God over free-will

[KingJ]

Justaname said: The case I present proves we are limited in our agency and in our fallen state totally depraved

You are not rationalizing free will as a Christian. You should be working backwards from scripture. We need to work from the platform of scripture being the truth. God abides 100% by it. He puts it on His head and lives with it as part of Himself. Scripture says God is NO respecter of persons! (Rom 2:11 and many more!).

How God achieves being no respecter of persons whilst still remaining sovereign and omniscient may just be beyond our mental capacity. If scripture says He is, we have to accept it and agree with it. Even if we don't fully grasp it. We need to accept that He holds Himself to scripture. He does what pleases Him! (Psalms 135:6) and It pleases Him to give us true free will.

Which definition of omniscience do you agree with?

There is a distinction between:

• inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
• total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.

In order to disprove my conclusion in point #3 you must first disprove point #2. The third point is derived from second point. Seeing you agree with point #1 and point #2 you can not arbitrarily disregard point #3
Nice try but it just doesn't work like that.

I have tried to see things from your perspective, but can't agree.The three points are simply not a sound trigonometry equation <_<.

 

[justaname]

I feel it prudent to summarize these posts to stimulate further discussion. I do understand we are on sacred ground here discussing the almighty free-will. I have heard it throughout particular circles that even God will not go against man's free will. With all the evidence of scripture I find it hard to believe that Christians would even believe that, but they do. Enough of a rant though, here we go.

My first case is this, according to scripture the unregenerate is incapable of pleasing God. (cf. Romans 8:7-8)
This automatically, as long as you hold to the inherency of scripture, disqualifies the unregenerate of possessing free-will, based simply on the fact that the unregenerate is incapable of freely choosing to please God or subject itself to His laws. The logical conclusion is the unregenerate does not possess free-will but has a limited capacity of choice.

My second case is one of consequence. The premise is this, if one was to truly possess free-will or even freedom of choice by definition, one must be able to make that choice free from consequence and influence. Man in any perception is incapable doing as such thereby his choices are limited. The only entity capable of such a feat is God, thereby God is the only one to have free-will or freedom of choice in it's truest sense.

My third case is on the sovereignty of God. If it is true, which I believe it is and scripture supports my claim, that God is sovereign over human affairs and God does intervene in the affairs of humanity, then it stands to reason that God can and does trump free-will. Thereby it stands to reason that man does not have a free-will but rather a limited-will, regardless if the agent is regenerate or unregenerate. Man does not have freedom of choice but has a limited capacity of choice.

I will use scripture to illustrate my third case.

Proverbs 21:1
1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Here is a clear illustration that God rules over the heart of the king. The king is not sovereign over his own heart rather God is. (he does not have freedom of choice) Can the king do whatever his heart desires? The answer is yes and no. Yes if God allows, no if God does not. Why is this, because if God decides He does not want to let the king say take an Egyptian wife, God will change the king's heart in the matter. The king then by no means has free-will but is rather limited to God's will. In the case of Satan I think all Christians can agree we are glad this is true, not that God changes Satan's heart, but that God does restrain Satan.

Now lets look at what the prophet Jeremiah says.

Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

What does the prophet mean here? The way of a wicked man is directed by sin and the devil. The way of a righteous man is directed by the Lord. The prophet knows that man is not his own master for he is either mastered by Satan or the Lord. Man does not have freedom of choice for his choices are influenced by sin or righteousness. (cf. Romans 7:14-25)

Now this is the most interesting case that I am making. Humanity is conditioned to evil and is sold into bondage to sin. Romans 7:14 Genesis 6:5
No one seeks after God. Romans 3:11 So then God must initiate action against the so called "free-will" of the unregenerate in order for said unregenerate to decide to seek Him. Acts 16:14

So then this conclusion resolves as follows: No one can come to God unless God overrides their evil will. Every act of salvation is initiated by God Himself not by anyone's free choice.


Note to King J.
Absolute and total omniscience.
As for God being no respecter of persons, as with all scripture I agree. This is expounded later in Romans 9:10-16
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[KingJ]

I feel it prudent to summarize these posts to stimulate further discussion. I do understand we are on sacred ground here discussing the almighty free-will. I have heard it throughout particular circles that even God will not go against man's free will. With all the evidence of scripture I find it hard to believe that Christians would even believe that, but they do. Enough of a rant though, here we go.

