God over free-will

[Graceismine]

Man can't have a free will and be predestined. Predestination is the backbone of Calvinism. In order for it to stand a few other doctrines had to be added.

Predestination would not stand without Limited Atonement (God withholding the cross from some of mankind)

Irresistible Grace, man is unable to resist God's call.

Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) unable to fall away from the faith.

If any of these were untrue then Predestination could not exist and the whole Calvinist doctrine would fall.

As far as the free will discussion goes (and it will until the Lord comes) my opinion is that we must go back to the beginning where the angels rebelled and where Adam & Eve chose to follow Satan over God. They chose without outside influence or improper upbringing.

 

[Angelina]

True that Grace,

...also note the in NT, where Ananias and Sapphira were counted amongst those who believed, were baptized and received the Holy Spirit[Acts 2:38-47]...yet they still made the decision to lie to the Holy Spirit by holding back a portion of the price of their land. They had a choice to give whatever they wanted but they lied by saying to Peter that what that had given was the exact price that they sold their land for....

Blessings!!!

Ananias and Sapphira [Acts 5:1-11]

 

[KingJ]

I seek to search the concept of human free-will in accordance with the sovereignty of God. I ask the Lord Most High to use His Holy Spirit to guide this endeavor in the name of Jesus Christ.

I will begin by defining the term "free-will".
When thinking of the term "free-will" one will rightly gain a sense of freedom. Freedom from or to do what you might ask. Let us first set aside consequence, this I will address later. Freedom in choice to choose one's course of action. This is a minimal view which can be extended to all beings including animals. (http://www.iep.utm.edu/freewill/)



First argument:

1. An agent possessing free will can freely choose any course of action.
2. Those agents who's mind is set on the flesh can not subject itself to the law of God or please God.
3. Free-will either does not exist or is only possessed by agents who's mind is not set on the flesh.

This will be my first argument I set out and I will start the post here. This subject is very deep and can be positioned in many facets, and it will most likely take multiple postings on my behalf to complete my thoughts on this subject.

I dont see anything to discuss?

We either accept scripture as the truth or we don't.

Scripture CLEARLY says on MANY occasions that God is NO respector of persons.

My logic tells me that for God to be no respector of persons He has to remove Himself from being all knowing (inherent omniscience) on our decision to accept or reject Him / give us true free will. However He does it, we have to grasp that' it is written' and hence something He will be accountable to uphold.

On your arguments:
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No, we all have. Even as Christians we can still leave God. God has hope for all living to come to Him.

i just would like you to think on a few points also. so as i answer your questions and i have a question then i would appreciate a reply too.
1. God is free to make His choices without consequence or needing anything thereby God has free-will.
for every cause there is an effect. this is proven scientifically to happen in every case. God is a God that is good and always does what is right so he too must obey all laws he put in place. otherwise God would be a law breaker. God is not subject to man's law because God did not put our laws in place but we did it ourselves. for example having to pay taxes to the government and not just to God. if we decide to obey the authority over us then we are responsible to do what they say. if we disobey we will pay the consequences and if we obey then we will reap the rewards. God chooses to do what is right and thus he reaps the benefits and the same goes for us. if we choose to do what is right then we will reap the benefits and if we choose to do what is wrong then we will reap the consequences of our actions. thus free will for all.

I kind of agree. We can be grateful that God is good.

I don't see free will as something that can be applied to a Creator though. Free will is a gift to a creation. God the Creator ''is''. He is everything mentioned in scripture and one-day in heaven we will grasp more of Him and His ways (that will always fall under the blanket of 'God is good'). He does not change His spots. Free will also implies the ability to rebel or not against Him. Who does He rebel against?

 

[HammerStone]

Predestination would not stand without Limited Atonement (God withholding the cross from some of mankind)

The death of Jesus on the cross was sufficient for all, but only efficient for the saved (elsewhere called elect). I'm not trying to squirrel-hole you in this, but the world is not exactly automatically saved by what Jesus did alone. The world is saved through faith in what Jesus did. Otherwise, if Christ's death was efficient for all, that's called open theism and leads to universalism.

