God Interprets His Scripture

[Marilyn C]

That is irrelevant. Is Satan called a roaring lion in the book of Revelation? I'm talking about the symbols that are used in the book of Revelation. So, please answer my questions this time.

In the book of Revelation, candlesticks represent churches.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Why would candlesticks represent churches in this verse, but represent individual men in another verse in the same book that refers to the two witnesses as two candlesticks? Where is the consistency in that?

How are two individual men represented by two olive trees who are also represented by two candlesticks? Is that what you see in Romans 11:16-24 where it talks about branches from a wild olive tree being grafted into a good (cultivated) olive tree?

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.


This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.


This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

You never want to answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers. Why? Explain to me why candlesticks would mean churches in Revelation 1:20, but then in another verse in the same book they would refer to individual men. Please explain that to me in a clear, straightforward way.

 

[Marilyn C]

You never want to answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers. Why? Explain to me why candlesticks would mean churches in Revelation 1:20, but then in another verse in the same book they would refer to individual men. Please explain that to me in a clear, straightforward way.

The scene of Rev. 1: 12 - 20 is of the Lord, the High Priest of heaven attending to the lights of the Body of Christ. Jesus tells us that the lampstands are the seven churches (together the whole Body). (Agreed) The Lord is making sure their light, their witness of Him is true. (eg. Rev. 3: 14)

Then in Rev. 11 the scene is on earth and about the temple of God in Jerusalem. We read of the two witnesses that are symbolically the two trees of oil and the two lampstands standing before the Lord of all the earth. God tells us who they are in Zech. 4: 1 - 14.

There we read that Zerubbabel is told that it is by God`s Spirit, His power that he will accomplish part of God`s plan. Then we read of the two trees of oil and they are the two anointed ones standing beside the Lord of all the whole earth.

In Rev. 11 God is showing us that the completion of the Temple is not just the building, (Zechariah) but the people. And that is to whom the two witnesses are witnessing to of Jesus, His death. resurrection and ascension and that He is the Lord and Christ.

Out of the mouth of two .... The Witnesses are symbolically described as two lampstands (candlesticks) standing before the God of the earth. The candlesticks here represent the light, their witness of Christ.

That is the common thought - their witness of Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

I appreciate the effort at trying to interpret scripture with scripture here, but Zechariah 4 only references one candlestick, not two. The two witnesses are symbolically represented by two candlesticks.

I appreciate your effort at trying to interpret scripture with scripture too, but to me there are too many "if this" and "but this" to reach any conclusion.

There are only two of the seven churches commended only for their faithfulness and endurance without receiving a rebuke for anything,

The way it's written in Revelation 11:4 is the same way that Matthew 26:26 & 28 are written:

ARGUMENT IN SUPPORT OF YOUR VIEW (partially - because of the seven mentioned in the verses and scriptures below):-

What represents whom?

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The bread represents His body, and the wine represents His blood, not the other way around.

Revelation 11:4
These (two witnesses) are the two olive trees, and (they are) the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Are the two witnesses representing the olive trees and the candlesticks? If so, then you are correct. But if it's the other way around - the two olive trees and the two candlesticks representing the two witnesses, then you are incorrect.

So maybe we should ascertain what is representing whom, or who is representing what in Revelation 11:4, because if they are two individual witnesses then they cannot be represented by only one candlestick or only one olive tree, and they aren't only represented as two candlesticks, as the seven churches in Revelation 1:12-13 & 20 are.

And because no olive trees are mentioned in Revelation 1:12-13 & 20, we cannot use the argument of Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree as in Romans 11, because in Zechariah 4 olive trees (which provide the olives which provide the oil for the candles to burn) are seen beside the candlesticks

- and they "stand before the God of the earth" - just like Zechariah 4's two "sons of the anointing".

But Zechariah 4 is all about the building of God's Temple, and Zerubbabel is a type of Christ who builds His churches "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit". (which I assume means not by human might or power):

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev 4:5

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6

For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth. Zech 4:10.