My first case is this, according to scripture the unregenerate is incapable of pleasing God. (cf. Romans 8:7-8)
This automatically, as long as you hold to the inherency of scripture, disqualifies the unregenerate of possessing free-will, based simply on the fact that the unregenerate is incapable of freely choosing to please God or subject itself to His laws. The logical conclusion is the unregenerate does not possess free-will but has a limited capacity of choice.

My second case is one of consequence. The premise is this, if one was to truly possess free-will or even freedom of choice by definition, one must be able to make that choice free from consequence and influence. Man in any perception is incapable doing as such thereby his choices are limited. The only entity capable of such a feat is God, thereby God is the only one to have free-will or freedom of choice in it's truest sense.

My third case is on the sovereignty of God. If it is true, which I believe it is and scripture supports my claim, that God is sovereign over human affairs and God does intervene in the affairs of humanity, then it stands to reason that God can and does trump free-will. Thereby it stands to reason that man does not have a free-will but rather a limited-will, regardless if the agent is regenerate or unregenerate. Man does not have freedom of choice but has a limited capacity of choice.

I will use scripture to illustrate my third case.

Proverbs 21:1
1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Here is a clear illustration that God rules over the heart of the king. The king is not sovereign over his own heart rather God is. (he does not have freedom of choice) Can the king do whatever his heart desires? The answer is yes and no. Yes if God allows, no if God does not. Why is this, because if God decides He does not want to let the king say take an Egyptian wife, God will change the king's heart in the matter. The king then by no means has free-will but is rather limited to God's will. In the case of Satan I think all Christians can agree we are glad this is true, not that God changes Satan's heart, but that God does restrain Satan.

Now lets look at what the prophet Jeremiah says.

Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

What does the prophet mean here? The way of a wicked man is directed by sin and the devil. The way of a righteous man is directed by the Lord. The prophet knows that man is not his own master for he is either mastered by Satan or the Lord. Man does not have freedom of choice for his choices are influenced by sin or righteousness. (cf. Romans 7:14-25)

Now this is the most interesting case that I am making. Humanity is conditioned to evil and is sold into bondage to sin. Romans 7:14 Genesis 6:5
No one seeks after God. Romans 3:11 So then God must initiate action against the so called "free-will" of the unregenerate in order for said unregenerate to decide to seek Him. Acts 16:14

So then this conclusion resolves as follows: No one can come to God unless God overrides their evil will. Every act of salvation is initiated by God Himself not by anyone's free choice.


Note to King J.
Absolute and total omniscience.
As for God being no respecter of persons, as with all scripture I agree. This is expounded later in Romans 9:10-16
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

How do you explain the people of Nineveh? Did the Holy Spirit regenerate their hearts? It simply doesn't add up. God wasted His time sending warning to Sodom and Gomorrah? Take all scripture together and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the mystery to you! Stop ignoring / dodging the scripture countering your theory. Come to think of it, there is only ONE verse that you need to grasp on this.

Psalms 136:1 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

You see if God picks and chooses who will go to heaven. Then He has picked many for hell. That is a satanic theory. I can actually give you links to atheist and satanic sites that will agree with you! You need to go pray and spend quiet time with God and learn / grasp that He is good and no respecter of persons. PLEASE say the underlined in your head 1000 times .

Do you honestly see a ''good'' God creating a person for hell? If you honestly do, go to the hospital and tell the parents of a newly born baby that their baby has a 1/100 chance that they were created to suffer punishment in hell for eternity because he is not on God's special chosen list

I sure hope that I am completely miss-reading your posts and will have to eat my post . The underlined in your post is just so wrong. You are certainly not batting for God! I can go into the context of the scripture you post to support your theory but it will be an endless / tiresome / pointless effort imho, since we are not agreeing from the very foundation of Christianity namely: John 3:16 For God so loved the world (everyone), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[justaname]

Romans 9:18-24

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


All are bound for Hell, except those He has mercy on. If you conclude that makes Him satanic, you are no respecter of God.

