God determined Adam And Eve to Sin?

[Ferris Bueller]

I think we need to remember that our intellectual capacity is very limited in matters of understanding God's purposes. Just because we fail to understand something it does not discount God's wisdom. We must by faith put our trust in him.

I think it's amazing that we understand what we do understand about him.
I mean, we're talking about a being who created a universe so vast that the universe itself can not experience it all in real time.
Everything we see up in the night sky is history. Some light we see left it's source as little as four years ago. Some light we see left it's source thousands of years ago. It's so vast we can't see how it actually exists in real time. And we're supposed to understand everything about this God? Not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I'm very curious now. Why do you think they were doomed from the start?

Their nakedness signifies that they did not have the spiritual capacity to resist temptation. For mere flesh beings, that only comes through Christ. And so, ultimately, only those clothed in Christ can resist the temptations of the evil one.

"...clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh." Romans 13:14​

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm very curious now. Why do you think they were doomed from the start?

This is a good question because there were three rebels in the garden that day. The first rebel was not human, but desired something that did not belong to him....worship. The only way to attain it was to take it away from the true God and become a substitute god for the humans, if he could just get them to disobey their Creator and alienate them from him. He used self-interest, which is what caused his own downfall. The devil used self-interest again in tempting Jesus.....it’s a tactic that works for him.
Each was persuaded to take what did not belong to them. (James 1:13-15)

Did God know that these three would end up spoiling his original purpose for mankind on this earth?
I don’t believe that he chose to know....he set the scene, and waited for the results of their own choices.
He would have had a scenario or rescue plan for whatever choice they made.

Can we imagine what would have happened if satan’s offer had been refused? If Eve had followed through on what her husband had told her about the fruit that God had claimed as his own personal property? God would probably have punished that rebel and we would never have known a thing about it.
A third of the angels may well have refrained from following him into a rebellious course, in seeing what happened to him.

And what would have happened if Adam had refused to take the fruit from his wife? She would have suffered the stated penalty, and God may well have provided him with a new mate and a warning example in Eve of what happens when God’s laws are broken.

But no matter what choices were made, God already had a way to get us back to where we started. (Isaiah 55:11) .....what God starts, he finishes.

He allotted this time for all eventualities to surface and to be addressed so that precedents could be created for all time to come. Never again would his Sovereignty be able to be questioned....and never again would he allow rebellion to surface and cause trouble, either in heaven or on earth.

He will cleanse the earth of all wickedness and redeem all obedient humans with the precious blood of his son. Free will is then preserved as the gift it was meant to be and we can then get on with the life that God originally purposed for us.....everlasting life in paradise on earth.

I believe that we are now at the final part of the last days of this present world system and the days ahead will be difficult, but the end result of all this trouble will be worth all the pain of getting us there, never to experience a loss of peace and security, or to suffer pain or death again. (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:3-4)

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Yall know, i just HAD to respond.

*gets his calvinist soapbox out*

The Westminster Confessions chapter 6 clearly answers this question.
“Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.”

yall need to read the Westminster confessions and it would answer a lot of questions yall have. Might i also suggest the larger catechism too.

*steps down from his over used soapbox*

 

[Lambano]

And thus the Remonstrance was born!

Not that a couple of 55-gallon drums of SnakeAway(TM) sprinkled around the periphery of the Garden couldn't have saved us a whole lot of trouble. But as I wrote in another thread, for whatever God plans for us to become, it is apparently necessary that we have an experiential knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

[marks]

And thus the Remonstrance was born!

Not that a couple of 55-gallon drums of SnakeAway(TM) sprinkled around the periphery of the Garden couldn't have saved us a whole lot of trouble. But as I wrote in another thread, for whatever God plans for us to become, it is apparently necessary that we have an experiential knowledge of Good and Evil.

I have this idea that God is returning us to innocence. That the restoration in 2 Corinthians 4, as the outer man wastes away, the inner man is being restored, which means what it sounds, returned to new condition. I think that means being like Adam as he was created, innocent, except, now in Christ, having united to Him through death and resurrection, impeccable.

I'm not dogmatic about it. But I wonder, will we have the memory of sin? It seems to me, no.

Will we remember anything of this world? Or will the only fruit be what was produced for the eternal?

