God changed Seventh Day Sabbath Worship to First Day of the Week

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JunChosen

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I'm assuming, since you seem to be implying here that I'm brainwashed, that you never relied on any third party influence to arrive at your current theological conclusions?

Of course I have! In fact, I'm very familiar with Ephesians 4:11-16, especially verse 14.

So the Holy Spirit and Strong's Concordance led you to determine that the word that 30+ English Bibles translates "week" is actually "Sabbaths?"
Yes, I believe that with all my heart! No one has a perfect understanding of Scripture so I rely on Strong's and Young's Concordances, serious Bible students, Pastors and Evangelists who are faithful to the Word of God. And, to teachers whether they have a label before or after their names, as long they teach the true Gospel. I think I've covered all or most of them? I also believe God sends delusions that people will believe a lie.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

John 3:18 is the most quoted verse in the world but
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (Matthew 18:14)


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)


John 3:16 is the most quoted verse [not 3:18] in the world, yet also is the least misunderstood. The word "so" is translated to mean "in this manner" or "thus."
Now, the term, "whosoever believeth" are those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:37 before the foundation of the world.

The term, "Little Ones" in Matthew 18:14 is a synonym for all believers that are all those whom Jesus redeemed in Matthew 1:21.

"Not willing that any should perish" and "all should come to repentance" means: that those whom Jesus saved in Matthew 1:21,
will not perish but that, all will come to repentance!

To God Be The Glory



 
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BarneyFife

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Of course I have! In fact, I'm very familiar with Ephesians 4:11-16, especially verse 14.


Yes, I believe that with all my heart! No one has a perfect understanding of Scripture so I rely on Strong's and Young's Concordances, serious Bible students, Pastors and Evangelists who are faithful to the Word of God. And, to teachers whether they have a label before or after their names, as long they teach the true Gospel. I think I've covered all or most of them? I also believe God sends delusions that people will believe a lie.




John 3:16 is the most quoted verse [not 3:18] in the world, yet also is the least misunderstood. The word "so" is translated to mean "in this manner" or "thus."
Now, the term, "whosoever believeth" are those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:37 before the foundation of the world.

The term, "Little Ones" in Matthew 18:14 is a synonym for all believers that are all those whom Jesus redeemed in Matthew 1:21.

"Not willing that any should perish" and "all should come to repentance" means: that those whom Jesus saved in Matthew 1:21,
will not perish but that, all will come to repentance!

To God Be The Glory

Uh, you're quoting stuff that I never wrote and, frankly, I don't understand how come to such twisted conclusions from Scripture that is so plain that a little child could understand it. I don't know how to answer such obfuscation. I think we're done. At least for now. May God bless you.
 

JunChosen

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Uh, you're quoting stuff that I never wrote
You may not have written the passages you quoted, but did you not bold and underlined in red the word "whosoever" in John 3:16, you did so to signify "any?"

Did you not bold and underlined in red Matthew 18:14 the term, "that one of these little ones should perish" to signify literal children but, I expounded them to mean "all believers?"

And, lastly did you not bold and underlined in blue the terms, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance?" (2 Peter 3:9)


frankly, I don't understand how come to such twisted conclusions from Scripture that is so plain that a little child could understand it.

I beg to differ that Scripture can be so plain to a little child UNLESS it is given him the understanding by the Holy Spirit. And I agree, unlike you who is an adult will distort Scripture and arrive at twisted conclusions for lack of understanding! [Hosea 4:6]

I don't know how to answer such obfuscation. I think we're done. At least for now.

As I've said from the previous paragraph, Scripture will elude you and it will NOT be clear for lack of understanding.

May God bless you.
May God bless you as well and may He give you wisdom.

Please read my post #1801 again. If there are parts that you disagree with, then let us reason together.

To God Be The Glory
 

BarneyFife

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You may not have written the passages you quoted, but did you not bold and underlined in red the word "whosoever" in John 3:16, you did so to signify "any?"

Did you not bold and underlined in red Matthew 18:14 the term, "that one of these little ones should perish" to signify literal children but, I expounded them to mean "all believers?"

And, lastly did you not bold and underlined in blue the terms, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance?" (2 Peter 3:9)




I beg to differ that Scripture can be so plain to a little child UNLESS it is given him the understanding by the Holy Spirit. And I agree, unlike you who is an adult will distort Scripture and arrive at twisted conclusions for lack of understanding! [Hosea 4:6]



As I've said from the previous paragraph, Scripture will elude you and it will NOT be clear for lack of understanding.


