God Interprets His Scripture

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm leaning more toward the two witnesses symbolizing churches since my previous post. But I don't convince myself of anything until I know for sure.

That's good. Don't make up your mind about it until you have studied it thoroughly. To me, the two candlesticks/churches represent the two congregations of Jew and Gentile believers that were made one in the church/body of Christ. I believe the two olive trees should be understood similarly because of the way Paul talked about in Romans 11 that the branches of the wild olive tree (Gentile believers) are grafted in with the natural branches (Jewish believers) in the cultivated olive tree.

 

[Rockerduck]

That's good. Don't make up your mind about it until you have studied it thoroughly. To me, the two candlesticks/churches represent the two congregations of Jew and Gentile believers that were made one in the church/body of Christ. I believe the two olive trees should be understood similarly because of the way Paul talked about in Romans 11 that the branches of the wild olive tree (Gentile believers) are grafted in with the natural branches (Jewish believers) in the cultivated olive tree.

That's good as long as you believe as I do, that this started 1900 yrs ago. I square it like this; the church, the Holy Spirit and the Bible have been witnesses to the ends of the earth.

 

[ScottA]

The idea that the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is not real or physical contradicts what the text plainly says.

Again you misunderstand, and react as if I said something I did not say.

I did not present the "idea that the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is not real or physical"-- but clearly pointed out that the two witnesses prophecy does not contradict what is written of the multitudes in Christ. On the contrary, it explains it.

As it is written "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." And it is by no coincidence that "sheep" is both a proper singular and multiple term. Nothing added, only revealed.

But even this is only a parable, for the two witnesses are "first the natural, and afterward the spiritual", revealing Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have misunderstood me. I did not say or mean that there would be something more coming in addition to what is already written, but that the part of what was written that was sealed (withheld) until the end, would be revealed as promised. Which specifically, is the contents of the little book previewed by John, that was to remained sealed until the end when the seventh angel is about to sound.

I don't think the context of the little book are sealed until the end. I think that the contents of the little book are what was written after Revelation 10 (so, Revelation 11-22).

Revelation 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John was told to prophesy again. He had been prophesying up to that point, so it seems to me that him prophesying again would be a reference to when he started prophesying again starting in Revelation 11.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's good as long as you believe as I do, that this started 1900 yrs ago. I square it like this; the church, the Holy Spirit and the Bible have been witnesses to the ends of the earth.

I'm not going to argue against that since that is basically how I see it. Though you seem to have listed three witnesses there instead of two. Who exactly would you say are the two witnesses?

 

[Rockerduck]

I'm not going to argue against that since that is basically how I see it. Though you seem to have listed three witnesses there instead of two. Who exactly would you say are the two witnesses?

The Church (lampstands) and the Olive Trees (holy Spirit). I put the bible in because we use the Word of God by the Holy Spirit to preach in the Church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Church (lampstands) and the Olive Trees (holy Spirit). I put the bible in because we use the Word of God by the Holy Spirit to preach in the Church.

Fair enough. I see the lampstands and olive trees as both representing the church, but, of course, the church preaches the word of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. So, our overall view of this is basically the same and certainly not worth us arguing over the minor difference.

 

[ScottA]

I don't think the context of the little book are sealed until the end. I think that the contents of the little book are what was written after Revelation 10 (so, Revelation 11-22).

Revelation 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John was told to prophesy again. He had been prophesying up to that point, so it seems to me that him prophesying again would be a reference to when he started prophesying again starting in Revelation 11.

It is indeed difficult to track with what was written of these events. However, although John was told to prophesy again, he was also told “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.” Ultimately, both are true.

Also, understand that the contents of the little book, was not something John himself wrote, but only read. Even so, the contents are written and were announced by John--the contents are already written, and thus are no addition, but were not revealed at that time.

 

[Davidpt]

John was told to prophesy again. He had been prophesying up to that point, so it seems to me that him prophesying again would be a reference to when he started prophesying again starting in Revelation 11.