 

[Graceismine]

All are bound for Hell, except those He has mercy on. If you conclude that makes Him satanic, you are no respecter of God.

He is not saying God is satanic. He means that the teaching whereby God refuses the efficacy of the blood of Christ to some is satanic.

 

[KingJ]

Romans 9:18-24

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


All are bound for Hell, except those He has mercy on. If you conclude that makes Him satanic, you are no respecter of God.

Well it certainly does not make you someone that I will trust teaching my kid at sunday school.

What of babies? With your theory we will do WELL to kill our babies and guarantee them a spot in heaven before they are thrown into hell by a God that shows favouritism. Heck if we kill our babies knowing that hell is a possibility for murder, it is such a noble sacrifice, we should surely increase our odds of God taking us?

 

[justaname]

The main argument against the truth of scripture is an emotional one. Paul knew this, and so do I. God is sovereign and is able to do as He pleases. He and He alone has free-will.

He is not saying God is satanic. He means that the teaching whereby God refuses the efficacy of the blood of Christ to some is satanic.

I do not say God refuses His plan of salvation to some. I said "No one can come to God unless God overrides their evil will. Every act of salvation is initiated by God Himself not by anyone's free choice."

The teaching is this, every human being if left to their own devices would reject God. This is scripture. God must first open your heart for you to accept Him.

Well it certainly does not make you someone that I will trust teaching my kid at sunday school.

What of babies? With your theory we will do WELL to kill our babies and guarantee them a spot in heaven before they are thrown into hell by a God that shows favouritism. Heck if we kill our babies knowing that hell is a possibility for murder, it is such a noble sacrifice, we should surely increase our odds of God taking us?

I do not agree with your plan of salvation for babies. If it is you disagree with my conclusions, please show me from scripture where I am wrong

 

[KingJ]

I do not agree with your plan of salvation for babies.

The discussion of killing babies ties Calvinists in a knot. You are wise to avoid it.

If it is you disagree with my conclusions, please show me from scripture where I am wrong

How about the entire bible? as I have already pointed out 'God is good'.

 

[7angels]

I DON'T know how to use the multiquote to break up your statements so i will use red letters to show mt responses.

I feel it prudent to summarize these posts to stimulate further discussion. I do understand we are on sacred ground here discussing the almighty free-will. I have heard it throughout particular circles that even God will not go against man's free will. With all the evidence of scripture I find it hard to believe that Christians would even believe that, but they do. Enough of a rant though, here we go.

My first case is this, according to scripture the unregenerate is incapable of pleasing God. (cf. Romans 8:7-8)
This automatically, as long as you hold to the inherency of scripture, disqualifies the unregenerate of possessing free-will, based simply on the fact that the unregenerate is incapable of freely choosing to please God or subject itself to His laws. The logical conclusion is the unregenerate does not possess free-will but has a limited capacity of choice.
you are misquoting rom 8:7-8. it does not say the unregenerated (unsaved) are incapable of pleasing God but those ruled by their flesh. now i would like to know something. are we saying no one but the Godly people can have free will?
My second case is one of consequence. The premise is this, if one was to truly possess free-will or even freedom of choice by definition, one must be able to make that choice free from consequence and influence. Man in any perception is incapable doing as such thereby his choices are limited. The only entity capable of such a feat is God, thereby God is the only one to have free-will or freedom of choice in it's truest sense.
first by definition that you posted said nothing about us needing to make choices without consequence or influence in order to have a true free will. if we are going to change definitions in the middle of discussion is fine but please post the reference and definition of this new free will. second are we trying to discuss whether free will is possible or who makes the best decisions using free will?
My third case is on the sovereignty of God. If it is true, which I believe it is and scripture supports my claim, that God is sovereign over human affairs and God does intervene in the affairs of humanity, then it stands to reason that God can and does trump free-will. Thereby it stands to reason that man does not have a free-will but rather a limited-will, regardless if the agent is regenerate or unregenerate. Man does not have freedom of choice but has a limited capacity of choice.
are we talking about free will here or choice? i chose of my own free will to follow God. if i choose to follow God and do the will of God then doesn't that mean that God and i are thinking along the same lines? if i wanted to follow God with all my heart and all my soul then would i make choices that are in line with the will of God? you make it sound like once i choose God the i no longer have control over anything in my life but if a stayed a sinner then i could do as i pleased. also by your own explanation satan should not have a free will either but is carrying out the will of God by making us all sin. because satan is unregenerated so he has no free will. so either you are wrong in your thinking or God is making us sin by using satan. i thought the word teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and so he would never tempt us with evil.
I will use scripture to illustrate my third case.

