them in 1 Thessalonians, and it was in regards the second coming (see context) and what they (Thessalonians) were to be doing unto the coming of Jesus.

So Paul himself, actually referred to his personal face to face speaking, and also written in an earlier "our epistle". (1 Thess.)

In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, we see that Paul commended them for their "work of faith and labour of love".

In 1 Thessalonians 1:5 (2:2-5) it speaks of the "gospel" did not come in "word" ("speak", "exhortation", "words") only, but in "power" (Holy Spirit).

In 1 Thessalonians 2:8 it speaks of the "gospel" having been "imparted".

In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 it speaks of the "gospel" having been "preached" and also of the "labour and travail".

1Th 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
1Th 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.​

And so Paul continues by speaking of his example of labour (not in laziness, indolence as some were, being busybodies, etc) among them, and in the gospel:

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.​

Herein is then the "tradition" which Paul spake of that was spoken unto them:

1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
The Coming of the Lord
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

And more:

1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.​

Ain't that sumthin'.

Paul wasn't referring to man-made 'tradition' that came along later and passed itself off as truth.

I well know what the word translated "traditions" in God's Word is about. It's according to the context of the Scripture where it appears. And that is NOT always in a bad sense like you're WRONGLY trying to infer.

2 Thess 2:14-15
14 Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

KJV
 
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Davy

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Preach to yourself you pharisee!
You can see the tiniest splinter in Davy's eye but the beam in your bloom'n SDA own eye you hide behind so as not to look the other man in the eye.

WHAT ABOUT Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,38,39,40 Luke 23:50!!

There the SDA professional and intrained LIARS mimic and imitate and plagiarise one another. Man, even their gestures, their body language echoes one another. If you have seen Doug Bachelor you have seen Walter Veith and Jeff Dowell and have heard them all as in chorus in well-trained DISHARMONY. O no, it's not "evening already the Preparation having started" (Ingressive Punctual Aorist) - it's <<late noon>> / <<evening approaching>>, NIV style!
Bright sparks falling dust

Funny, applying your own status to a Bible-believing Evangelical Christian like me.
 

Ziggy

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The same day God rested is the same day Jesus was in the grave... resting.
On the first day God went walking in the garden looking for Adam.
Jesus found Adam (Mary) in the garden the day he rose from the dead (resting)
Jesus is the Light on the first day of the week. God found Adam hiding, on the first day of the week, And Jesus found Mary filled with doubt on the first day of the week.

So what is the seventh day of the week?
Rest before work.
Work is bring light to the darkness and casting out all fear.
Jesus was working on the first day of the week.
That's why we were given the seventh to rest in, before the work of the new covenant began.
And each earthly week we acknowledge God's creation, his Light, and his sacrifice for us. By simply remembering and keeping the seventh day holy.
If you can't keep one day holy...
why should you get any?

Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

just thinking..
Frankly I don't care who keeps any days or no days.
What I do and what you do is between whatever we decide and God himself.
Don't allow men to judge you.. they don't have that authority over you.
Stop arguing and just do what it is you are led to do.

If you feel led to keep the Sabbath Holy, then DO IT
If you are led to keep Sunday Holy, Then DO IT
Only you and you alone will face God with whatever it is you choose to do.

This is as fruitless as to jab or not to jab.
No man has a right to dictate over other men what they choose to do with their body and their time, as long as they are not committing a crime and causing harm to others.
DON'T TREAD ON ME

HUGS
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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It used to be that the best way of defence was attack. Our age changed it to, the only way of attack, is talk nonsense and act there is no other guy, what had something to say. This thread is the scientific proof of the effectiveness of the new way of Christian warfare. Rather, this thread is the umptieth proof of the effectiveness of the oldest way of Christian warfare, where Scripture is everyone's own Bible.
 

Ziggy

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where Scripture is everyone's own Bible.
It is though..
He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.
Not everyone hears everything the way, not everyone understands everything the same way.
Not everyone sees everything the same way.
Everyone has their own perception.
The thing about the church is we should try to find common ground, the basics.
It's when we try to influence, coerce, man handle others into our own perceptions, is where it errs.

When Jesus was speaking parables to the disciples, they didn't have a clue what he was saying.
They "reasoned" among themselves.
That's what we do. We reason together.
Everyone has a point of view.
And the Bible is the path we all walk in. And everyone interprets it according to the understanding they are given.
Scripture truly is everyone's own bible.
But it should be used to bring us together, not divide us.
But that's that two-edged sword right?
Maybe it's meant to divide wolves from sheep.
Those that are willing to get their hands dirty digging, and those that just like to eat the low hanging fruit.

And who gives us ears to hear and eyes to see? The Lord himself.
So we are given understanding of what we hear and see according to the understanding he has given each of us individually.
The idea is, to bring all those ideas together and build a coalition, that have fundamental basic knowledge of truth.

just thinking..
hugs