God Commands Righteous Violence

[Matthias]

(sorry....from page 7 when I just HAVE to say something)

Let's just "cut to the chase" eh?
These pacifists are:

"IDOL WORSHIPERS"

Before you jump on his bandwagon -



He’s writing, in part, against this man. Believe what you will, but think it over real good.

 

[Jay Ross]

Maybe it is you who sadly deny the parables of the Minas and Talents is about divine justice?

Perhaps/maybe/undeniably, it is you has no understanding of the message in the parables of the Talents and the Minas.

Both parables were told by Jeus, the Parable of the Minas on Jesus' journey from Jericho to Bethany six day before the Passover and the Parable of the Talents two days before His crucifixion.

Jesus foretold us that Satan and the other rebelling heavenly hosts will be judged and kicked out of heaven and that they along with the judged kings of the earth will be imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment. Isaiah 24:21-22 describes the events of the Armageddon judgement and that the judged entities, i.e. the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years during the Summer Season of the harvest of Souls.

Luke 14 tells us that the Israelites will attempt to rebuild the Temple, that shortly afterwards, that a King will make war, i.e., judge the kings of the earth and that the nation of Israel will determine if they have the means to overcome the King making battle with the kings of the earth and come to the conclusion that instead of fighting this King, that they should seek His terms of peace.

It is my view that we have already seen the signs and wonders that will draw the kings of the earth towards gathering at Armageddon, some 44 years before they do. Armageddon will result in the Covenant of Peace that God has promised the nation of Israel after He has removed all of the heavenly beasts and hosts from the face of the earth for a season.

We see Jesus being mentioned in Luke 14, but He is not found mentioned in the Luke 19 Parable of the Minas.

Both parables are not about Divine Justice, but about how Satan intends to oppose the establishment of, during the time of those kings, His Everlasting Kingdom on the earth.

Perhaps it is you who needs to take a deeper dive into what these two parables teach instead of the shallow dive that you already have which has led you to the wrong understanding.

Shalom

 

[Lambano]

Jesus is going to destroy his enemies when he returns.

...And those advocating violence contrary to Jesus's own teachings may well be included among them.

 

[Matthias]

Thoughts?

“As long as we keep thinking that peace can be achieved by getting rid of our enemies, we remain trapped in the world of violence and hatred.” - Henri Nouwen

The state can’t afford to think that way; followers of Jesus can’t afford not to.

 

[Wrangler]

...And those advocating violence contrary to Jesus's own teachings may well be included among them.

Jesus taught violence and will model more violence than any human in history; what are you talking about? The absurdity of the pacifist argument is the use the most violent person of all time as the ultimate standard of pacifist ideology,

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus taught violence and will model more violence than any human in history; what are you talking about? The absurdity of the pacifist argument is the use the most violent person of all time as the ultimate standard of pacifist ideology,

That just is not so. Jesus never taught His followers to retaliate with violence. Speaking to Pontius Pilate, He said:

NKJV Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

The apostle Peter wrote about Jesus:

NKJV 1Pe 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
1Pe 2:22 "WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH";
1Pe 2:23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;

In Acts, we read a lot about the apostles and other Christians being persecuted, and some even killed, but not once are we told that any of them retaliated with violence.

 

[NayborBear]

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

............YET!
Psalms 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
This should show a difference between "servants OF Jesus Christ of Nazareth"
AND?
Servants OF "He who sits ON His throne!"
Right?

Is just that the pacifistic servants of Jesus Christ?
Have NO NEED FOR the Servants of He who SENT Jesus Christ of Nazareth WITH the GOOD NEWS!
EH?

 

[David Lamb]

............YET!
Psalms 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
This should show a difference between "servants OF Jesus Christ of Nazareth"
AND?
Servants OF "He who sits ON His throne!"
Right?

Is just that the pacifistic servants of Jesus Christ?
Have NO NEED FOR the Servants of He who SENT Jesus Christ of Nazareth WITH the GOOD NEWS!
EH?

Psalm 110 doesn't mention "servants of Christ" being violent.

 

[NayborBear]

Psalm 110 doesn't mention "servants of Christ" being violent.