All of the above points to the two witnesses representing THE SEVEN churches (i.e all the churches), but there is also the following:

ARGUMENT THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR VIEW

A BIBLICAL TYPE

In the days leading up to the deliverance of God's people through the sea, Moses and Aaron were God's two witnesses in Egypt, who had power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all (sorts of) plagues, and though it be only a type, they were only two individuals, not many individuals.

So we need to ascertain what is representing whom, or who is representing what in Revelation 11:4.​

 

[Rockerduck]

Revelation 11 talks about two real people, not just a symbol for the church. Yes, God uses symbols like candlesticks and olive trees in other parts of the Bible, but in this chapter, He gives very specific details. These two witnesses preach for 1,260 days, get killed, their bodies lie in the street, the world sees it, then God raises them back to life and they go up to heaven. That’s not a vague picture of the church, that’s a timeline with physical events that involve actual individuals (Revelation 11:3–12).

It’s true that the Bible teaches by the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is confirmed (Deuteronomy 19:15), but that doesn’t mean everything involving the number two is symbolic. God doesn’t leave us guessing here. The text doesn’t say “these represent the church,” like it does clearly in Revelation 1:20 when Jesus says the candlesticks are churches. If that’s what Revelation 11 meant, God would’ve said it.


And yes, God gives us spiritual understanding through the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10–13), but that doesn’t mean we turn every prophecy into a symbol. Some things in Revelation are symbolic, and some things are literal. The resurrection of the witnesses is described just like the resurrection of Jesus, real and physical. The judgment that follows is also literal. Over-spiritualizing these events goes beyond what is written.

So bottom line, the Two Witnesses are two people God will raise up during the end times. They will preach, they will be hated, killed, raised up, and taken to heaven. That’s what the Bible says, and we need to stick with it.

John plainly says in verse 3 and 4 that the 2 lampstands and the 2 olives trees are the witnesses on the earth.

 

[Zao is life]

John plainly says in verse 3 and 4 that the 2 lampstands and the 2 olives trees are the witnesses on the earth.

He does not. He plainly says that the two witnesses are (represent) the two olives trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth".

You're asserting that John says that the two olive trees and lampstand are (represent) the two witnesses.

 

[Rockerduck]

He does not. He plainly says that the two witnesses are (represent) the two olives trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth".

You're asserting that John says that the two olive trees and lampstand are (represent) the two witnesses.

Revelation
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These (witnesses) are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These (witnesses) are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Verse 4 is telling us who the witnesses represent, not the other way around.

There are only two of the seven churches commended only for their faithfulness and endurance without receiving a rebuke for anything,

The way it's written in Revelation 11:4 is the same way that Matthew 26:26 & 28 are written:

What represents whom?

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The bread represents His body, and the wine represents His blood, not the other way around.

Revelation 11:4
These (two witnesses) are the two olive trees, and (they are) the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Are the two witnesses representing the olive trees and the candlesticks? If so, then you are correct. But if it's the other way around - the two olive trees and the two candlesticks representing the two witnesses, then you are incorrect.

So maybe we should ascertain what is representing whom, or who is representing what in Revelation 11:4, because if they are two individual witnesses then they cannot be represented by only one candlestick or only one olive tree, and they aren't only represented as two candlesticks, as the seven churches in Revelation 1:12-13 & 20 are.

And because no olive trees are mentioned in Revelation 1:12-13 & 20, we cannot use the argument of Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree as in Romans 11, because in Zechariah 4 olive trees (which provide the olives which provide the oil for the candles to burn) are seen beside the candlesticks

- and they "stand before the God of the earth" - just like Zechariah 4's two "sons of the anointing".

But Zechariah 4 is all about the building of God's Temple, and Zerubbabel is a type of Christ who builds His churches "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit". (which I assume means not by human might or power):

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev 4:5

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6

For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth. Zech 4:10.