Irresistible Grace, man is unable to resist God's call.

The Apostle Paul.

Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) unable to fall away from the faith.

I have wrestled with this subject, and it's the single reason I have not labeled myself a Calvinist. John 6 makes a pretty solid case, though.

As far as the free will discussion goes (and it will until the Lord comes) my opinion is that we must go back to the beginning where the angels rebelled and where Adam & Eve chose to follow Satan over God. They chose without outside influence or improper upbringing.

Well, you can have that hill if you desire, but I think it's problematic to say that God created Satan without knowing that he'd rebel. It's essentially saying God didn't know what he created intimately; he would fall short of omniscience if this is the case.

7angels, just to add on to what justaname said...

When we say "God cannot sin" it's easy to think that some external force restrains God from sinning; that he lacks the ability in the sense that God cannot sin because he is unable. That is not nearly the case. Instead, God doesn't sin because of the fact that he is God; it is his nature. His nature is absolute perfection...flawless perfection.

Even Calvin wrote on this:

“grant [that] thieves and murderers and other evildoers are the instruments of divine providence, and the Lord Himself uses these to carry out the judgments that He has determined.… Yet I deny that they can derive from this any excuse for their evil deeds.… Since the matter and guilt of evil repose in a wicked man, what reason is there to think that God contracts any defilement, if He uses his services for His own purpose?”

 

[7angels]

I apologize if I am not communicating this correctly. I figure God can choose as He desires because He desires good. God does not break laws because He is not subject to any. I believe we were talking about the laws of nature, whereas you can not break those laws if you tried. God is supernatural, think about it super natural. And yes Jesus was God when He came to earth, fully God and fully man. Can you turn water into wine?

i just want you to understand that Jesus says in his word that we will do what Jesus did and greater things. if you are asking me if i am at the point where i can turn water into wine. i believe if the circumstances came up that yes i could do it. i have been a part of growing out arms and legs, straightening spines, straightening hips, opening up the ears of the deaf, and ect. if we cannot see ourselves healing others and see them as healed then it will never happen for us.

second please tell me what law of nature God ever broke? i met a christian who God told to get a degree in quantum physics to be able to explain how the supernatural is possible. he is the one that showed me that every miracle can be explained to a point and it does not break any law God put into place. Jesus was a man(you can trace his lineage back to adam) and at 30 years of age Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and everything he did he did as a man because if Jesus did come to earth as God then we would not of been able to do what Jesus did. and Jesus told us that we would do even greater miracles then he did here on earth. i hope this helps

God bless

 

[justaname]

I dont see anything to discuss?

We either accept scripture as the truth or we don't.

Scripture CLEARLY says on MANY occasions that God is NO respector of persons.

My logic tells me that for God to be no respector of persons He has to remove Himself from being all knowing (inherent omniscience) on our decision to accept or reject Him / give us true free will. However He does it, we have to grasp that' it is written' and hence something He will be accountable to uphold.

On your arguments:
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No, we all have. Even as Christians we can still leave God. God has hope for all living to come to Him.





I kind of agree. We can be grateful that God is good.

I don't see free will as something that can be applied to a Creator though. Free will is a gift to a creation. God the Creator ''is''. He is everything mentioned in scripture and one-day in heaven we will grasp more of Him and His ways (that will always fall under the blanket of 'God is good'). He does not change His spots. Free will also implies the ability to rebel or not against Him. Who does He rebel against?