Which could make John one of the 2Ws, could it not? After all, it's not like the 2Ws are not prophesying in Revelation 11. As a matter of fact they are the only ones prophesying in Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:3 ¶And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


BTW, before you even mentioned what I quoted from your post, I was already thinking that maybe John could be one of the 2Ws meant. Except it apparently slipped my mind until I saw your post here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which could make John one of the 2Ws, could it not? After all, it's not like the 2Ws are not prophesying in Revelation 11. As a matter of fact they are the only ones prophesying in Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:3 ¶And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


BTW, before you even mentioned what I quoted from your post, I was already thinking that maybe John could be one of the 2Ws meant. Except it apparently slipped my mind until I saw your post here.

Have you not read all of the posts in this thread? I have made it clear that I see the two witnesses as symbolically representing the church, so, no, I don't think it could make John one of the two witnesses.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 11 talks about two real people,

Nope.

not just a symbol for the church.

Yes, according to God's definition of candlesticks and olive trees.

Yes, God uses symbols like candlesticks and olive trees in other parts of the Bible

Well, you admit it.... but....

, but in this chapter, He gives very specific details.

In THIS chapter, meaning you refuse to compare Scripture with Scripture.

These two witnesses preach for 1,260 days

What 1,260 days do you think God is talking about here? Literal days? Symbolical Days?

, get killed,

How do they get killed?

their bodies lie in the street,

What street is it? It is a literal street in literal city?

No, the Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is WHY Jesualem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers (Two Witnesses) being dead or lifeless in the STREETS (plateia) or wide space of THIS great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. Selah! Being killed or dead means that their testimony has been silenced by the false prophets and christs. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritualy' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

Acts 7:39

• "To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,"

Jeremiah 23:14

• "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah."

In Revelation 11, the unfaithful congregation is signified spiritually as being Sodom and Egypt because the character of the Church is as it was in these wicked places. Sodom with all her abominations within her did all manner of evil, and in like manner the Church has also become an abomination to God just as Sodom was. The beast has come upon her and she is in apostasy, blatantly having no regard for God's precepts or the witness of truth. Egypt symbolizes a house of bondage. The freeing of Israel from Egypt was used as a figure of believers being redeemed from out of Satan's House of bondage.

Selah!

the world sees it,

We need to read verses carefully:

Rev 11:9-10

• And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
• they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Do you understand this?

Though they surely will deny that these witnesses they silenced taught the truth, they see what their actions have done to them, and recognize that their voice has been eliminated. But they do not repent nor mourn the loss of their truthful witness in the Churches. These people who are from all over the world, from all kindreds (families), tongues (languages) and nations, who see the death of the witnesses in the wide ways do not care about them. We read that they do not bother to bury them. This symbolizes that the people of the world who have come up into the Church have no regret, and they do not mourn for the fact that the witnesses of truth have been silenced in the City. There is no repentance shown for what they have done. THat is why you are hearing more and more people in the church do not care about the truth anymore. In other words, love of God grows cold!

And the unsaved rejoice that the Word of life they brought has been silenced, because these faithful witnesses of God tormented them. And the means of their torment was their testimony of fire from their mouths which would burn them. Their testimony that their sin was not going to be winked at by God, but judged. Their testimony that God was immutable, a God of mercy, but also a God of wrath (Revelation 20:1; Galatians 5:21, 1st John 2:4, etc.) God's Word has always been a torment to the wicked. It's the reason Herod's wife had John the Baptist beheaded. His words tormented her and hatred bred 'anger' against Him. And this is why these witnesses were killed. Their words were that God would send plagues upon the land for their forsaking Him, and that their waters of life would be turned to blood because of their lawlessness. Like today, when Faithful Christians say that the homosexuals can't get married in the Church, or become a pastor of the Church, or the women can't be pastor of the Church, etc. The wicked are offended by it and created anger (murder in heart) against the faithful witnesses to the point that their faithful witnesses are no longer heard or considerde in the church and they would careless. This is the spiritual state of the Church today. Nothing ot do with physical Jersualem or her streets in the middle East. You won't find two men over there becasue you misunderstood who two witnesses are in God's eyes. Period!