So? What DOES Psalms 110:1 mention?
Perhaps something like:
"Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Lemme "attempt" to get you wise to a thing or 3 here.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes

So as you can read (which doesn't in any WAY mean understand) you see those "violent acts and actions" of the "elect" as enemies! What you DON'T see, is that these "acts of violence AND CONTENDINGS" for the "faith" ARE the "FATHER'S" acts of HIS "Servants and Priests" as "Making a FOOTSTOOL of Christ's enemies" BEFORE the Father sends Christ BACK at the "end/BEGINNING" of this current "slice of Eternity", into the NEXT "slice of Eternity" which is by general consensus, called "the Millennium!"

Which brings us to THIS!:
2 Timothy 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

What one's such as yourself, and many others DON'T realize, is that many of these "elect?"
Are ALREADY obtained salvation IN Christ Jesus!
Which is recorded HERE!:
Revelation 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests OF God AND of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Yet? Instead of cheering the Father's servants on?
You're in constant denial of what the Father's TRYING to DO!
And WORSE?
Claiming that we are PROMOTING EVIL!
Which causes this poster in wondering?
"Do y'all REALLY WANT the Christ TO return?"
Which begs the question?:
"Who's SIDE are y'all REALLY on?"

Jez a "note in passing" given for those "counting down" the "Rapture theory?" (jez for reference)
Pre Trib is already past!
And about 3/16ths INTO "Mid Trib!"

 

[David Lamb]

So? What DOES Psalms 110:1 mention?
Perhaps something like:
"Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Yes, that is God the Father speaking to God the Son saying that He, God, will make Christ's enemies His footstool. Notyhing about Christians being violent to their enemies.

Lemme "attempt" to get you wise to a thing or 3 here.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes

So as you can read (which doesn't in any WAY mean understand) you see those "violent acts and actions" of the "elect" as enemies! What you DON'T see, is that these "acts of violence AND CONTENDINGS" for the "faith" ARE the "FATHER'S" acts of HIS "Servants and Priests" as "Making a FOOTSTOOL of Christ's enemies" BEFORE the Father sends Christ BACK at the "end/BEGINNING" of this current "slice of Eternity", into the NEXT "slice of Eternity" which is by general consensus, called "the Millennium!"

First, although Romans 11:28 mentions the word "enemies", there is no indication that the Christians to whom Paul is writing are to be violent to their enemies. Here is that verse in the context of the surrounding verses:

NKJV Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Which brings us to THIS!:
2 Timothy 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

What one's such as yourself, and many others DON'T realize, is that many of these "elect?"
Are ALREADY obtained salvation IN Christ Jesus!
Which is recorded HERE!:
Revelation 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests OF God AND of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Yet? Instead of cheering the Father's servants on?
You're in constant denial of what the Father's TRYING to DO!
And WORSE?
Claiming that we are PROMOTING EVIL!
Which causes this poster in wondering?
"Do y'all REALLY WANT the Christ TO return?"
Which begs the question?:
"Who's SIDE are y'all REALLY on?"

Paul saying that he endures all things for the elects' sake does not mean that he was violent towards those who opposed him. We never read of Paul reacting violently to those who persecuted him.

I don't understand where you get the idea that I am in constant denial of what the Father is doing (not "trying to do" - God does things: He doesn't try to do things. Also, where have I claimed that you are promoting evil? Where have I even suggested that I don't want Christ to return?

Jez a "note in passing" given for those "counting down" the "Rapture theory?" (jez for reference)
Pre Trib is already past!
And about 3/16ths INTO "Mid Trib!"

 

[NayborBear]

Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

"they are beloved for the sake of the fathers."

Don't know what translation you're using where it states what you've posted?
But is ISN'T "this" one!
Romans 11:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Do you, or CAN you see, or do you even care how that which you've posted changes how this verse should be interpreted?
From what you've posted the word "fathers" is PLURAL!
From what the KJV prints?
The word "father's" is SINGULAR!

God does things: He doesn't try to do things.

Really?
How many "times" in the O.T. did "Yah-'uh-'Vay" TRY to get Israel to come back to the "covenant" they made?