In order to disprove my conclusion in point #3 you must first disprove point #2. The third point is derived from second point. Seeing you agree with point #1 and point #2 you can not arbitrarily disregard point #3

Nice try but it just doesn't work like that.

i just want you to understand that Jesus says in his word that we will do what Jesus did and greater things. if you are asking me if i am at the point where i can turn water into wine. i believe if the circumstances came up that yes i could do it. i have been a part of growing out arms and legs, straightening spines, straightening hips, opening up the ears of the deaf, and ect. if we cannot see ourselves healing others and see them as healed then it will never happen for us.

second please tell me what law of nature God ever broke? i met a christian who God told to get a degree in quantum physics to be able to explain how the supernatural is possible. he is the one that showed me that every miracle can be explained to a point and it does not break any law God put into place. Jesus was a man(you can trace his lineage back to adam) and at 30 years of age Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and everything he did he did as a man because if Jesus did come to earth as God then we would not of been able to do what Jesus did. and Jesus told us that we would do even greater miracles then he did here on earth. i hope this helps

God bless

First off let me say this is completely off topic but for your sake dear one, God will use me to shed light on this subject for you.

You can not, and will not every be able to turn water into wine. In every circumstance of miraculous occasions it is the Lord that performs them. I challenge you to this research this yourself in the Bible in the case of the Apostles and Prophets. In every case it is the Lord that is working through them, not that they are doing it themselves.

As far as Jesus is concerned, He is the Lord! Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. He is called Immanuel, which means God with us. He received worship and by His own tongue claimed to be God. The resurrection is the proof He is who He claimed to be, God incarnate.

It seems to me you are caught up in a cult, like Christian Science or something, that denies the divinity of the Christ. I pray the Lord God Almighty, opens your eyes to see the truth, which is Jesus Christ. Amen

 

[HammerStone]

second please tell me what law of nature God ever broke?

Virgin birth (no human father as is necessary for human reproduction).
Sun standing still for Joshua.
Jesus walked through crowds and potentially a wall in the gospels.
Just about everything Elijah did like fire kindling from heaven on well-soaked wood.
Philip being moved from place to place in Acts.

The list could go on, but I think those are sufficient from the layman's perspective.

 

[Foreigner]

Both Moses and Jonah would have something to say about God's handling of nature, as well.
And then there's the litttle matter of the resurrection of Jesus, as well.
Perhaps we can sit and discuss it along with the other 5000 who were fed with five loaves and two fish.

 

[Rex]

God superseding the laws of nature is the wrong direction IMO. But what should be looked at in the nature of God, not the nature or natural laws God created.

Gods nature is light we are told that He causes no shadow, in Him is no darkness. We are told that when we sin, "in the fullest meaning of the definition" we sin not against our brother but against God. We are told that sin entered into the world there by definition it was not a contaminating influence from the beginning. So sin or rebellion IMO is that which goes against Gods very nature. The potential was present in the tree of knowledge but man had no concept of good and evil, as I believe it was present in all of the created beings like the Angels, but not the first man. In that I mean the Angels knew right from wrong just as they were not the total essence of the creator, in whom their is no darkness or sin. But the grace of God over looked even then the weakness of creation that did know good from evil "Angels". A condition that one Angel would pass on to Adam. "you shall be like God knowing good and evil. IMO the only way God knows evil is simply stated it is in opposition to His divine character.

The term little gods, or Gen 3:22 "Behold man has become like one of us, to know good from evil". In this of itself implies the freewill or the potential was born to choose another direction, a direction in contrast to the creators nature. Even in the purest sense, man was confined to a maze of choices with a determined outcome he has now become a free agent, he has the knowledge to choose. Did God intend or predetermine this would happen, I believe He did, and as I continue to step out on this limb I'll explain why. The Angels were created as free agents "knowing right from wrong", similar to the little god man became at the inception of knowledge. The intent IMO wasn't simply intended for mans development, but also a testing and purging of the created Angelic realm as well.