May God bless you as well and may He give you wisdom.

Please read my post #1801 again. If there are parts that you disagree with, then let us reason together.

To God Be The Glory
We are not communicating on any level. I wish you the best.
 

JunChosen

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We are not communicating on any level. I wish you the best.

Perhaps you are right. The problem could be my thought process that I have difficulty articulating things very well. But I did asked you to let me know any part that you did not understand and I was gladly to make an effort to clear any misunderstandings, as I'm compelled to do so [1 Peter 3:15-16].

You may not have understood what I've tried to convey but I did understand what yo were trying to communicate.

Many in Christendom don't really understand the true contexts of Scripture. Case in point are the Scripture passages in John 3:16, Matthew 18:14, and 2 Peter 3:9; in which some words you made bold and underlined to get my attention which really was never God's intent.

I will now show you my understanding of said verses above, as well as I believe they are also God's intent. I will dispense of the details which I've already alluded to in post #1801.

The correct understanding of John 3:16, Matthew 18:14, and 1 Peter 3:9.


For God in this manner [so] loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that only those whom He predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world would believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these believers [little ones] should perish. Matthew 18:14.

... not willing that those whom He predestined to salvation [any] should not perish, but that those [all] He predestined to salvation will come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9.

I hope this is much clearer.

To God Be The Glory
 

BarneyFife

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Perhaps you are right. The problem could be my thought process that I have difficulty articulating things very well. But I did asked you to let me know any part that you did not understand and I was gladly to make an effort to clear any misunderstandings, as I'm compelled to do so [1 Peter 3:15-16].

You may not have understood what I've tried to convey but I did understand what yo were trying to communicate.

Many in Christendom don't really understand the true contexts of Scripture. Case in point are the Scripture passages in John 3:16, Matthew 18:14, and 2 Peter 3:9; in which some words you made bold and underlined to get my attention which really was never God's intent.

I will now show you my understanding of said verses above, as well as I believe they are also God's intent. I will dispense of the details which I've already alluded to in post #1801.

The correct understanding of John 3:16, Matthew 18:14, and 1 Peter 3:9.


For God in this manner [so] loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that only those whom He predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world would believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these believers [little ones] should perish. Matthew 18:14.

... not willing that those whom He predestined to salvation [any] should not perish, but that those [all] He predestined to salvation will come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9.

I hope this is much clearer.

To God Be The Glory
I'm afraid it is very clear. I believe it is very dangerous not to take the Bible as it reads, and to add to it or substitute its content. I believe that God has preserved His Word very, very well by a large percentage of the translators who have published various English versions of the Bible. As a layman, I have found that when I have trouble understanding passages, I have much greater success with comparing the many (roughly 30 of them on Biblehub.com) English versions published, than dabbling with the various outlets of original languages available. I believe it takes a lot of education to sufficiently understand ancient Greek and Hebrew languages. I have no formal education beyond high school. I believe the intent and purpose of the verses in question are very clear with virtually no interpretation and certainly no additions needed at all. The Bible is written for the common man--not the sophisticate.
 

JunChosen

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I'm afraid it is very clear. I believe it is very dangerous not to take the Bible as it reads, and to add to it or substitute its content. I believe that God has preserved His Word very, very well by a large percentage of the translators who have published various English versions of the Bible.

If people read the Bible as you have suggested, how can you explain:
1) That God spoke in parables? Mark 4:34, Psalms 49:4
2) That God will send strong delusions that people will believe a lie?
2 Thessalonians 2:11
3) That God is an animal called a lamb? "Behold the Lamb of God..." John 1:29

The above and many other truths like it must be addressed and the only way we can understand such matters is to be like the Bereans who searched the Scripture to see if what Paul preached and taught is so.

And most importantly, we must be spiritual or we will NEVER understand Scripture because the Bible must be spiritually discerned [1 Corinthians 2:14]. Also, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." [2 Timothy 3:16].

So, to say that the Bible is very clear and is dangerous not to take as it reads, to me is foreign to the Bible.


The Bible is written for the common man--not the sophisticate.

This statement of course is FALSE. The Bible was written for the elite, that is to ALL believers who will ever be born since time began up to the present, and up until the last of the Gentile who is predestined to become saved will have become saved.

The world is the big stage where we all must play out our roles that have already been predetermined before the foundation of the world.