And? They DID! For awhile!
And? STILL they STROVE (after a time) in TRYING Putting "GOD IN A BOX!" (sound familiar?)

Didn't even Christ Jesus of Nazareth state THIS?:
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often WOULD I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye WOULD NOT!

Don't know how YOU interpret these items?
Sure SOUNDS like TRYING to these eyes and ears!

I don't understand why I even try in discussing what the FATHER is doing with ones' who are so "Biblically ILLITERATE!"

"Legalism" has infiltrated the Church of Jesus Christ!
Not to mention "TRADITIONS OF MAN!"
Which makes VOID the Word of God!

I CAN tell you this as a "judgement!" And this DOESN'T come from me! But for you and the ones' LIKE you!:
Isaiah 28:
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death SHALL be disannulled, and your AGREEMENT with hell SHALL not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Due to the "GLASS CEILING" you have placed HERE:
John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: No Man cometh unto the Father, BUT by ME.(!!)

Traditionally, this is meant "by prayer!"
But? As YOU are so "nit picky" as to what a verse or verses states? This verse DOESN'T even MENTION Prayer! Does it?
What it DOES "mention" however, is: "You STAY HERE!" "UNTIL YOU'RE READY, WILLING AND ABLE!" "And THEN?" "ONLY, BY MY RECOMMENDATION!"
So? Whilst you are praying to the Lord of the Harvest for more "Harvesting Angels?:"
It would be MORE BENEFICIAL in asking for some for yourself!
As well as for others LIKE yourself!

But? (heavy sigh)
It is more likelier than not that a CONTINUING of Luke 13:34 be forthcoming!

 

[Lambano]

"they are beloved for the sake of the fathers."

Don't know what translation you're using where it states what you've posted?
But is ISN'T "this" one!
Romans 11:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Do you, or CAN you see, or do you even care how that which you've posted changes how this verse should be interpreted?
From what you've posted the word "fathers" is PLURAL!
From what the KJV prints?
The word "father's" is SINGULAR!

You've got your apostrophe in the wrong place. The KJV correctly reads

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Plural possessive, matching pateras ("fathers", plural) in the original Greek. Literally, "According to the Gospel, enemies through you; but according to the election, beloved through the fathers, for irrevocable the gifts and calling of God."

 

[Matthias]

You've got your apostrophe in the wrong place. The KJV correctly reads

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Plural possessive, matching pateras ("fathers", plural) in the original Greek. Literally, "According to the Gospel, enemies through you; but according to election, beloved through the fathers, for the gifts and calling of God is irrevocable."

It’s also not clear to me that he understands who the fathers are that Paul is alluding too.

 

[Lambano]

It’s also not clear to me that he understands who the fathers are that Paul is alluding too.

We might need to work on the implications of the word "beloved" too.

 

[Nathaniel]

What an interesting thread. And quite revealing as well.

I'm a responsible firearms owner. I do not carry concealed. I choose to make my position on just violence obvious to any who would choose violence in pursuit of whatever evil desire has entered into their unregenerate hearts.

I am also a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

If I understand the OP correctly, any actions I may take against the perpetrators of crimes against children would be not only just, but obligatory.

One of the problems I see with this idea of righteous violence (and there are too many to list them all), is that once I choose to take the aggressive posture, as opposed to the defensive one, I have set myself in the place of Almighty God as not only Judge, but jury and executioner.

Should I find myself in the position of having to defend an innocent child against one of these monsters, I would use deadly force without hesitation, and most likely not lose a minute of sleep over it.

On the other hand, there is a long list of these monsters posted on the internet for everyone to see, they live in our neighborhoods and drive up and down the streets where our children play. They also occupy some of the highest seats in our state and federal governments. I will name no names, as it's apparent that many here who are advocating just violence have repeatedly voted for them.

So what do we do with these monsters? The just violence position seems to insist that we hunt them down as we would a rogue lion or a bear. And it's probably not a bad idea. I may even help you load the ammo. But I will not go on the hunt with you.