The thing that I see when we try to define God as being the source or author of sin or rebellion is you move one step closer to a yin and yang concept, the head and heal of the staff, I see it as a form of dualism in so much as evil is not the heal of the staff but a separation of the nature of God, never being equal or to or having dominion but as God also said "other gods" in opposition by the knowledge, and yet by its created nature still subject to the God that called it into being from the beginning. The knowledge of good and evil is what is in contrast to the creators divine character. The perfect harmony of the original creation was broken when one choose to contrast the pure goodness, sinless God, first threw Satan then he spread it to man. God exposed the week link in the heavenly realm by creating Angels that had a free will. On earth as it is in heaven, so not only is God separating the wheat from the tares on earth, He is IMO also doing the same in the heavenly realm as well. A burning off of the dross which is necessary If God plan is to create free agents that truly love Him as He loves us. Created beings a harvest of imperfect vines that are not in opposition to the owner.

The Scriptures recognize both the sovereignty of God, and the free agency, and accountability of man. Consciousness assures us of the latter. The nature of God, as has just been shown, proves the former. The Bible makes no attempt to reconcile the two... The two facts are plainly revealed. They cannot be contradictory, they must be reconcilable. That we cannot point out the harmony between them is a proof, only of our ignorance, and limited capacity, and not that both are not true." (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p.118).

"Can we reconcile the sovereignty of God and human freedom in his electing grace? The answer is in the negative. We are dealing here with ultimate forms of experience and of thought. God’s sovereignty held in an abstract way and apart from our freedom, or man’s freedom held in an abstract way apart from God’s sovereignty, is a very hurtful and dangerous teaching. We are conscious of freedom as an ultimate fact of experience. We are driven to God’s sovereignty as an ultimate necessity of thought. " (The Christian Religion in its Doctrinal Expression, p. 347-8).

Thus, one way to reconcile God's Sovereignty with the free agency of human beings is to suggest that ultimately, there is no conflict. These two twin truths of Scripture are friends not foes. They need no reconciliation.
Another common way of reconciling these twin truths is to suggest that God is distinctly sovereign over some things in a way He is sovereign over other things. That is, while God, being the Sovereign He is, causes everything, some things He causes only in an indirect way--"second causes" they are called.
Below is a statement from an historic, Particular Baptist Confession:

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree." (1689 London Baptist Confession, underlining mine).

 

[justaname]

The Sovereignty of God is now the next portion I will address. Scripture is full of instances that prove God is Sovereign. I have selected a handful of them to emphasize the next argument I will present. Let us keep in mind our definition of free-will:

From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."

Psalm 103:19
19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.

Proverbs 16:33
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.

Proverbs 16:1-4
1 The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the Lord weighs the motives.
3 Commit your works to the Lord And your plans will be established.
4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Exodus 10:1

1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,

Deuteronomy 2:30

30 “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

Deuteronomy 29:4
4 “Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Deuteronomy 32:39
39 ‘See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Proverbs 21:1
1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Isaiah 63:17
17 Why, O Lord, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.

Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Jeremiah 32:40

40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.





Daniel 4:35
35 “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’


Acts 16:14

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Romans 9:16

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.




2 Corinthians 5:14

14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

2 Timothy 4:18


18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:10

10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.



God does indeed intervene in the affairs of humanity. I pray you reflect on these passages and see it is God who is in control and not you over your life. Truly the posture of the prophet Jeremiah was one of submission Jeremiah 10:23 so why is it so many today think the best posture is self determination?

This leads to my third argument.
1. God's sovereignty is over all.
2. Free-will asserts man can choose a course of action.
3. Scripture asserts every decision is from the Lord.
4. Either scripture is wrong or man does not have free will.


This now is a note to all those who believe scripture is true. Let us abandon this false notion of free-will for the biblical idea of a limited or restrained will, and this we will do if God permits. Personally I am glad to know God restrains my will, because I know if left to my own devices I can do no good but could only continually do evil.



Now I present none of this to try to lay claim of irresponsibility for my own actions nor would I ever condone such an idea. I do believe man does make conscience decisions yet all decisions ultimately are made by the Lord. There is a type of synergy there that I have yet been able to comprehend, and I may never fully comprehend it. It is God who restrains sin in the life of the believer as evidenced in scripture Romans 1:24 Isaiah 63:17, but it is us who need to pray for forgiveness and strength in the Lord.