All of the above points to the two witnesses representing churches, but there is also the following:

A BIBLICAL TYPE

In the days leading up to the deliverance of God's people through the sea, Moses and Aaron were God's two witnesses in Egypt, who had power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all (sorts of) plagues, and though it be only a type, they were only two individuals, not many individuals.

So we need to ascertain what is representing whom, or who is representing what in Revelation 11:4.​

 

[bdavidc]

I have purposely picked this above part out, not to take away from all that you posted, but to specifically address these parts.

Whereas it is true that "we are not suppose to sit around waiting for secret interpretations", we are however supposed to expect further revelation until what was sealed of Daniel's and John's prophecies, and the complete mystery of God, is finished. Which were not to come until the end. And it should be clear by God's established method, just how that should come.

So, the second point is, no, "The Bible is how He teaches us now", is not the case. The Bible was not written at "the end", but well before the end and before the mystery of God was to be finished.

As for private interpretations, you and Peter of course are both correct. But that is not God's established method of revelation and proclamation -- which method I have purposely not stated, for everyone should already know His methods--without me being accused of private interpretation.

Your response assumes that God is still giving new revelation beyond the Bible, but that claim does not line up with Scripture. God has already revealed everything we need for life and godliness through His written Word. 2 Timothy 3:16–17 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” That means the Bible is complete and sufficient. It equips us fully. If more revelation was still required, that verse would not be true.

You referenced the sealed visions in Daniel and Revelation, but Revelation 22:10 says, “Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.” What was once sealed in Daniel is now opened in Revelation. Nothing more needs to be added. In fact, Revelation ends with a warning: “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” (Revelation 22:18). God is not still speaking new mysteries to be written down. He has already spoken, and His Word is final.

Hebrews 1:1–2 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.” Christ is the final and full revelation of God, and the testimony of Christ is already recorded in Scripture. We are not waiting for more. Jude 3 urges believers to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” The word “once” (hapax in Greek) means once for all time. That faith was delivered, past tense, not ongoing.

So no, we are not to expect new revelation. God’s established method of revelation is already declared, through His Son and through the written Word. Anything beyond that opens the door to deception. God is not the author of confusion, and His truth is not hidden in secret codes or future downloads. He gave us His Word so we could know Him, follow Him, and test all things by it (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

 

[bdavidc]

This is not a true interpretation. Which should be obvious, because it cannot be reconciled with the multitude who "were crucified with" Christ.

Unfortunately, it would appear that this is to be just another one of those age old debates plagued by private interpretation.

The idea that the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is not real or physical contradicts what the text plainly says. Revelation 11:11 states, “And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them which saw them.” This is a bodily resurrection, witnessed visibly by others. The phrase “stood upon their feet” is consistent with physical resurrection throughout Scripture, just as in Ezekiel 37:10 where the dry bones came to life and “stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.”

As for the claim that this cannot be reconciled with “the multitude who were crucified with Christ,” Scripture never says that multitudes were literally crucified with Jesus. The phrase “crucified with Christ” appears in verses like Romans 6:6 and Galatians 2:20, and in Greek, the term systauroō means to be united with Christ in His death spiritually. It refers to the believer’s old self being put to death when they are born again, not to a literal crucifixion. Romans 6:4 clarifies this: “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” This is symbolic of our spiritual union with Christ’s death and resurrection, not a physical event for a multitude.

So no, this isn’t a case of private interpretation. The Bible interprets itself. The resurrection of the two witnesses is physical, public, and described clearly. The crucifixion “with Christ” is spiritual, personal, and invisible. Mixing those two categories is not biblical interpretation, it’s confusion. God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), and His Word speaks plainly to those who will take it as it is written.

 

[bdavidc]

In order to prove that the two witnesses are real people you need to be able to show how two candlesticks and two olive trees can symbolically represent them. Can you do that? In the book of Revelation, candlesticks symbolically represent churches (Revelation 1:20). Do you take that into consideration?

Honestly, it's a bit silly to accuse someone of over-spiritualizing things that are written in a book that undeniably contains a good amount of symbolism.