Proverbs 21:1
1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Here is a clear illustration that God rules over the heart of the king. The king is not sovereign over his own heart rather God is. (he does not have freedom of choice) Can the king do whatever his heart desires? The answer is yes and no. Yes if God allows, no if God does not. Why is this, because if God decides He does not want to let the king say take an Egyptian wife, God will change the king's heart in the matter. The king then by no means has free-will but is rather limited to God's will. In the case of Satan I think all Christians can agree we are glad this is true, not that God changes Satan's heart, but that God does restrain Satan.

Now lets look at what the prophet Jeremiah says.

Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

What does the prophet mean here? The way of a wicked man is directed by sin and the devil. The way of a righteous man is directed by the Lord. The prophet knows that man is not his own master for he is either mastered by Satan or the Lord. Man does not have freedom of choice for his choices are influenced by sin or righteousness. (cf. Romans 7:14-25)

Now this is the most interesting case that I am making. Humanity is conditioned to evil and is sold into bondage to sin. Romans 7:14 Genesis 6:5
No one seeks after God. Romans 3:11 So then God must initiate action against the so called "free-will" of the unregenerate in order for said unregenerate to decide to seek Him. Acts 16:14

So then this conclusion resolves as follows: No one can come to God unless God overrides their evil will. Every act of salvation is initiated by God Himself not by anyone's free choice.


Note to King J.
Absolute and total omniscience.
As for God being no respecter of persons, as with all scripture I agree. This is expounded later in Romans 9:10-16
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

i am sorry but somewhere your understanding is wrong concerning free will or i am. please if it is me explain where i am mistaken.
God bless

 

[justaname]

The discussion of killing babies ties Calvinists in a knot. You are wise to avoid it.


How about the entire bible? as I have already pointed out 'God is good'.

Your baby analogy is absurd, incorrect, and does no such thing to a Calvinistic perspective. Nothing I have posted goes against the good nature of God although it blatantly sheds light on the depraved and evil nature of man. This is disturbing and perhaps this is more where your concern is.

7angels,
I don't know how to use multi quote like that either. I create brakes in the statements manually by hitting enter or return on the keyboard. The trick is you have to do it where there is no text to get the brake in the quote.

I applaud you for your open minded approach to comprehending what I am presenting. It is encouraging on my behalf and thank you in advance even if we don't agree.

Romans 8:7-8

The mind set on the flesh is an unregenerate. This is another term for the non-believer. What is deduced from scripture here is the non-believer is unable to choose to submit to God's law. This means their choices are restricted.
An easy case for this is as such:
If the unregenerate could submit to God's law, that means they could live a sinless life. We all know this is impossible.
No I am not saying only Godly people have free-will.

To your next set of questions, I am afraid I may have further confused the situation as opposed to clarifying things. I introduced the idea of necessity, which is classic to the exploration of free-will. I did not change the definition only explored the agent's ability to make a choice freely.

your quote:
"are we talking about free will here or choice? i chose of my own free will to follow God. if i choose to follow God and do the will of God then doesn't that mean that God and i are thinking along the same lines? if i wanted to follow God with all my heart and all my soul then would i make choices that are in line with the will of God? you make it sound like once i choose God the i no longer have control over anything in my life but if a stayed a sinner then i could do as i pleased. also by your own explanation satan should not have a free will either but is carrying out the will of God by making us all sin. because satan is unregenerated so he has no free will. so either you are wrong in your thinking or God is making us sin by using satan. i thought the word teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and so he would never tempt us with evil."

Free will is about choice. With that said I think I am gathering by your second statement where your confusion may be seated. Free-will is simply a concept or idea used to explain an agent's ability to choose. Free-will is not something you possess like your arm or brain. Free-will is not a part of your personality or being. Again free-will is a nonphysical concept.