Isn't it wonderful how the Bible is so easy to understand once we find the key words circumscribed in the Bible from cover to cover and that it is one whole cohesive whole as well, if only we know where to find the key words?

To God Be The Glory
 
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BarneyFife

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If people read the Bible as you have suggested, how can you explain:
1) That God spoke in parables? Mark 4:34, Psalms 49:4
2) That God will send strong delusions that people will believe a lie?
2 Thessalonians 2:11
3) That God is an animal called a lamb? "Behold the Lamb of God..." John 1:29

The above and many other truths like it must be addressed and the only way we can understand such matters is to be like the Bereans who searched the Scripture to see if what Paul preached and taught is so.

And most importantly, we must be spiritual or we will NEVER understand Scripture because the Bible must be spiritually discerned [1 Corinthians 2:14]. Also, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." [2 Timothy 3:16].

So, to say that the Bible is very clear and is dangerous not to take as it reads, to me is foreign to the Bible.




This statement of course is FALSE. The Bible was written for the elite, that is to ALL believers who will ever be born since time began up to the present, and up until the last of the Gentile who is predestined to become saved will have become saved.

The world is the big stage where we all must play out our roles that have already been predetermined before the foundation of the world.

Isn't it wonderful how the Bible is so easy to understand once we find the key words circumscribed in the Bible from cover to cover and that it is one whole cohesive whole as well, if only we know where to find the key words?

To God Be The Glory
The problem is not that I don't know that certain passages have figurative, symbolic, and parabolic meanings and interpretations. (Below you'll find a copy from a post I just submitted yesterday.)

The problem is that the passages we were discussing do not have figurative, symbolic, nor parabolic meanings and interpretations, and neither did you interpret them that way. They are verses meant to be read plainly. All you did was add ideas from your own grab bag of proof texts to fortify your chosen theology--radical predestination.

And if you want to call substituting what God predetermined dozens and dozens of English translators to do to preserve His Word "spiritual discernment" (as you do with Matthew 28:1), that's up to you. Personally, I'm not buying it.
This statement of course is FALSE. The Bible was written for the elite, that is to ALL believers who will ever be born since time began up to the present, and up until the last of the Gentile who is predestined to become saved will have become saved.
This statement is, of course, false. And I don't feel like going into the details. Doubtless, you are likely to claim I have no evidence to back this and, frankly (as unkind as it may seem), I'm growing less and less interested in your ill-perceived and ill-conceived opinions.

I take all Scripture literally unless a figurative, paradoxical, or symbolic interpretation is suggested by context or other related passages. I believe this is a matter of sound hermeneutics.
We are not communicating on any meaningful level whatsoever and I'm finding it more and more difficult to reason with you. Let's call it a day.
 
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rstrats

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[QUOTE="Enoch111,
The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, and it was first established by Christ when He returned to visit His apostles exactly eight days after His resurrection (so that Thomas would believe and call Him "my Lord and my God" and worship Him).

[/QUOTE]

Assuming a first day of the week resurrection, eight days after that would be the 2nd day of the week and not the 1st day.
 

BarneyFife

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Assuming a first day of the week resurrection, eight days after that would be the 2nd day of the week and not the 1st day.
Some (not me) believe that Christ was resurrected on a day other than the 1st day of the week (Sunday). :)
 

BarneyFife

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And ever since no Christians have had any issues until Ellen G. White showed up.
Mrs. White was introduced to the Sabbath by a Sunday-keeping Adventist preacher who had been influenced by a Seventh-day Baptist lady. The Seventh-day Baptist Church existed 200 years before the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There is only one doctrine exclusive to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and it isn't the Sabbath, or the 2nd advent.

Seventh Day Baptists - Wikipedia

The Seventh Day with Hal Holbrook | Sabbath Truth
 

Desire Of All Nations

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How do you know Curtis is lying, i.e., knows what he is saying is wrong, and not simply incorrect?
Because someone who was simply incorrect would accept the correction and adjust their beliefs accordingly when given biblical proof that their position is wrong instead of doubling or even tripling down on falsehoods. When someone repeatedly argues from a place of error after their beliefs were thoroughly debunked, it's because their beliefs are a lot more important to them than anything the Bible actually teaches.
 

BarneyFife

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The Shabbat Apology

The Olympic Games go far back into antiquity. The first recorded and reliable date for them is 776 BC, though evidence exists that they were held even earlier.