The fact that Revelation contains symbolism does not mean every part of it is symbolic. Scripture itself tells us when something is meant symbolically and when it is describing a literal event. In Revelation 1:20, Jesus explicitly interprets the candlesticks as churches. He says, “The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.” That’s clear because God gives the meaning directly in the text. But in Revelation 11, there is no such statement. God does not say, “These two witnesses represent the church.” Instead, He gives a detailed account of what happens to two specific individuals: they will prophesy for 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3), wear sackcloth, be killed by the beast, have their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, and then be physically resurrected and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:7–12). These are not abstract or spiritual events. These are concrete, timed, global events, and the world watches it happen.

The reference to olive trees and candlesticks in Revelation 11:4 alludes to Zechariah 4, where two olive trees stand by the Lord of the whole earth. There too, the meaning was connected to two individuals, Zerubbabel and Joshua, who were real people God raised up for a specific purpose. Likewise, the two witnesses in Revelation are real individuals filled with the Spirit of God to testify during the tribulation. The symbols used in verse 4 describe their role, not their identity. The candlesticks and olive trees show they are anointed, empowered, and used by God to shine His light and deliver His Word. But the rest of the chapter removes all doubt that these are two literal people who will be seen, hated, killed, and raised in front of a watching world.

So yes, God does use symbolism, but He also gives plain, detailed prophecy, and we are commanded not to go “beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). Revelation 11 does not say the two witnesses represent the church. If that’s what God meant, He would have said it, just like He did in chapter 1. We don’t get to change the plain meaning of the text just because there’s symbolism elsewhere in the book. Literal events, when plainly described, must be taken literally, especially when the Scripture gives no indication that they are anything else.

 

[bdavidc]

John plainly says in verse 3 and 4 that the 2 lampstands and the 2 olives trees are the witnesses on the earth.

Yes, Revelation 11:3–4 does say that the two witnesses are “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” But this is not saying they are only symbols. It is identifying them using symbolic language to describe their role and purpose, just as Scripture often does for individuals who are anointed and sent by God. The olive tree in Scripture represents being filled with the Spirit (Zechariah 4:2–6), and the candlestick represents being a light-bearer or witness for God (Matthew 5:14–16, Revelation 1:20). So these two individuals are empowered by God and shining His truth in a dark world. The text goes on to give very specific, literal details: they prophesy for 1,260 days, they are killed by the beast, their dead bodies lie in the street, people from all nations see them, and then God raises them and takes them up to heaven while their enemies watch (Revelation 11:7–12). These are not symbolic or figurative events. They are described as real, physical occurrences, witnessed globally. So yes, they are called olive trees and candlesticks, but the context shows they are literal people who fulfill a prophetic ministry with global impact during the last days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The scene of Rev. 1: 12 - 20 is of the Lord, the High Priest of heaven attending to the lights of the Body of Christ. Jesus tells us that the lampstands are the seven churches (together the whole Body). (Agreed) The Lord is making sure their light, their witness of Him is true. (eg. Rev. 3: 14)

Then in Rev. 11 the scene is on earth and about the temple of God in Jerusalem.

The temple of God in Revelation 11 is in heaven or, at least, is heavenly in nature.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Just like you did with the candlesticks, you didn't allow scripture to interpret scripture for you.

We read of the two witnesses that are symbolically the two trees of oil and the two lampstands standing before the Lord of all the earth. God tells us who they are in Zech. 4: 1 - 14.

Zechariah 4:1 Then the angel who talked with me returned and woke me up, like someone awakened from sleep. 2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lamps on it, with seven channels to the lamps. 3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”

There is only one lampstand mentioned in Zechariah 4.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fact that Revelation contains symbolism does not mean every part of it is symbolic.

That is not what I said. At all.

Scripture itself tells us when something is meant symbolically and when it is describing a literal event.

Not always.