I am not of the opinion that the Lord Jesus Christ was a pacifist, or that He taught pacifism. In fact, to use a term most popular with the youth of today, I would describe him as an absolute "savage", the greatest warrior who ever walked among us. As He so clearly exhibited in His passion.

Christ understood, and passed along to His servant Paul, that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. The Lamb of God will soon return as the Lion of Judah. Until that hour arrives, those of us who profess to be His disciples should endeavor to follow His example, and as Paul also said (I think it was Paul) "live peaceably with all men as much as is humanly possible".

Not an easy task when we are pressed in on every side by heretofore, what has been unimaginable evil, this is our calling nonetheless.

It has been my opinion for quite some time now, that Satan has intentionally come out of hiding in this last hour, at least in part, for the very purpose of planting these seeds of righteous violence in the hearts of those who have grown weary in waiting upon God's righteous judgment upon His enemies. If that ancient dragon can turn the hearts of those who serve the Prince of Peace to violence, it will be the greatest victory he has ever achieved.

A quick glance at the world around us, the systematic murder of millions of innocents around the world, particularly in Palestine being a prime example, would suggest that his efforts are already bearing much evil fruit, and will continue to do so

Is this not one of the many manifestations of the wicked heart of unbelief that we were warned against?

 

[David Lamb]

"they are beloved for the sake of the fathers."

Don't know what translation you're using where it states what you've posted?
But is ISN'T "this" one!
Romans 11:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Do you, or CAN you see, or do you even care how that which you've posted changes how this verse should be interpreted?
From what you've posted the word "fathers" is PLURAL!
From what the KJV prints?
The word "father's" is SINGULAR!

Sorry, I usually put "NKJV" before my quotes from the Bible. I forgot to do so this time. As to the matter of whether the verse says that it was for that sake of the father or the sake of the fathers, thew ASV, BBE, CEV, ESV, ISV, KJV, LSB, MKJV, NET, WEB, and YLT all have it in the plural. Besides, what has that got to do with what we were discussing, which was whether the verse taught violence for Christians?

Really?
How many "times" in the O.T. did "Yah-'uh-'Vay" TRY to get Israel to come back to the "covenant" they made?

And? They DID! For awhile!
And? STILL they STROVE (after a time) in TRYING Putting "GOD IN A BOX!" (sound familiar?)

Didn't even Christ Jesus of Nazareth state THIS?:
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often WOULD I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye WOULD NOT!

Don't know how YOU interpret these items?
Sure SOUNDS like TRYING to these eyes and ears!

I don't understand why I even try in discussing what the FATHER is doing with ones' who are so "Biblically ILLITERATE!"

"Legalism" has infiltrated the Church of Jesus Christ!
Not to mention "TRADITIONS OF MAN!"
Which makes VOID the Word of God!

I CAN tell you this as a "judgement!" And this DOESN'T come from me! But for you and the ones' LIKE you!:
Isaiah 28:
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death SHALL be disannulled, and your AGREEMENT with hell SHALL not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Due to the "GLASS CEILING" you have placed HERE:
John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: No Man cometh unto the Father, BUT by ME.(!!)

Traditionally, this is meant "by prayer!"
But? As YOU are so "nit picky" as to what a verse or verses states? This verse DOESN'T even MENTION Prayer! Does it?
What it DOES "mention" however, is: "You STAY HERE!" "UNTIL YOU'RE READY, WILLING AND ABLE!" "And THEN?" "ONLY, BY MY RECOMMENDATION!"
So? Whilst you are praying to the Lord of the Harvest for more "Harvesting Angels?:"
It would be MORE BENEFICIAL in asking for some for yourself!
As well as for others LIKE yourself!

But? (heavy sigh)
It is more likelier than not that a CONTINUING of Luke 13:34 be forthcoming!

But none of what you have written shows that Christians are told to use violence.

 

[NayborBear]

You've got your apostrophe in the wrong place. The KJV correctly reads

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Plural possessive, matching pateras ("fathers", plural) in the original Greek. Literally, "According to the Gospel, enemies through you; but according to the election, beloved through the fathers, for irrevocable the gifts and calling of God."