Also I think the idea of inaction is one of rebellion and not Christlike. To phrase this in another way, some might say, "Well then I don't have to do anything because God just does it all! (arms folded with a big booboo lip)".

This is not the case either. God uses His agents for His purpose. We know that a saving faith is a working faith. The idea is God's purpose is worked in you and through you but not by you. Decidedly by God, prayer is the vehicle in which we communicate with Him, and is how we can intercede on behalf of others. None of us know who God is going to bring through salvation, so it is best for us to assume nothing, and pray for everything.

 

[7angels]

why have we started another portion when we were not done with the last one? what good does it do to have only a one sided discussion? terminating a discussion before something has been decided is kind of ridiculous if they continue to build on a foundation expressed but is not understood.

 

[justaname]

why have we started another portion when we were not done with the last one? what good does it do to have only a one sided discussion? terminating a discussion before something has been decided is kind of ridiculous if they continue to build on a foundation expressed but is not understood.

Please feel free to ask any questions on any portion you desire. I would have posted this as one body but due to the nature of how posting goes, (you can easily lose all of you information you began posting) it was best for me to post in portions and not as one body. Also it is easier to read in smaller bit size chunks as opposed to one huge posting.

 

[Rex]

Then I'll simply say Calvinism has only one eye.

Joshua 24
14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

 

[7angels]

now i have argued my points and before i continue to portion 3 i want to sum up free will. the definition of free will we are using is:

“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."

rational agents- a person who acts or has the power to act by exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense

course of action- a mode of action

are we as humans capable of making a a good decision in order to carry out a plan? i believe i have shown already that yes we can make good decisions. people say because we have outside interference that all of our decisions are influenced so we have no real free will. but outside influences can also be used to help us make a better, well informed decision. many times when we try to guess what is best in order to take action it usually results as a gamble as best. but the more outside influence we get allows us to better confirm what we will do, how we will do it, why we are doing it and ect. but according to the definition being used we do have free will.

 

[justaname]

now i have argued my points and before i continue to portion 3 i want to sum up free will. the definition of free will we are using is:

“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."

rational agents- a person who acts or has the power to act by exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense

course of action- a mode of action

are we as humans capable of making a a good decision in order to carry out a plan? i believe i have shown already that yes we can make good decisions. people say because we have outside interference that all of our decisions are influenced so we have no real free will. but outside influences can also be used to help us make a better, well informed decision. many times when we try to guess what is best in order to take action it usually results as a gamble as best. but the more outside influence we get allows us to better confirm what we will do, how we will do it, why we are doing it and ect. but according to the definition being used we do have free will.

I do not believe you made a case that humans can make good decisions. I say, and so does scripture, that those who are not believers are not capable of doing this. Now we can make decisions, based on man's standard of good, but unless quickened by the Spirit, never by God's standard of good.
I totally agree outside influence can produce better decisions, and so does scripture. Proverbs 12:15 Proverbs 15:22
I suggest you always seek consul from the Lord in your choices.

 

[Angelina]

Joshua 24

14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

I thought of this verse last night also Rex...Well said!

Blessings!!!

 

[justaname]

Then I'll simply say Calvinism has only one eye.

Joshua 24
14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

I have never presented the case that human agency in no way makes choices. My case is against the term free-will and the idea behind it. We can, do, and will continue to make choices under God's sovereign rule. The case I present proves we are limited in our agency and in our fallen state totally depraved.

I should also add we know from history and scripture that they did "choose the Lord." But we also know that the Lord chose them for His own people first. I say this to be able to impose my view that the Lord helped them in their decision. Being that God chose them for His namesake they were destined to continue in God's plan. This again shows that ambiguous relation between limited moral agency and God's sovereignty.

If you continue in scripture you also have this verse:
Joshua 24:19

19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.