In Revelation 1:20, Jesus explicitly interprets the candlesticks as churches. He says, “The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.” That’s clear because God gives the meaning directly in the text. But in Revelation 11, there is no such statement. God does not say, “These two witnesses represent the church.” Instead, He gives a detailed account of what happens to two specific individuals: they will prophesy for 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3), wear sackcloth, be killed by the beast, have their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, and then be physically resurrected and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:7–12). These are not abstract or spiritual events. These are concrete, timed, global events, and the world watches it happen.

Nowhere does it say they are two individuals. That is your assumption.

The reference to olive trees and candlesticks in Revelation 11:4 alludes to Zechariah 4, where two olive trees stand by the Lord of the whole earth. There too, the meaning was connected to two individuals, Zerubbabel and Joshua, who were real people God raised up for a specific purpose.

There is only one candlestick mentioned in Zechariah 4.

Zechariah 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Likewise, the two witnesses in Revelation are real individuals filled with the Spirit of God to testify during the tribulation. The symbols used in verse 4 describe their role, not their identity. The candlesticks and olive trees show they are anointed, empowered, and used by God to shine His light and deliver His Word. But the rest of the chapter removes all doubt that these are two literal people who will be seen, hated, killed, and raised in front of a watching world.

So yes, God does use symbolism, but He also gives plain, detailed prophecy, and we are commanded not to go “beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). Revelation 11 does not say the two witnesses represent the church. If that’s what God meant, He would have said it, just like He did in chapter 1.

That is false. The symbols are not always explained. It does not tell us one way or another whether the two witnesses represent two individuals or symbolically represent something else, like the church. That is something we need to discern.

We don’t get to change the plain meaning of the text just because there’s symbolism elsewhere in the book. Literal events, when plainly described, must be taken literally, especially when the Scripture gives no indication that they are anything else.

LOL. The plain meaning of the text in the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible. Okay then.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I appreciate your effort at trying to interpret scripture with scripture too, but to me there are too many "if this" and "but this" to reach any conclusion.

There are only two of the seven churches commended only for their faithfulness and endurance without receiving a rebuke for anything,

The way it's written in Revelation 11:4 is the same way that Matthew 26:26 & 28 are written:

ARGUMENT IN SUPPORT OF YOUR VIEW (partially - because of the seven mentioned in the verses and scriptures below):-

What represents whom?

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The bread represents His body, and the wine represents His blood, not the other way around.

Revelation 11:4
These (two witnesses) are the two olive trees, and (they are) the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Are the two witnesses representing the olive trees and the candlesticks? If so, then you are correct. But if it's the other way around - the two olive trees and the two candlesticks representing the two witnesses, then you are incorrect.​

I don't think this is the right question to be asking. The two witnesses don't represent the olive trees and candlesticks and the two olive trees and two candlesticks do not represent the two witnesses. It doesn't say the two witnesses represent the two olive trees and two candlesticks, or vice versa, it says the two witnesses ARE the two olive trees and they ARE the two candlesticks. So, to me, that means none of those things are meant to be interpreted literally (it's not a literal two witnesses, literal two olive trees or literal two candlesticks), but rather the two witnesses, two olive trees and two candlesticks all symbolically represent a certain entity, which I believe is the church.

So maybe we should ascertain what is representing whom, or who is representing what in Revelation 11:4, because if they are two individual witnesses then they cannot be represented by only one candlestick or only one olive tree, and they aren't only represented as two candlesticks, as the seven churches in Revelation 1:12-13 & 20 are.

And because no olive trees are mentioned in Revelation 1:12-13 & 20, we cannot use the argument of Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree as in Romans 11, because in Zechariah 4 olive trees (which provide the olives which provide the oil for the candles to burn) are seen beside the candlesticks

- and they "stand before the God of the earth" - just like Zechariah 4's two "sons of the anointing".

But Zechariah 4 is all about the building of God's Temple, and Zerubbabel is a type of Christ who builds His churches "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit". (which I assume means not by human might or power):

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev 4:5

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6

For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth. Zech 4:10.