Yet, however old the Olympics, they’re not as old as the seventh-day Sabbath. The date of the giving of the Ten Commandments—of which the Sabbath commandment is the fourth—at Mount Sinai certainly predates the Olympics, though it varies anywhere from 1446 to 1290 BC. But even that solemn proclamation was just a reiteration of what Israel had forgotten during its many years of slavery in Egypt.

This truth is seen in Exodus 16, when, weeks before even reaching Sinai, Moses scolded the people for violating the Sabbath by gathering manna on it: “‘Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.’ Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the LORD said to Moses, ‘How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.’ So the people rested on the seventh day” (vv. 26–30).

In fact, the seventh day as a holy day, set apart by God, goes way back to the Creation week itself: “And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made” (Genesis 2:2, 3).

In short, the Sabbath was already thousands of years old before the first Olympic javelin had been thrown or the first Olympic medal awarded.


Oops!
It’s not surprising that two ancient institutions—one God-given, one manmade (pagan, actually)—would sooner or later clash. And that is exactly what happened with the Tokyo Olympic games this summer when former Israeli prime minister and now opposition chairman Benjamin Netanyahu offered his congratulations to Olympian Linoy Ashram, who won gold in the women’s rhythmic gymnastics individual all-around and was also the first-ever Israeli woman to win gold at the elite quadrennial competition.

What’s wrong with that? Well, Netanyahu posted on Twitter a video and public statement of what he did. That use of modern electronic equipment and technology is, according to some Jews, a violation of the fourth commandment—equivalent to lighting a fire, which God expressly forbade during the Sabbath (Exodus 35:3).

The tweet initiated a firestorm of reactions. Chairman Moshe Gafni, leader of United Torah Judaism, a religiopolitical coalition, said that Netanyahu’s statement had “desecrated the Sabbath.”

Aryeh Deri, leader of another religiopolitical party, Shas, complained that Netanyahu “offended many Sabbath-observing Jews and offended his loyal partners, for whom the holy Sabbath is very dear to their hearts.”

And the list goes on. The outcry was so great, in fact, that after some mild attempts at damage control, Netanyahu finally apologized.

“I am very careful to keep Shabbat,” Netanyahu said. “My staff is very diligent, but they did not understand that what applied as prime minister, applies now as well. These things will not change. … I say this out of respect for Shabbat, out of respect for the Jewish nation.”

What that meant is that Netanyahu “had avoided publicly breaking the Sabbath when he was prime minister.” While he himself is a secular Jew and does not practice the Jewish religion, his goal, as any politician’s would be, is to cultivate the many political ties he has to Orthodox parties, like United Torah Judaism and Shas. And he cannot do that if he does not “respect the values of the Jewish heritage,” as Shas member and “head of the Knesset caucus for observing the Sabbath” Moshe Abutbul said.


Understanding the Sabbath
According to The Times of Israel, “At issue was not the call itself, but the fact that the message was publicly issued before Shabbat was out.”

However, Times also included this quote from Deri, who “noted that the Sabbath is considered so holy that one cannot desecrate it and then ask for forgiveness.”

Confused yet? Is the failure to observe the seventh-day Sabbath more of a political gaffe than a sin? Is it relegated to a cultural tradition rather than a command from the Almighty? Can it be kept outwardly but not inwardly? Is breaking it a point of no return in the face of an angry, exacting God?

According to the Bible, the Sabbath is supposed to be “a delight,” a time where we turn from our “own pleasure” (Isaiah 58:13) and seek the Lord’s will. It is to be a day where we repair that broken connection with God that sin has caused (v. 12); where we “satisfy the afflicted soul” (v. 10), demonstrating to others of God’s unending love for us; where we heal and are healed by this Great Physician (Matthew 12:9–13); where we come together to worship Him (Leviticus 23:3). This is the rest that God invites us to on the seventh day—a rest from this wearisome world, a rejuvenation in Him. That certainly sounds different from how these articles portrayed the Sabbath day, doesn’t it?

Would you like to know more about this seventh day? Then, we invite you to listen to this powerful and informative message “God’s Special Day.” Learn the true meaning of the Sabbath in the best way possible—straight from the Word of God.
 

BarneyFife

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Arguments Refuted
The Sabbath is Jewish, Sunday is Christian

Though the Jews were indeed entrusted with God's memorial of Creation, the Sabbath was not made for the Jews alone but for all of mankind. Nearly all theologians, even those who keep Sunday, agree that the Bible is clear on this ...