It seems you are correct and Bible Gateway is in error here.
As some of the translations they have use the plural "fathers'."
Or "patriarchs", or even "ancestors."

What kinda has me wondering though, is if the intent is to mean more than 1 "father?"
Why use ANY apostrophe at all?
Like just print "fathers?"
And looking through other translations, some of them don't use an apostrophe.

Many thanks for pointing this out to me.

 

[NayborBear]

Sorry, I usually put "NKJV" before my quotes from the Bible. I forgot to do so this time. As to the matter of whether the verse says that it was for that sake of the father or the sake of the fathers, thew ASV, BBE, CEV, ESV, ISV, KJV, LSB, MKJV, NET, WEB, and YLT all have it in the plural. Besides, what has that got to do with what we were discussing, which was whether the verse taught violence for Christians?

But none of what you have written shows that Christians are told to use violence.

Well then?
DON'T use violence then!
And? Don't KEEP condemning those that are brave enough with kahunas that DO see "Righteous Violence/Righteous Indignation" as a part of their Christian Service, Duty, yea even obligation!

 

[David Lamb]

Well then?
DON'T use violence then!
And? Don't KEEP condemning those that are brave enough with kahunas that DO see "Righteous Violence/Righteous Indignation" as a part of their Christian Service, Duty, yea even obligation!

I would suggest that Stephen was extremely brave, but he did not use violence against those stoning him. Nowhere in the Bible are Christians commanded to retaliate violently when they are persecuted, nor is there any example of an apostle or any Christian mentioned in the New Testament being violent against their persecutors. So how can violence be part of Christian service and duty?

 

[Matthias]

What an interesting thread. And quite revealing as well.

I'm a responsible firearms owner. I do not carry concealed. I choose to make my position on just violence obvious to any who would choose violence in pursuit of whatever evil desire has entered into their unregenerate hearts.

I am also a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

If I understand the OP correctly, any actions I may take against the perpetrators of crimes against children would be not only just, but obligatory.

One of the problems I see with this idea of righteous violence (and there are too many to list them all), is that once I choose to take the aggressive posture, as opposed to the defensive one, I have set myself in the place of Almighty God as not only Judge, but jury and executioner.

Should I find myself in the position of having to defend an innocent child against one of these monsters, I would use deadly force without hesitation, and most likely not lose a minute of sleep over it.

On the other hand, there is a long list of these monsters posted on the internet for everyone to see, they live in our neighborhoods and drive up and down the streets where our children play. They also occupy some of the highest seats in our state and federal governments. I will name no names, as it's apparent that many here who are advocating just violence have repeatedly voted for them.

So what do we do with these monsters? The just violence position seems to insist that we hunt them down as we would a rogue lion or a bear. And it's probably not a bad idea. I may even help you load the ammo. But I will not go on the hunt with you.

I am not of the opinion that the Lord Jesus Christ was a pacifist, or that He taught pacifism. In fact, to use a term most popular with the youth of today, I would describe him as an absolute "savage", the greatest warrior who ever walked among us. As He so clearly exhibited in His passion.

Christ understood, and passed along to His servant Paul, that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. The Lamb of God will soon return as the Lion of Judah. Until that hour arrives, those of us who profess to be His disciples should endeavor to follow His example, and as Paul also said (I think it was Paul) "live peaceably with all men as much as is humanly possible".

Not an easy task when we are pressed in on every side by heretofore, what has been unimaginable evil, this is our calling nonetheless.

It has been my opinion for quite some time now, that Satan has intentionally come out of hiding in this last hour, at least in part, for the very purpose of planting these seeds of righteous violence in the hearts of those who have grown weary in waiting upon God's righteous judgment upon His enemies. If that ancient dragon can turn the hearts of those who serve the Prince of Peace to violence, it will be the greatest victory he has ever achieved.

A quick glance at the world around us, the systematic murder of millions of innocents around the world, particularly in Palestine being a prime example, would suggest that his efforts are already bearing much evil fruit, and will continue to do so

Is this not one of the many manifestations of the wicked heart of unbelief that we were warned against?

How would you describe pacifism? Do you think of it as passive, doing nothing at all?