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

I have this idea that God is returning us to innocence. That the restoration in 2 Corinthians 4, as the outer man wastes away, the inner man is being restored, which means what it sounds, returned to new condition. I think that means being like Adam as he was created, innocent, except, now in Christ, having united to Him through death and resurrection, impeccable.

I'm not dogmatic about it. But I wonder, will we have the memory of sin? It seems to me, no.

Will we remember anything of this world? Or will the only fruit be what was produced for the eternal?

Much love!

Mmmm - maybe. My theory makes the problem of Theodicy bearable to me. If not, what was the purpose of all this?

 

[marks]

Mmmm - maybe. My theory makes the problem of Theodicy bearable to me. If not, what was the purpose of all this?

My idea is that God determined to create of family composed of those who want to be His family. And within that family, we have opportunity to gain in glory, even as our God is glorious, ever infinitely more glorious than us all.

I see two Men, Adam, and Christ.

Man, or Adam, was created in the only way Man can be created if to be a willing participant in relationship with God, that is, having a choice. Only God is intrinsically good, Man therefore though good would not remain good, and fell, and became corrupted.

From corrupted Man God is drawing His family. Man, Humanity, unfolds across the ages, a dead version of the Man God created.

The purpose of all of this is to provide the maximum opportunity for each of us to find Him. He has appointed the bounderies and times of our habitations, that we would seek Him, grope for Him, and He is very near each of us.

And in my life, opportunities for repentance came and went, as I ignored the Gospel message. The time came I realized it was Truth, and I obeyed. I believe if the circumstances of my life had been different, "better", maybe I wouldn't have taken that opportunity either. Maybe there wouldn't have been another.

Be it as it may, if living this life in this world is what it took to get me to see the light, so be it! Now it's a matter of dealing with the aftermath, as we remain in this world God's tools to bring in others.

Now we live alongside the corruption of the flesh, and the corruption that is in the world, and God is renewing our minds, transforming who we experience ourselves to be into the person He created when we were born again.

All the afflictions we face are intended to result in us looking more like Jesus in our thoughts and actions, and God totally knows what He's doing.

And as an added bonus, we the more and better we participate, the more glory we will receive.

Daniel 12:2-3 KJV
2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

2 Corinthians 4:17 KJV
17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

Much love!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

My idea is that God determined to create of family composed of those who want to be His family. And within that family, we have opportunity to gain in glory, even as our God is glorious, ever infinitely more glorious than us all.

I see two Men, Adam, and Christ.

Man, or Adam, was created in the only way Man can be created if to be a willing participant in relationship with God, that is, having a choice. Only God is intrinsically good, Man therefore though good would not remain good, and fell, and became corrupted.

From corrupted Man God is drawing His family. Man, Humanity, unfolds across the ages, a dead version of the Man God created.

The purpose of all of this is to provide the maximum opportunity for each of us to find Him. He has appointed the bounderies and times of our habitations, that we would seek Him, grope for Him, and He is very near each of us.

And in my life, opportunities for repentance came and went, as I ignored the Gospel message. The time came I realized it was Truth, and I obeyed. I believe if the circumstances of my life had been different, "better", maybe I wouldn't have taken that opportunity either. Maybe there wouldn't have been another.

Be it as it may, if living this life in this world is what it took to get me to see the light, so be it! Now it's a matter of dealing with the aftermath, as we remain in this world God's tools to bring in others.

Now we live alongside the corruption of the flesh, and the corruption that is in the world, and God is renewing our minds, transforming who we experience ourselves to be into the person He created when we were born again.

All the afflictions we face are intended to result in us looking more like Jesus in our thoughts and actions, and God totally knows what He's doing.

And as an added bonus, we the more and better we participate, the more glory we will receive.

Daniel 12:2-3 KJV
2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

2 Corinthians 4:17 KJV
17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

Much love!

wow, hindsight really is 20/20. You bring up a good point about finding salvation, and i have to add that it seems to me that finding salvation seems to come as a result of us being in “less than ideal” life conditions. Does God send us in to those conditions to find Him? Possibly. Paul said hard times builds our character.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

finding salvation seems to come as a result of us being in “less than ideal” life conditions. Does God send us in to those conditions to find Him?

Yes...