All of the above points to the two witnesses representing THE SEVEN churches (i.e all the churches), but there is also the following:

ARGUMENT THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR VIEW

A BIBLICAL TYPE

In the days leading up to the deliverance of God's people through the sea, Moses and Aaron were God's two witnesses in Egypt, who had power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all (sorts of) plagues, and though it be only a type, they were only two individuals, not many individuals.

So we need to ascertain what is representing whom, or who is representing what in Revelation 11:4.​

I appreciate your thoughts here. I think there are other questions that need to be answered as well in order to determine what Revelation 11:1-13 is about. Such as these. Who are the witnesses witnessing to? Why are they witnessing? What are they trying to accomplish? Why are they killed by the beast? If they were two individuals, why would they be bodily resurrected and caught up before anyone else when scripture seems to teach that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and caught up together at the same time (1 Thess 4:14-17)?

To me, the answers to all the questions relate to the witness of the church while spreading the gospel throughout the world while giving the hope of eternal life through Christ to the world. The beast, who gets its power from the dragon, Satan, wants to stop the spread of the gospel, and is successful for a short time, which explains while people throughout the world are celebrating their deaths.

 

[Rockerduck]

Verse 4 is telling us who the witnesses represent, not the other way around.

You are confusing. Yes, the lampstands are symbolic of representing the church. The olive trees are symbolic of representing the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't think this is the right question to be asking. The two witnesses don't represent the olive trees and candlesticks and the two olive trees and two candlesticks do not represent the two witnesses. It doesn't say the two witnesses represent the two olive trees and two candlesticks, or vice versa, it says the two witnesses ARE the two olive trees and they ARE the two candlesticks. So, to me, that means none of those things are meant to be interpreted literally (it's not a literal two witnesses, literal two olive trees or literal two candlesticks), but rather the two witnesses, two olive trees and two candlesticks all symbolically represent a certain entity, which I believe is the church.


I appreciate your thoughts here. I think I think there are other questions that need to be answered as well in order to determine what Revelation 11:1-13 is about. Such as these. Who are the witnesses witnessing to? Why are they witnessing? What are they trying to accomplish? Why are they killed by the beast? If they were two individuals, why would they be bodily resurrected and caught up before anyone else when scripture seems to teach that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and caught up together at the same time (1 Thess 4:14-17)?

To me, the answers to all the questions relate to the witness of the church while spreading the gospel throughout the world while giving the hope of eternal life through Christ to the world. The beast, who gets its power from the dragon, Satan, wants to stop the spread of the gospel, and is successful for a short time, which explains while people throughout the world are celebrating their deaths.

I'm leaning more toward the two witnesses symbolizing churches since my previous post. But I don't convince myself of anything until I know for sure.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't think this is the right question to be asking. The two witnesses don't represent the olive trees and candlesticks and the two olive trees and two candlesticks do not represent the two witnesses. It doesn't say the two witnesses represent the two olive trees and two candlesticks, or vice versa, it says the two witnesses ARE the two olive trees and they ARE the two candlesticks. So, to me, that means none of those things are meant to be interpreted literally (it's not a literal two witnesses, literal two olive trees or literal two candlesticks), but rather the two witnesses, two olive trees and two candlesticks all symbolically represent a certain entity, which I believe is the church.


I appreciate your thoughts here. I think I think there are other questions that need to be answered as well in order to determine what Revelation 11:1-13 is about. Such as these. Who are the witnesses witnessing to? Why are they witnessing? What are they trying to accomplish? Why are they killed by the beast? If they were two individuals, why would they be bodily resurrected and caught up before anyone else when scripture seems to teach that all of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and caught up together at the same time (1 Thess 4:14-17)?

To me, the answers to all the questions relate to the witness of the church while spreading the gospel throughout the world while giving the hope of eternal life through Christ to the world. The beast, who gets its power from the dragon, Satan, wants to stop the spread of the gospel, and is successful for a short time, which explains while people throughout the world are celebrating their deaths.