I am uncertain if any person's thinking can be along the same lines as God. Isaiah 55:8
I could only pray your choices are in line with the will of God.
A sinner can not do as they please because there is hell to pay.
Satan's will is restrained or else he would be on the throne. God is not tempted by evil but the manner in which God uses Satan is not what is in question here, that is a topic for a different thread. This may be an interesting read for you, it is from the book of Job.
Job 1:6-12

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”
8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 “But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”
12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

 

[KingJ]

Your baby analogy is absurd, incorrect, and does no such thing to a Calvinistic perspective. Nothing I have posted goes against the good nature of God although it blatantly sheds light on the depraved and evil nature of man. This is disturbing and perhaps this is more where your concern is.

I see you are getting personal now just to avoid the question....

Nothing I have posted goes against the good nature of God

If one even whispers that God shows favoritism, the entire bible has flown over their head. Until you actually answer my questions I have to accept you are not up for discussion but rather arrogantly pushing your weak theology.

 

[justaname]

Just for your sake King J

Well it certainly does not make you someone that I will trust teaching my kid at sunday school.

What of babies? With your theory we will do WELL to kill our babies and guarantee them a spot in heaven before they are thrown into hell by a God that shows favouritism.

Why does killing babies guarantee them a spot in heaven and when did I say God shows favoritism?

Heck if we kill our babies knowing that hell is a possibility for murder, it is such a noble sacrifice, we should surely increase our odds of God taking us?

I think the bible is clear about murders. Revelation 21:8

8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Just to show I am not attacking you personally I sought a definition of absurd:
(of an idea or suggestion) wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate:

If you do not believe your baby killing idea is absurd I will pray for you.

 

[Angelina]

There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system.

You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God.

Blessings!!!

A good berean will always search for truth for themselves...and not within the confines of another mans work. If the outcome turns out to be the same, then "Praise God, he was right"

To get to this conclusion for ourselves however, we must renew our minds and remove any preconceived ideas that we may have before starting...

The measuring line should always be the Word of God and not the other way around.

 

[Rex]

There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system. You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God. Blessings!!!

Very nice Angelina you just summarized how we should view and weigh all denominational differences.

 

[justaname]

There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system. You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God. Blessings!!!

A good berean will always search for truth for themselves...and not within the confines of another mans work. If the outcome turns out to be the same, then "Praise God, he was right" To get to this conclusion for ourselves however, we must renew our minds and remove any preconceived ideas that we may have before starting... The measuring line should always be the Word of God and not the other way around.

I am glad you say this because my fellow peers do not consider me Calvinist, as to which I say amen, I am a Christian. All this work I have collected on my own, with the help of the Holy Spirit of course. Truly what inspired me in this endeavor was reading Martian Luther's "Bondage of the Will", as of which I am still reading. As to your point of working from another's ideology I completely agree, but let me add that most everything you come up with, especially if it is Orthodox in origin is going to have been hashed over for 2,000 + years by many theologians probably smarter than you. Someone somewhere has probably had the same line of thinking you have today. If you come up with something new, it is probably incorrect or heretical. With that said it is the theologian's up most priority to maintain an objective perspective when reading the scriptures to maintain exegesis as opposed to eisegesis. This eisegesis is what I believe so many people do today with their holy grail of free-will. The concept of individualism and self determination has reduced the idea of a sovereign God to something evil in some way.

Case in point from King J "You see if God picks and chooses who will go to heaven. Then He has picked many for hell. That is a satanic theory. I can actually give you links to atheist and satanic sites that will agree with you!"

Here the case is made, within scripture i must add, as to which no rational mind should argue; man has a limited-will and God is sovereign over the affairs of men. If there is a point where you believe I am incorrect or this theology is incorrect please use scripture to prove otherwise. Until then I will conclude you are basing your opinion on emotion.

Let me also add simply for conversation sake, Joseph Arminius was a student of Calvin. If you do your research you will see they agreed more then disagreed, and their personal writings are not as extreme as the two camps are known to be today. In fact Calvin never said anything about TULIP as that is an English word and he did not expound on limited atonement either, both of these were brought about by later supporters of his.