Contiune to next post

 

[TribulationSigns]

then God raises them back to life and they go up to heaven.

Listen, how did the Two Witnesses get killed? (hint, hint!). How do they rise from THAT death? And what is the meaning of going into heaven in a CLOUD> What does God define the cloud as?

That’s not a vague picture of the church,

It is definitely the Church, more specifically, the True Christians.

that’s a timeline with physical events that involve actual individuals (Revelation 11:3–12).

LOL! Like two individuals will spew literal fire at people? Humm?? No you need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scirpture to find out what God talk about. Its not what you think it is.

The text doesn’t say “these represent the church,”

Becasue you did not check with other Scriptures for God's definition.

like it does clearly in Revelation 1:20 when Jesus says the candlesticks are churches. If that’s what Revelation 11 meant, God would’ve said it.

Sigh! He already did... :-)

And yes, God gives us spiritual understanding through the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10–13), but that doesn’t mean we turn every prophecy into a symbol.

Say people who don't like hear the truth. Are you going to try to silence my truthful testimony?

Some things in Revelation are symbolic, and some things are literal.

Like what? Show me the example!

The resurrection of the witnesses is described just like the resurrection of Jesus, real and physical. The judgment that follows is also literal. Over-spiritualizing these events goes beyond what is written.

(chuckle). Yes the resurrection of Two Witnesses mimics the resurrection of Jesus, but do you realize that when Christ resurrected, he had not yet come to the Father. Think about it.

So bottom line, the Two Witnesses are two people God will raise up during the end times.

Sorry to disappoint you, but nope.

They will preach

The church preached for 1,260 symbolically days, from Pentecost to the Last Elect.

they will be hated

Yes, the wicked will hate (murder) the Witnesses for speaking up the Truth.

, killed,

Silenced so that the message of Salvation ended.

raised up

Resurrected by the Spirit of Life to prophesy again. This time, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church.

, and taken to heaven.

Fled to God's mountain, standing afar off from Babylon and witnessing her judgment, knowing that Christ will return soon. This is why the Two Witnesses will not ascend to the Father immediately after their resurrection. There will be a period (eg. one hour) for the judgment of the unfaithful Church following the resurrection of the Two Witnesses. It is not the end yet, as this is still part of the sixth trumpet, not the seventh trumpet (the last trumpet). Be sure to read Revelation 11 carefully!

That’s what the Bible says, and we need to stick with it.

We both read the same verses, only the wise can understand and the foolish or natural man wont! Selah!

 

[Marty fox]

So bottom line, the Two Witnesses are two people God will raise up during the end times. They will preach, they will be hated, killed, raised up, and taken to heaven. That’s what the Bible says, and we need to stick with it.

Luke 16:19-31​

​

New International Version​

​

​

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection, Jesus also states that He won’t be sending back any prophets because Israel wouldn’t believe. All Israel needs to believe that Jesus was the Messiah is the law and the prophets who the two witnesses are symbolic for.

 

[ewq1938]

So bottom line, the Two Witnesses are two people God will raise up during the end times.

No, the 2W are two churches and two persons. It's the two persons, called the olive trees and the two prophets that are the only two individuals who are part of the 2W. The two candlesticks are two churches which is an unknown amount of people.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, the 2W are two churches and two persons. It's the two persons, called the olive trees and the two prophets that are the only two individuals who are part of the 2W. The two candlesticks are two churches which is an unknown amount of people.

Two individuals and a company of the Church as Two Witnesses?! LOL. Okay, how do they spew fire out of their mouth? How will they be killed?