"The Sabbath was established originally in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after the six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam" (Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, August 15, 1937).

If the first Sabbath to be kept by a human being were not until just before Sinai (Exodus 16), and the Sabbath were merely a Jewish institution, as some claim, then why did Jesus say that the Sabbath was "made for man" (Mark 2:27)? And if no one was keeping the Sabbath, how then did generation after generation of human beings keep track of the weekly cycle for all those years? The book of Genesis is clear that the patriarchs used the seven-day week to count time (Genesis 2:1-3; 7:4, 10; 8:10, 12; 29:27, 28; 31:23; 50:10).

One would also wonder how the story of the Creation would have been maintained from generation to generation, a story that places special significance on the seventh day, if no one had ever observed the Sabbath during the 2,500 years between Creation and Sinai. The Creation story itself testifies that the Sabbath belongs to all people.

Furthermore, the seventh day held special significance in many ancient cultures outside of Judaism. Take the ancient Babylonians and Greeks, for example:

"The Sabbath-rest was a Babylonian, as well as a Hebrew, institution. ... The Sabbath was also known, at all events in Accadian times, as a 'dies nefastus,' a day on which certain work was forbidden to be done, and an old list of Babylonian festivals and fast-days tells us that on the seventh, fourteenth, nineteenth, twenty-first, and twenty-eighth days each month the Sabbath-rest had to be observed" (A. H. Sayce, The Higher Criticism and the Monuments, 1985, 74).

"But the seventh day is recognized as sacred, not by the Hebrews only, but also by the Greeks" (Clement of Alexandria).

Although the Scriptures do clearly portray the Sabbath as the memorial of God's Creation rest (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:11; Hebrews 4:4), and the early hours of the first day as the time when Christ arose from the dead (Matthew 28:1-6), nowhere do they identify Sunday worship as a commemoration of the resurrection (or as a replacement for Sabbath observance). Instead, they identify the Eucharist (communion service) as the commemoration of "the Lord's death" and the participation of the believer in baptism as the symbol of the Lord's death and resurrection.

"As often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes" (1 Corinthians 11:26).

"We were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4, 5).

Adapted from Kevin Morgan, Sabbath Rest, 80-82.
 

BarneyFife

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So if Augustine made this the official day of Christian worship, he was doing what was already established. And ever since no Christians have had any issues until Ellen G. White showed up.
"Whilst the laxity which is said to have prevailed among the Celts as to the observance of the Lord's Day cannot be excused, it may to some extent be explained. The Jewish sabbath--the seventh day--continued to be regarded by early Christians as a day of rest, whilst the first day of the week was observed as a day of gladness in commemoration of the Resurrection." - John McKay - The Church In The Highlands

St. Patrick (385-461AD) kept Saturday as the sabbath. During the first century the Roman Empire did not extend into Scotland and Ireland. The Roman Empire made several attempts to conquer Scotland to no avail. The Romans eventually built a wall between Scotland and England called Adrian Wall. Remnants of that wall are still present today. Therefore the beliefs of the early Catholic Church did not get infiltrated into Scotland and Ireland until much later in History.

Below are 4 Historical references proving that Saturday not Sunday was kept holy in Ireland and Scotland.


1) Historian A. C. Flick writes:
“The Celts used a Latin Bible unlike the Vulgate, and kept Saturday as a day of rest, with special religious services on Sunday.”
The Rise of the Medieval Church, page 237, Flick.
2)
“It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labor. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week.”
The Church in Scotland, page140, James C. Moffatt, D.D.
3) “In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours.”
Adamnan Life of St. Columba, page 96), W.T. Skene
4) From the Catholic historian, T. Ratcliffe Barnett, on the Catholic queen of Scotland: “In this matter the Scots had perhaps kept up the traditional usage of the ancient Irish Church WHICH OBSERVED SATURDAY INSTEAD OF SUNDAY AS THE DAY OF REST.”
 

rstrats

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[QUOTE="Curtis,
Note also that the two love commands which superseded the old ten, have no required day to keep at all, leaving us free to assemble together on any day we want - the apostles chose the Lords day, the first day of the week, since He rose on that day.
[/QUOTE]


I'm not aware of any scripture which says that the apostles assembled on the first day of the week because of the resurrection. What do you have in mind?
 

BarneyFife

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Sabbath-Road.jpg