If I were to guess the last point I made is what has most people uncomfortable: So then this conclusion resolves as follows: No one can come to God unless God overrides their evil will. Every act of salvation is initiated by God Himself not by anyone's free choice.

Allow me to rationalize a bit here. All humans are evil, our intentions are rotten to the core, for God Himself has deemed us so. Genesis 6:5
There is only one who is good that is the Father in Heaven. Luke 18:19 Mark 10:18

If left to our own devices no one, and I mean no one would choose God freely because that would be admitting we are under His authority and not our own, hence admitting we don't have free-will rather are subject to His. This illusion of free-will Satan is using to blind us is such a source of pride and so powerful we would surrender our eternal soul to keep it, which many do. The fact that God chose to allow you to hear the gospel, pierce your wicked heart, and bring you through the salvation process should drive you to your knees giving thanks. (not saying you don't)

Romans 9:22-24
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Did you pick Him freely or did He freely pick you? I suggest you don't allow your ideology to cloud your judgement and let scripture be the authority.

 

[Angelina]

As to your point of working from another's ideology I completely agree, but let me add that most everything you come up with, especially if it is Orthodox in origin is going to have been hashed over for 2,000 + years by many theologians probably smarter than you. Someone somewhere has probably had the same line of thinking you have today. If you come up with something new, it is probably incorrect or heretical. With that said it is the theologian's up most priority to maintain an objective perspective when reading the scriptures to maintain exegesis as opposed to eisegesis. This eisegesis is what I believe so many people do today with their holy grail of free-will. The concept of individualism and self determination has reduced the idea of a sovereign God to something evil in some way.

Yes your probably right there...but I am not claiming to be smart or clever but I do have the Holy Spirit in me and that is good enough. If you think that these theologians you speak of have been correct all these years, you're greatly mistaken.

Any believer worth their salt will not go by what others believe but what that have learned through their own personal relationship and seeking God for answers themselves.

Shalom!!!

Surely these theologians followed the same path of seeking God out for themselves...so why is it now called individualism or self determination for our others to do the same? or is our Christianity based on what others have already concluded rather than the Word of God?

Shalom!!!

 

[justaname]

Yes your probably right there...but I am not claiming to be smart or clever but I do have the Holy Spirit in me and that is good enough. If you think that these theologians you speak of have been correct all these years, you're greatly mistaken.

Any believer worth their salt will not go by what others believe but what that have learned through their own personal relationship and seeking God for answers themselves.

Shalom!!!

Actually I am saying that theologians have been disagreeing all of these years, yet all claim to have the same Holy Spirit you and I do. I agree we should seek God for answers and gain wisdom from our relationship, yet drawing upon the wisdom of others is also prudent.

Proverbs 12:15
15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.

Proverbs 15:22
22 Without consultation, plans are frustrated, But with many counselors they succeed.

 

[Angelina]

The verses you have quoted are speaking about those who you take counsel with or fellowship with.

I have been a Christian for many years and have been on-line for only 3. During this time, I have found that many believer's follow theologians that I have never heard of before nor have they ever been an influence in my walk with God.

That is probably because the Churches that I have participated in, read directly from the Word. Their mandate being very clear - which is written in Matthew 28:19.

I think that you have a humanistic lean on your theology....

 

[justaname]

The verses you have quoted are speaking about those who you take counsel with or fellowship with. I have been a Christian for many years and have been on-line for only 3. During this time, I have found that many believer's follow theologians that I have never heard of before nor have they ever been an influence in my walk with God. That is probably because the Churches that I have participated in, read directly from the Word. Their mandate being very clear - which is written in Matthew 28:19. I think that you have a humanistic lean on your theology....

Well it is funny you say that because actually I am currently attending a conservative evangelical Bible college where where are being taught how to do expository preaching, hence the reason I am learning about past and present theologians.

Now as for the texts you commented on you actually have no context to base your conclusions upon. With the 15:22 verse I tend to agree with you, but with the 12:15 verse that is not necessarily the case.

I just have to ask though, why do you think there is a humanistic lean on my theology?

Ok I think I need to clarify a little here with a story one of my professors told me.