 

[ewq1938]

Two individuals and a company of the Church as Two Witnesses?! LOL. Okay, how do they spew fire out of their mouth? How will they be killed?

Most people don't even understand who the two witnesses are so that would be the proper focus here.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Most people don't even understand who the two witnesses are so that would be the proper focus here.

Obviously you can’t answer the questions!

 

[Zao is life]

The Church (lampstands) and the Olive Trees (holy Spirit). I put the bible in because we use the Word of God by the Holy Spirit to preach in the Church.

What you say above agrees with this:

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

 

[Zao is life]

No, the 2W are two churches and two persons. It's the two persons, called the olive trees and the two prophets that are the only two individuals who are part of the 2W. The two candlesticks are two churches which is an unknown amount of people.

I had another close look at this to see why you say that.

You may be correct, because whereas on one hand Zechariah 4:6 says that the two olives trees + the seven lamps signify the following:

They signify the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

The very next verse talks of the headstone of the Temple shouting "Grace, grace".

Verses 9 & 10 speak of the one laying the foundation of God's Temple.

Verses 9 & 10 also link the seven lamps to the seven spirits of God being "the seven eyes of the LORD which run to and fro through the whole earth",

which are also linked in this way in the Revelation - to the seven Spirits before the throne of God, the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, and the seven eyes of the LORD sent forth into all the earth (Revelation 1:4; 4:5; 5:6).

But on the other hand after Zechariah asks what the two OLIVE TREES signify (Zechariah 4:11), he is told that they signify "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".

IMO all the above does seem to be making a distinction between:-

(A) The seven lamps of fire / seven Spirits of God burning before the throne of God, which are the seven eyes of the LORD sent forth into all the earth (one one hand); and

(B) The two olive trees.

.. because the two olive trees are specifically said to signify "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth" in Zechariah 4:11.

And besides the above, Zechariah Chapter 4 is talking about Joshua & Zerubbabel, and the reconstruction of God's house, which would be a biblical type of Revelation 11's "two witnesses".

Another type would be Moses and Aaron in Egypt.

But what confuses me about "two lamp-stands" is the seeming contradiction between the seven lamps, seven eyes of the LORD, seven Spirits of God etc and the "two lamp-stands".

@Spiritual Israelite @Rockerduck @bdavidc

 

[Rockerduck]

I had another close look at this to see why you say that.

You may be correct, because whereas on one hand Zechariah 4:6 says that the two olives trees + the seven lamps signify the following:

They signify the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

The very next verse talks of the headstone of the Temple shouting "Grace, grace".

Verses 9 & 10 speak of the one laying the foundation of God's Temple.

Verses 9 & 10 also link the seven lamps to the seven spirits of God being "the seven eyes of the LORD which run to and fro through the whole earth",

which are also linked in this way in the Revelation - to the seven Spirits before the throne of God, the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, and the seven eyes of the LORD sent forth into all the earth (Revelation 1:4; 4:5; 5:6).

But on the other hand after Zechariah asks what the two OLIVE TREES signify (Zechariah 4:11), he is told that they signify "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".

IMO all the above does seem to be making a distinction between:-

(A) The seven lamps of fire / seven Spirits of God burning before the throne of God, which are the seven eyes of the LORD sent forth into all the earth (one one hand); and

(B) The two olive trees.

.. because the two olive trees are specifically said to signify "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth" in Zechariah 4:11.

And besides the above, Zechariah Chapter 4 is talking about Joshua & Zerubbabel, and the reconstruction of God's house, which would be a biblical type of Revelation 11's "two witnesses".

Another type would be Moses and Aaron in Egypt.

But what confuses me about "two lamp-stands" is the seeming contradiction between the seven lamps, seven eyes of the LORD, seven Spirits of God etc and the "two lamp-stands".

@Spiritual Israelite @Rockerduck

Numerals don't make sense in Revelation because of symbolism. For instance, 24 elders, 144K, 2 olive trees. The numbers do not seem to make sense.