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20-21​

 

[kcnalp]

God created us all exactly as it pleased Him. The good the bad and the ugly!

 

[Aunty Jane]

God created us all exactly as it pleased Him. The good the bad and the ugly!

What makes you believe that God created us any way, at all? He created the first humans with the ability to pass life on to the next generation....so, we were created by our parents who brought random genomes together to create a variety of humans, with no end of genetic traits going way back in generations past.....so we are a product of our parent's gene pool, inherited from their ancestors, and from influences outside of ourselves.

We either had the freedom to express our own persona, or we were molded by the persona of others....like those who raised us....or those who had an impact on us as young people, for better or for worse.
I don't believe that God had a great deal to do with who we become individually as adults. Circumstance created who we became after our birth.
We can't blame God for any of that....He didn't sit up in heaven pointing at one baby and saying "I think I will make this one a murderer" or pointing to another and saying "I'll make this one a genius". That is rather absurd, don't you think?

 

[Angelina]

I'm thinking that God did what was best to do, with full desire the Man would not fall, but knew man would. I'm thinking that God intends to have a family of those who want to be His family, and giving the choice is the only way to do that.

Much love!

God being God, I don't think he would plunge the world deliberately into sin with millions upon millions of humans through generation to generation just to pull out those who would follow him. If that were the case, he would not bother with the messiahs coming and the new covenant.

 

[Brakelite]

I was listening to R.C. Sproul the other night, I think it was him, he was talking about Satan, and why didn't God just flush everything when Satan fell, and start all over? And just keep doing it over and over until He got a creation that would obey.

I see it that what Satan,aka Lucifer, began in heaven was an idea. It was a political/ideological concept which deceived a third of heavens population, even those who should have known better. But such was this idea, so cleverly disguised, that it sounded perfectly logical to some, and maybe plausible to the rest. That idea was that God was arbitrary. Lucifer could do better. So he started a political party called the Rebels. They thought they were loving and righteous and holy, (I mean wouldn't you if you'd lived in heaven almost forever, was endowed with abilities and insights and good looks that excelled everything else in the universe except God Himself, and even that was close?) But the idea, the idea that God was overbearing, legalist, and unsuited to rule, would have been magnified if God had destroyed Lucifer and his fellows. The rest of the angels, those who thought Lucifer was possibly right but weren't willing to join the rebels, would have then served God from fear rather than love. So the idea had to be proven wrong not only to the angels, but to whoever or whatever else existed in the universe. And that proving, that demonstration that God is love, was predicated on a race of people who would choose to serve and obey God from love and not fear. They would demonstrate that God can be trusted. His judgements, His decisions, throughout this whole sordid affair, will in the end be vindicated. And the final destruction of Satan and his angels, along with all people who joined in the rebellion without repenting, would be justified.

 

[Brakelite]

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to
prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

No. That would defeat the purpose of giving Eve the choice.

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

No

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the
Lake Of Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those
punishments go too far, i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

Not enough information in the question. Eternal torment, yes, too far because I'm that case justice would never be met.
Death, destruction, that would be just.

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that
He would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and
created people anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was
something sick and twisted about God for doing that?

Hardly.

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man

No.

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

Seriously?

7» Was there ever a time when you regarded God as an enemy rather than
a friend?

Yes.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I don't believe that God had a great deal to do with who we become individually as adults. Circumstance created who we became after our birth.

God controls the circumstances you are subjected to.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God controls the circumstances you are subjected to.

That is true up to a point.
James 1:15-17 tells us....
“When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.”
So God does not control the circumstances under which our trials come.....but he can control the outcome if we put our faith in him.
1 Cor 10:12-13...
“So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall. 13 No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.”

God knows our limitations and can rescue us before we reach our limit of endurance.....but having said that, God has allowed many to go to their death in order to prove their faith. What is that telling us?

To me it says that death is not something to dread, but something that can give satan a kick in the teeth because he claims that the fear of suffering pain or death will make us give in to his threats.
Job’s experience tells us what that is all about. His faith was tested to the limit, but in his trials, all humanity are tested as well. The devil made claims about the faithful, that if he was permitted to take us to the limits of our endurance, that we would forsake our God. We can prove that he is a liar by our standing with God through any trial that he permits. If God permits it, we can endure it.