I've believed for many years that there must be a link between Revelation 11:3-6 and Revelation 14:6-7.

But as I mentioned in the previous post, Revelation 4:5 speaks of seven lamps of fire burning before the throne of God, calling them the seven Spirits of God; and Revelation 5:6 speaks of a Lamb as it had been slain standing in the midst of the throne, and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, and that Lamb has seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 1:4
"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne".​

The two witnesses are standing before the God of the earth (Revelation 11:4).

For a long time I've believed that Revelation 14:1-5 is speaking of the 144,000 following the harvesting of the earth, but the rest of the chapter is speaking about what comes before and leads up to the harvest.

Revelation 14
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

But I'm speculating about Revelation 14:1-5 because to me there must be a link between the testimony / prophecy of the two witnesses, and Revelation 14:6-7.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, Revelation 11:3–4 does say that the two witnesses are “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” But this is not saying they are only symbols. It is identifying them using symbolic language to describe their role and purpose, just as Scripture often does for individuals who are anointed and sent by God. The olive tree in Scripture represents being filled with the Spirit (Zechariah 4:2–6), and the candlestick represents being a light-bearer or witness for God (Matthew 5:14–16, Revelation 1:20). So these two individuals are empowered by God and shining His truth in a dark world. The text goes on to give very specific, literal details: they prophesy for 1,260 days, they are killed by the beast, their dead bodies lie in the street, people from all nations see them, and then God raises them and takes them up to heaven while their enemies watch (Revelation 11:7–12). These are not symbolic or figurative events. They are described as real, physical occurrences, witnessed globally. So yes, they are called olive trees and candlesticks, but the context shows they are literal people who fulfill a prophetic ministry with global impact during the last days.

Zechariah 4 is all about the building of God's Temple, and Zerubbabel is a type of Christ who builds His churches "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit". (which we can safely assume means not by HUMAN might or power).

Revelation 11:4
"These (two witnesses) are (represent) the two olive trees, and (they are) the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

THE QUESTION IS:

Are "the two witnesses" identifying for us who (or what) the olive trees and the candlesticks are? Or are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks identifying for us who the two witnesses are?

In Zechariah Chapter 4 two olive trees (which provide the olives, which provide the oil for the candles to burn) are seen beside the lampstand with SEVEN LAMPS, and they are called the two "sons of the anointing" which "STAND BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH" - just like The two witnesses of Revelation 11:4.

SEVEN LAMPS AND SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD

But the lampstand in Zechariah has SEVEN LAMPS:

Revelation 4:5
"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were SEVEN LAMPS of fire BURNING BEFORE THE THRONE, which are (represent) THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD."

SEVEN EYES:

Revelation 5:6
"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and SEVEN EYES, which are THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD sent forth into all the earth."

Zechariah 4:10
For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel WITH THOSE SEVEN; THEY ARE THE EYES OF THE LORD, WHICH RUN TO AND FRO THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH."

All of the above points to the two witnesses representing THE SEVEN churches (i.e ALL the churches - seven being a number representing completeness).

There are only two of the seven churches in the Revelation commended for their faithfulness and endurance, without receiving any rebuke.

So the question still remains (to me) whether or not these two witnesses are churches, or individuals.

But to me also, the seven lamps, seven eyes, seven spirits of God and the fact that in Zechariah 4 God is building His Temple and Zerubbabel and Joshua are types of Christ = the two witnesses are churches.

But Moses and Aaron were given power to cause water to turn to blood and bring plagues upon Egypt, and they were two individuals.

 

[ScottA]

Your response assumes that God is still giving new revelation beyond the Bible, but that claim does not line up with Scripture.

You have misunderstood me. I did not say or mean that there would be something more coming in addition to what is already written, but that the part of what was written that was sealed (withheld) until the end, would be revealed as promised. Which specifically, is the contents of the little book previewed by John, that was to remain sealed until the end when the seventh angel is about to sound.