A man goes into a restaurant and asks what is the special?
The waiter responds steak extra tender. The man says great I will have that. When he gets it, it is the most tender meat he had ever eaten. He decides he needs to know how it got that way, so he asks. The waiter responds the cook chews it for you first.

Allowing yourself to read only other's interpretations of the Bible is like eating someone else's chewed meat, you just don't want to do it.

In the last two years I have read and studied the Bible, by itself, more than ever in my entire life. That is not to say I haven't read various commentaries, but using commentaries is the only way to do scholarly work.

Taken from "Hidden Worldviews" by Wilkens and Stanford
Utilitarian Individualism
This version of individualism focuses on personal achievement and material success, and believes that the social good automatically follows from the individual pursuit of one's own interests.

Expressive Individualism
Worships the freedom to express our uniqueness against constraints and conventions.

The whole American dream concept is summed up here. The whole Nike ad "Just Do It" Individualism asserts they are the primary reality in the universe and this is what is being taught by secular western society today.

In individualism my ends justify my means, I am my own moral conscience, freedom and fulfillment are my right, and performance defines our value.

The fact of the matter is these humanistic ideals are nothing more than satanism wrapped up in fancy terms.

Humanism is something I am against, not for.

This may seem a bit all over the place but I edited in this comment twice and read where you edited in your comment and am responding to that also.

 

[7angels]

i will be using green this time to reply to your comments.

Romans 8:7-8

The mind set on the flesh is an unregenerate. This is another term for the non-believer. What is deduced from scripture here is the non-believer is unable to choose to submit to God's law. This means their choices are restricted.
An easy case for this is as such:
If the unregenerate could submit to God's law, that means they could live a sinless life. We all know this is impossible.
No I am not saying only Godly people have free-will.
the word teaches that even a saved person can live carnally and they are saved not regenerate(rom 7:14). here paul refers to himself as carnal so paul must of been unsaved right? Corinthians have several verses that refer to carnal christians and not unregenerate believers.
To your next set of questions, I am afraid I may have further confused the situation as opposed to clarifying things. I introduced the idea of necessity, which is classic to the exploration of free-will. I did not change the definition only explored the agent's ability to make a choice freely.

your quote:
"are we talking about free will here or choice? i chose of my own free will to follow God. if i choose to follow God and do the will of God then doesn't that mean that God and i are thinking along the same lines? if i wanted to follow God with all my heart and all my soul then would i make choices that are in line with the will of God? you make it sound like once i choose God the i no longer have control over anything in my life but if a stayed a sinner then i could do as i pleased. also by your own explanation satan should not have a free will either but is carrying out the will of God by making us all sin. because satan is unregenerated so he has no free will. so either you are wrong in your thinking or God is making us sin by using satan. i thought the word teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and so he would never tempt us with evil."

Free will is about choice. With that said I think I am gathering by your second statement where your confusion may be seated. Free-will is simply a concept or idea used to explain an agent's ability to choose. Free-will is not something you possess like your arm or brain. Free-will is not a part of your personality or being. Again free-will is a nonphysical concept.

I am uncertain if any person's thinking can be along the same lines as God. Isaiah 55:8
according to scripture i am told i have the mind of Christ(1 cor 2:16). having the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit who reveals the things of God enables me to think in line with God's will.
I could only pray your choices are in line with the will of God.
A sinner can not do as they please because there is hell to pay.
a sinner can do anything they put their minds too. as long as they understand that for every action there is a reaction. for instance if you do good you get rewarded and if you do evil you will reap what you sow.
Satan's will is restrained or else he would be on the throne. God is not tempted by evil but the manner in which God uses Satan is not what is in question here, that is a topic for a different thread. This may be an interesting read for you, it is from the book of Job.
Job 1:6-12

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”
8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 “But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”
12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

what is this posted here for? any specific reason?

if i missed responding to anything then please tell and i'll go over it. i left the satan comment alone because you believe it is a separate issue(which i disagree with but i will leave it alone for now). i appreciate the discussion involved with this op with you. as long as it stays civil then i will continue to share my thoughts. like what was said before 'we may not agree with each others views but we will understand where the other is coming from'.

God bless