I thought to attach this verse also Deuteronomy 7:6-8

6 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 “The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

 

[7angels]

I do not believe you made a case that humans can make good decisions. I say, and so does scripture, that those who are not believers are not capable of doing this. Now we can make decisions, based on man's standard of good, but unless quickened by the Spirit, never by God's standard of good.
I totally agree outside influence can produce better decisions, and so does scripture. Proverbs 12:15 Proverbs 15:22
I suggest you always seek consul from the Lord in your choices.

the original question was not about making good decisions but about whether man had a free will. let us not get into portion 3 yet. my answers were in response to portion 2. i will now move into portion 3 in my next post.

 

[Rex]

I have never presented the case that human agency in no way makes choices. My case is against the term free-will and the idea behind it. We can, do, and will continue to make choices under God's sovereign rule. The case I present proves we are limited in our agency and in our fallen state totally depraved.

I should also add we know from history and scripture that they did "choose the Lord." But we also know that the Lord chose them for His own people first. I say this to be able to impose my view that the Lord helped them in their decision. Being that God chose them for His namesake they were destined to continue in God's plan. This again shows that ambiguous relation between limited moral agency and God's sovereignty.

If you continue in scripture you also have this verse:
Joshua 24:19

19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.


I thought to attach this verse also Deuteronomy 7:6-8

6 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 “The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

I'll just wait until you get past the final stage of what ever stage rocket your launching. You referred to this as the third stage "then removed the comment", would you mind commenting on how many stages are involved before we discover the point.

And If you would be so kind before I and maybe others lose interest

radio Huston that you have achieve orbit with a system summery
I believe it's going to be more difficult to piece together your presentation across several pages as opposed to a single block.
People that read these pages generally respond to the last or the last several comments not many will even look back a page. JMO

 

[Graceismine]

The death of Jesus on the cross was sufficient for all, but only efficient for the saved (elsewhere called elect). I'm not trying to squirrel-hole you in this, but the world is not exactly automatically saved by what Jesus did alone. The world is saved through faith in what Jesus did. Otherwise, if Christ's death was efficient for all, that's called open theism and leads to universalism.



The Apostle Paul.



I have wrestled with this subject, and it's the single reason I have not labeled myself a Calvinist. John 6 makes a pretty solid case, though.



Well, you can have that hill if you desire, but I think it's problematic to say that God created Satan without knowing that he'd rebel. It's essentially saying God didn't know what he created intimately; he would fall short of omniscience if this is the case.

7angels, just to add on to what justaname said...

When we say "God cannot sin" it's easy to think that some external force restrains God from sinning; that he lacks the ability in the sense that God cannot sin because he is unable. That is not nearly the case. Instead, God doesn't sin because of the fact that he is God; it is his nature. His nature is absolute perfection...flawless perfection.

Even Calvin wrote on this:

“grant [that] thieves and murderers and other evildoers are the instruments of divine providence, and the Lord Himself uses these to carry out the judgments that He has determined.… Yet I deny that they can derive from this any excuse for their evil deeds.… Since the matter and guilt of evil repose in a wicked man, what reason is there to think that God contracts any defilement, if He uses his services for His own purpose?”

Thanks Hammerstone. I know the world isn't automatically saved, the "whosoevers" of John 3:16 are saved.

I have wrestled with that also but Limited Atonement is what keeps me out of it. Then I wonder why I even have to think of it. Shows how powerful Calvinism has become within the church.

I don't think I said that God did not know Satan would rebel. I'm sure He did but that didn't inhibit Satan's will to rebel. If I inferred it I didn't mean to.

I agree with your reply to 7angels. Though I sometimes laugh at how we discuss these things as if it was yesterday's newspaper and really we understand so little. B)

True that Grace,...also note the in NT, where Ananias and Sapphira were counted amongst those who believed, were baptized and received the Holy Spirit[Acts 2:38-47]...yet they still made the decision to lie to the Holy Spirit by holding back a portion of the price of their land. They had a choice to give whatever they wanted but they lied by saying to Peter that what that had given was the exact price that they sold their land for.... Blessings!!!

Ananias and Sapphira [Acts 5:1-11]

Modern day types they were. :lol: