God over free-will

[justaname]

I wrote next to your comments in red.
Romans 8:7-8

The mind set on the flesh is an unregenerate. This is another term for the non-believer. What is deduced from scripture here is the non-believer is unable to choose to submit to God's law. This means their choices are restricted.
An easy case for this is as such:
If the unregenerate could submit to God's law, that means they could live a sinless life. We all know this is impossible.
No I am not saying only Godly people have free-will.
the word teaches that even a saved person can live carnally and they are saved not regenerate(rom 7:14). here paul refers to himself as carnal so paul must of been unsaved right? Corinthians have several verses that refer to carnal christians and not unregenerate believers.

I believe you are over thinking the terminology I am using. Regenerate and unregenerate are simply different ways of saying believers and nonbelievers. I do not believe Paul was ever unsaved.
To your next set of questions, I am afraid I may have further confused the situation as opposed to clarifying things. I introduced the idea of necessity, which is classic to the exploration of free-will. I did not change the definition only explored the agent's ability to make a choice freely.

your quote:
"are we talking about free will here or choice? i chose of my own free will to follow God. if i choose to follow God and do the will of God then doesn't that mean that God and i are thinking along the same lines? if i wanted to follow God with all my heart and all my soul then would i make choices that are in line with the will of God? you make it sound like once i choose God the i no longer have control over anything in my life but if a stayed a sinner then i could do as i pleased. also by your own explanation satan should not have a free will either but is carrying out the will of God by making us all sin. because satan is unregenerated so he has no free will. so either you are wrong in your thinking or God is making us sin by using satan. i thought the word teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and so he would never tempt us with evil."

Free will is about choice. With that said I think I am gathering by your second statement where your confusion may be seated. Free-will is simply a concept or idea used to explain an agent's ability to choose. Free-will is not something you possess like your arm or brain. Free-will is not a part of your personality or being. Again free-will is a nonphysical concept.

I am uncertain if any person's thinking can be along the same lines as God. Isaiah 55:8
according to scripture i am told i have the mind of Christ(1 cor 2:16). having the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit who reveals the things of Godenables me to think in line with God's will.

I am better understanding your train of thought here, so yes you can think in line with God's will. A word of caution though, we do not think the same thoughts God thinks. If the Holy Spirit reveals something to you that is not the same as thinking it up yourself.
I could only pray your choices are in line with the will of God.
A sinner can not do as they please because there is hell to pay.
a sinner can do anything they put their minds too. as long as they understand that for every action there is a reaction. for instance if you do good you get rewarded and if you do evil you will reap what you sow.

A sinner could never please God or submit himself to God's Law even if he put his mind to it.
Satan's will is restrained or else he would be on the throne. God is not tempted by evil but the manner in which God uses Satan is not what is in question here, that is a topic for a different thread. This may be an interesting read for you, it is from the book of Job.
Job 1:6-12

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”
8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 “But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”
12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

what is this posted here for? any specific reason?


I posted it in reference to your questions about God and Satan's relationship. Side note: Please don't use that green again it is very difficult for me to read.

 

[KingJ]

Just for your sake King J
Why does killing babies guarantee them a spot in heaven and when did I say God shows favoritism?
I think the bible is clear about murders. Revelation 21:8

8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Just to show I am not attacking you personally I sought a definition of absurd:
(of an idea or suggestion) wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate:

If you do not believe your baby killing idea is absurd I will pray for you.

Absurd theology requires absurd examples to expose it. Debating 101. If your theory fails at an extremity it fails at everything leading to the extremity. Ie. It is absurd to waste time discussing a theory if it fails at the extremity / is logically absurd.

I don't know if you are a Calvinist but your belief so far seems inline. Calvinism teaches that God treats everyone fairly by sending them to hell. For we are all sinners. God then chooses to treat some unfairly by regenerating their hearts, causing them to repent and join Him in heaven.

Scripture clearly says babies will be in heaven. I am not even going to quote it because the thought of any babies in hell is 'absurd' correct. Hence if we have like a 2-3% chance (or even a 10-20%, heck, even a 60-70%) of God regenerating our hearts for heaven, don't you think a loving parent would give their baby a guaranteed place in heaven and accept the consequence of murder and go to hell? PLEASE try talk me out of it!! (no dodging please!).

 

[Angelina]

Your quote

As to your point of working from another's ideology I completely agree, but let me add that most everything you come up with, especially if it is Orthodox in origin is going to have been hashed over for 2,000 + years by many theologians probably smarter than you. Someone somewhere has probably had the same line of thinking you have today. If you come up with something new, it is probably incorrect or heretical. With that said it is the theologian's up most priority to maintain an objective perspective when reading the scriptures to maintain exegesis as opposed to eisegesis. This eisegesis is what I believe so many people do today with their holy grail of free-will. The concept of individualism and self determination has reduced the idea of a sovereign God to something evil in some way.

You believe the word of God is the truth? then why not read it for yourself instead of relying on others? If theologians regurgitate a question that had been rehashed thousands of years before, why does it still remain unanswered. The concept you point out regarding free will can also be said for those who oppose it.

Here's an example of God's Sovereignty vs Free Will, This is a true case scenario. A family member or friend , who is a believer has just committed suicide.

God's sovereignty - God knew that he/she was going to kill themselves and brought them into being just for that specific purpose. Some how it should bring glory to God?
Free Will - The person makes choice to do that because they cannot logically see their way out of a situation, even though they know that it is wrong...

Well it is funny you say that because actually I am currently attending a conservative evangelical Bible college where where are being taught how to do expository preaching, hence the reason I am learning about past and present theologians.

Ahhh, now it's all beginning to make sense....

Now as for the texts you commented on you actually have no context to base your conclusions upon. With the 15:22 verse I tend to agree with you, but with the 12:15 verse that is not necessarily the case.

When people quote scripture it's usually because they are trying to back up something they are saying ...not in a round about way.

This may seem a bit all over the place but I edited in this comment twice and read where you edited in your comment and am responding to that also.

Let me clarify something here..I cannot edit anything at the moment because of computer is having problems with editing...so I do not know what you are referring to???

I hardly know anything about theologians or their belief systems but my lack of knowledge of their exegesis has never, ever hindered me from leading many souls to the cross of salvation nor has it stopped God from putting me on the mission field or for healing, counseling and deliverance, evangelism or anything else he has chosen.

You and I have different ideas about what Christianity is and that is very obvious to me. So I will say good bye and hope that your course enables you to somehow save souls down the road...which is the last word Jesus left for us to do and the main reason why we are still here after salvation.

Goodbye!

 

[Graceismine]

Very well argued Angelina. I agree that we must find the truth for ourselves through the Berean way. However God has gifted the church with teachers along with evangelists. pastors and prophets. I believe that is where those who are being discipled need to pray for wisdom and discernment.

I doubt very much that any of us have opened the Bible and come up with the answers on our own. Yet we have, through the teachings of men who have been able to exposit the Scriptures illuminated by the Holy Spirit, come to the same conclusions regarding things salvific.

It is an amazing and supernatural thing that we are one in our faith in the doctrines that we uphold as Christians, when we are so free to think whatever we like.

The true faith is always being challenged by doctrines that come solely from the minds of men and it is those that lead the sheep astray.

I feel somewhat annoyed that at one stage in my walk I had to decide whether or not I was a Calvinist, such is the power the teaching has within the church today.


Justaname said

I do not say God refuses His plan of salvation to some. I said "No one can come to God unless God overrides their evil will. Every act of salvation is initiated by God Himself not by anyone's free choice."

The teaching is this, every human being if left to their own devices would reject God. This is scripture. God must first open your heart for you to accept Him

That is a very good explanation of irresistible grace I think it's called.

You assume however that because man is depraved he is unable to respond to the gospel and must be regenerated first. In other words you are writing into Scripture something that isn't there. Believers, not unbelievers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again He went on to say Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Thus the new birth is subsequent to faith. Believing comes first then the new birth.

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Please note they did not say, "be born again so that you can believe to be saved". They said BELIEVE then you will be saved (regenerated). I disagree wholeheartedly with you on this because the Holy Spirit is given to believers not unbelievers and it is He who regenerates.

 

[justaname]

Your quote

You believe the word of God is the truth? then why not read it for yourself instead of relying on others?

In this you are inferring I have not. You do not know anything about my Bible study habits so why would you make a comment about them. With this way of thinking I could say, why go to church and listen to your pastor? You have the bible and the Holy Spirit that is enough. He is a type of theologian you know.

To not investigate what others think about a topic is self limiting. You can gain all the knowledge an author has on a subject, which may have taken them years to compile and thousands of dollars to pay for their education, by simply reading the book they have written. Reading others thoughts though is like eating fish, you have to pick out the bones.

BTW How is this even on topic? If you haven't noticed, instead of staying on topic and debating the issue you have turned to attacking me.

If theologians regurgitate a question that had been rehashed thousands of years before, why does it still remain unanswered.

The very reason theologians are continuing to study these questions until solutions are reasonably found.

The concept you point out regarding free will can also be said for those who oppose it.

Here's an example of God's Sovereignty vs Free Will, This is a true case scenario. A family member or friend , who is a believer has just committed suicide.

I am honestly sorry to hear of your loss and I grieve with you.

God's sovereignty - God knew that he/she was going to kill themselves and brought them into being just for that specific purpose.

This is where you are wrong, the suicide is not the only reason God brought that person into being, although that person never fell out out God's purpose.

Some how it should bring glory to God?

I never said God is given glory in cases of suicide.

Free Will - The person makes choice to do that because they cannot logically see their way out of a situation, even though they know that it is wrong...

Sin is an evident fact of life, and so are bad choices.

Ahhh, now it's all beginning to make sense....


When people quote scripture it's usually because they are trying to back up something they are saying ...not in a round about way.

I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt with the Proverbs 15:22 scripture.

Let me clarify something here..I cannot edit anything at the moment because of computer is having problems with editing...so I do not know what you are referring to???

I must have missed the bottom portion of your post the first time I read it.

I hardly know anything about theologians or their belief systems but my lack of knowledge of their exegesis has never, ever hindered me from leading many souls to the cross of salvation nor has it stopped God from putting me on the mission field or for healing, counseling and deliverance, evangelism or anything else he has chosen.

And I have not made a case against you because you don't know about theologians, why do you make a case against me because I am educating myself? And what does this have to do with God being sovereign over free-will?

You and I have different ideas about what Christianity is and that is very obvious to me.

I can only pray you are wrong in your estimation. I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ who is the Son of God and retains all sovereign authority over all of creation, in both the seen and unseen. If you believe something different I will pray for you.

So I will say good bye and hope that your course enables you to somehow save souls down the road...which is the last word Jesus left for us to do and the main reason why we are still here after salvation.

Goodbye!

You have never used any scripture to argue anything different from what I have posted. In fact you have attacked me personally, unwarranted and without any grounds. You assumed I was using another man's theology, which I did not. All the work I presented was collected on my own affairs. You have almost accused me of plagiarism here and again you have no grounds for your accusations. It seems you let your emotions get the best of you.

Very well argued Angelina.

Here I can't agree. None of what she said was on topic.

I agree that we must find the truth for ourselves through the Berean way. However God has gifted the church with teachers along with evangelists. pastors and prophets. I believe that is where those who are being discipled need to pray for wisdom and discernment.

Here I agree with the totality of your statement although I have been painted in a different manner.

I doubt very much that any of us have opened the Bible and come up with the answers on our own. Yet we have, through the teachings of men who have been able to exposit the Scriptures illuminated by the Holy Spirit, come to the same conclusions regarding things salvific.

It is an amazing and supernatural thing that we are one in our faith in the doctrines that we uphold as Christians, when we are so free to think whatever we like.

The true faith is always being challenged by doctrines that come solely from the minds of men and it is those that lead the sheep astray.

I feel somewhat annoyed that at one stage in my walk I had to decide whether or not I was a Calvinist, such is the power the teaching has within the church today.


Justaname said


That is a very good explanation of irresistible grace I think it's called.

Actually I am not making a case for irresistible grace.

You assume however that because man is depraved he is unable to respond to the gospel and must be regenerated first. In other words you are writing into Scripture something that isn't there. Believers, not unbelievers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I agree unbelievers are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but what do you do with this scripture.
Genesis 6:5

You see there must be a transition point from the current state of the non-believer that enables him to come to belief. That does not necessitate the Holy Spirit indwelling the agent, but it does necessitate an act of God.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again He went on to say Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Thus the new birth is subsequent to faith. Believing comes first then the new birth.

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Please note they did not say, "be born again so that you can believe to be saved". They said BELIEVE then you will be saved (regenerated). I disagree wholeheartedly with you on this because the Holy Spirit is given to believers not unbelievers and it is He who regenerates.

Again you are the one inserting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit not me.

Absurd theology requires absurd examples to expose it. Debating 101. If your theory fails at an extremity it fails at everything leading to the extremity. Ie. It is absurd to waste time discussing a theory if it fails at the extremity / is logically absurd.

No that is childish 101

I don't know if you are a Calvinist but your belief so far seems inline. Calvinism teaches that God treats everyone fairly by sending them to hell. For we are all sinners. God then chooses to treat some unfairly by regenerating their hearts, causing them to repent and join Him in heaven.

Yeah that is nothing like what John Calvin taught.

Scripture clearly says babies will be in heaven.

No it does not. The closest statement you will find regarding this subject is actually given by King David when grieving his child.

I am not even going to quote it because the thought of any babies in hell is 'absurd' correct. Hence if we have like a 2-3% chance (or even a 10-20%, heck, even a 60-70%) of God regenerating our hearts for heaven, don't you think a loving parent would give their baby a guaranteed place in heaven and accept the consequence of murder and go to hell? PLEASE try talk me out of it!! (no dodging please!).

Let me first say killing babies has nothing to do with our topic. Your twisted logic does nothing to support your case because the argument can be made in the reverse. What if your child never chooses God?

 

[KingJ]

No that is childish 101
Yeah that is nothing like what John Calvin taught.
No it does not. The closest statement you will find regarding this subject is actually given by King David when grieving his child.
Let me first say killing babies has nothing to do with our topic. Your twisted logic does nothing to support your case because the argument can be made in the reverse. What if your child never chooses God?

Dodging 101!

Don't pass the ball to me until you have given your best motivation to me, to not kill my baby. Counsel me.

This is now the 3rd time I am asking.....It is directly inline with the topic!!!

No it does not.

You don't believe babies go straight to heaven if they die ?
Please re-read your quoted definition on absurdity!!

 

[justaname]

Dodging 101!

Don't pass the ball to me until you have given your best motivation to me, to not kill my baby. Counsel me.

This is now the 3rd time I am asking.....


What?? You don't believe babies go straight to heaven if they die ?
Please re-read you quoted definition on absurdity!!

Ok now you resorted to claiming I made statements that I did not.

Your quote:
Scripture clearly says babies will be in heaven.

My quote:
No it does not. The closest statement you will find regarding this subject is actually given by King David when grieving his child.

Your quote:
Pretend you are giving counselling to someone about to kill their baby. Don't pass the ball to me until you have given your best motivation to me, to not kill my baby.

My response:
If you kill your baby you will go to jail.

 

[KingJ]

Ok now you resorted to claiming I made statements that I did not.

Your quote:
Scripture clearly says babies will be in heaven.

My quote:
No it does not. The closest statement you will find regarding this subject is actually given by King David when grieving his child.

Your quote:
Pretend you are giving counselling to someone about to kill their baby. Don't pass the ball to me until you have given your best motivation to me, to not kill my baby.

My response:
If you kill your baby you will go to jail.

I really do wish you would stop going off at tangents and just answer the question properly! Heaven for babies statement did not require you to say anything unless you disagreed with it....

Your response: If you kill your baby you will go to jail.

Is that your final answer? Is that supposed to stop me? You sure you can't do better? You can rationalize free will but you can't provide me with some rationalization that is greater then my good desire to see my baby guaranteed a place in heaven! Your answer is absurd. You are dragging this out unnecessarily.

If you were a counsellor, my baby would be dead.

 

[justaname]

Your game here is very distracting and adds nothing to the discussion. Unless you want to use scripture to disprove anything I have used scripture to prove you are wasting everyones time.

 

[KingJ]

Your game here is very distracting and adds nothing to the discussion. Unless you want to use scripture to disprove anything I have used scripture to prove you are wasting everyones time.

Oh my, you continue to dodge. If you grasp the truth on free will the answer is DEAD OBVIOUS. If you don't, any answer given is simply ABSURD.

It takes one post, one sentence to write. Just try and answer it OR acknowledge that you cannot think of a sane answer and you should be the last to counsel someone about to kill their baby. Saying its murder or they will go to jail, will just not cut it. I know its murder and I know I will go to jail, duh! BUT I believe my baby will be gauranteed eternity in heaven, WHERE am I wrong in my understanding of what is ''good'' and Christian?

 

[Angelina]

Grace
Very well argued Angelina. I agree that we must find the truth for ourselves through the Berean way. However God has gifted the church with teachers along with evangelists. pastors and prophets. I believe that is where those who are being discipled need to pray for wisdom and discernment.

Yes, this is true - but do you think that most of these guys have based their understanding of the Word by faith or through thoughtful reasoning?

Grace
I doubt very much that any of us have opened the Bible and come up with the answers on our own. Yet we have, through the teachings of men who have been able to exposit the Scriptures illuminated by the Holy Spirit, come to the same conclusions regarding things salvific.

I'm sorry, I did not know the word of God before I was saved. I was saved by God's divine intervention and grew through a personal relationship with him. Many years later, I went to Church and learned what the bible said about him which was cool because It only confirmed what I already knew.

Grace
I feel somewhat annoyed that at one stage in my walk I had to decide whether or not I was a Calvinist, such is the power the teaching has within the church today.

That is unusual...I have not come across a Church in my area that preaches what Calvin believes or anyone else believes, accept perhaps Smiths Wiggleworth but that man of God was an evangelist slash healer. I have never heard of the guy until I became a member of these on-line forums.

Justa
To not investigate what others think about a topic is self limiting. You can gain all the knowledge an author has on a subject, which may have taken them years to compile and thousands of dollars to pay for their education, by simply reading the book they have written. Reading others thoughts though is like eating fish, you have to pick out the bones.

That depends on what you are looking for...

Justa
BTW How is this even on topic? If you haven't noticed, instead of staying on topic and debating the issue you have turned to attacking me.

I made this statement...

My quote
There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system. You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God. Blessings!!!

A good berean will always search for truth for themselves...and not within the confines of another mans work. If the outcome turns out to be the same, then "Praise God, he was right" To get to this conclusion for ourselves however, we must renew our minds and remove any preconceived ideas that we may have before starting... The measuring line should always be the Word of God and not the other way around.

It is you who had taken it off track and I.m not attacking you at all

me
If theologians regurgitate a question that had been rehashed thousands of years before, why does it still remain unanswered.
Justa
The very reason theologians are continuing to study these questions until solutions are reasonably found.
...and the very reason why I quoted the statement above..

Me
The concept you point out regarding free will can also be said for those who oppose it.
Here's an example of God's Sovereignty vs Free Will, This is a true case scenario. A family member or friend , who is a believer has just committed suicide.
justa
I am honestly sorry to hear of your loss and I grieve with you

I was in a counseling position at that time...not my family or friend but thanks.

Me
God's sovereignty - God knew that he/she was going to kill themselves and brought them into being just for that specific purpose.
Justa
This is where you are wrong, the suicide is not the only reason God brought that person into being, although that person never fell out out God's purpose.

Please clarify....God's purpose is to allow someone to kill themselves because it's his sovereign will how?

Me
Free Will - The person makes choice to do that because they cannot logically see their way out of a situation, even though they know that it is wrong...
Justa
Sin is an evident fact of life, and so are bad choices.

...but that is obviously not God/s sovereignty working here but rather man's free will.

Justa
And I have not made a case against you because you don't know about theologians, why do you make a case against me because I am educating myself? And what does this have to do with God being sovereign over free-will?

Because of the point you made here...

Justa
As to your point of working from another's ideology I completely agree, but let me add that most everything you come up with, especially if it is Orthodox in origin is going to have been hashed over for 2,000 + years by many theologians probably smarter than you. Someone somewhere has probably had the same line of thinking you have today. If you come up with something new, it is probably incorrect or heretical. With that said it is the theologian's up most priority to maintain an objective perspective when reading the scriptures to maintain exegesis as opposed to eisegesis. This eisegesis is what I believe so many people do today with their holy grail of free-will. The concept of individualism and self determination has reduced the idea of a sovereign God to something evil in some way.

We are saved by grace through faith. It is an individualistic walk not a corporate one although we are corporate as a body of believers, we weren't saved corporately. One day each of us will stand before the throne of God and be accountable to him as individuals not as a body.

justa
You have never used any scripture to argue anything different from what I have posted. In fact you have attacked me personally, unwarranted and without any grounds. You assumed I was using another man's theology, which I did not. All the work I presented was collected on my own affairs. You have almost accused me of plagiarism here and again you have no grounds for your accusations. It seems you let your emotions get the best of you.

I didn't come here to argue, just to make this point...

My quote

There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system. You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God. Blessings!!!

A good berean will always search for truth for themselves...and not within the confines of another mans work. If the outcome turns out to be the same, then "Praise God, he was right" To get to this conclusion for ourselves however, we must renew our minds and remove any preconceived ideas that we may have before starting... The measuring line should always be the Word of God and not the other way around.

It was you who decided to carry on from here....I have not accused you of plagiarism because I didn't bother to read your stuff. I just posted my thoughts on the O/P that's all. Now whose being emotional ')

Bless ya! and again , bye!

 

[justaname]

Your quote

Quote

There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system. You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God. Blessings!!!

A good berean will always search for truth for themselves...and not within the confines of another mans work. If the outcome turns out to be the same, then "Praise God, he was right" To get to this conclusion for ourselves however, we must renew our minds and remove any preconceived ideas that we may have before starting... The measuring line should always be the Word of God and not the other way around.

It was you who decided to carry on from here....I have not accused you of plagiarism because I didn't bother to read your stuff. I just posted my thoughts on the O/P that's all. Now whose being emotional ')

With this post you are inferring I am guilty of working from another man's theology. You are also inferring I am not a good berean, and that what is posted is another man's work, plagiarism. From your own admission you are attacking me unwarranted because you did not even bother to read what I posted.

 

[Angelina]

With this post you are inferring I am guilty of working from another man's theology. You are also inferring I am not a good berean, and that what is posted is another man's work, plagiarism. From your own admission you are attacking me unwarranted because you did not even bother to read what I posted.

You are not the only person reading this thread...That is why I posted it. It's not always about you.

Please read it again but this time without any personal bias because that was the mind I had when posting it

There will never be an agreement on this topic because it is already set within a theology that is incorrect to say the least. You cannot work from another man's ideology and think that it will somehow bring everyone to the same conclusion. That is how the JWs and Mormon's work when trying to bring another possible adherent into their fold. They work from a veiwpoint of another mans belief system. You have to begin with the question "What is free will?" and then discuss it without the influence of other sources and within the framework of the Word of God. Blessings!!!

A good berean will always search for truth for themselves...and not within the confines of another mans work. If the outcome turns out to be the same, then "Praise God, he was right" To get to this conclusion for ourselves however, we must renew our minds and remove any preconceived ideas that we may have before starting... The measuring line should always be the Word of God and not the other way around.

Bless you and I'm awaiting some answers that I have asked in the previous post...

PS: I was actually talking about Calvin and Luther and others like him, not you.

 

[justaname]

Statement in question
This eisegesis is what I believe so many people do today with their holy grail of free-will. The concept of individualism and self determination has reduced the idea of a sovereign God to something evil in some way.


Your response
We are saved by grace through faith. It is an individualistic walk not a corporate one although we are corporate as a body of believers, we weren't saved corporately. One day each of us will stand before the throne of God and be accountable to him as individuals not as a body.

My reasoning

Taken from "Hidden Worldviews" by Wilkens and Stanford
Utilitarian Individualism
This version of individualism focuses on personal achievement and material success, and believes that the social good automatically follows from the individual pursuit of one's own interests.

Expressive Individualism
Worships the freedom to express our uniqueness against constraints and conventions.

The whole American dream concept is summed up here. The whole Nike ad "Just Do It" Individualism asserts they are the primary reality in the universe and this is what is being taught by secular western society today.

In individualism my ends justify my means, I am my own moral conscience, freedom and fulfillment are my right, and performance defines our value.

The fact of the matter is these humanistic ideals are nothing more than satanism wrapped up in fancy terms.

My final response
I believe you are understanding something different then what I intended to state, I should have been more clear in my initial statement.

Your Quote
God's sovereignty - God knew that he/she was going to kill themselves and brought them into being just for that specific purpose.
Justa
This is where you are wrong, the suicide is not the only reason God brought that person into being, although that person never fell out out God's purpose.

Please clarify....God's purpose is to allow someone to kill themselves because it's his sovereign will how?

Scripture is full of instances that refer to God's sovereignty, here I think we can agree. We currently face the ugly conditions of evil in this world, this is self evident. This in no way contradicts the fact that God is good, nor that He is sovereign.

What you are ultimately asking is why does God allow evil and how does that fit in His purpose. Theologians have been facing this question throughout the centuries and frankly atheists use this as an argument against the existence of a good God.

To answer this question is to first understand that we are finite, flawed human beings attempting to understand why a perfect infinite being, God, chooses to allow evil.

Here I like the answer given by Joseph to his brothers.
Genesis 50:20
19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place?
20 “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Just because we do not see the good in a situation does not mean there is no good. In this instance we are to trust God.

You are correct in stating that I am not the only one reading this thread, but I did construct it. That posting you posted makes inference to me weather you are to admit it or not. I do not believe it is all about me, it is all about Jesus.

 

[Rex]

With this post you are inferring I am guilty of working from another man's theology. You are also inferring I am not a good berean, and that what is posted is another man's work, plagiarism. From your own admission you are attacking me unwarranted because you did not even bother to read what I posted.

I agree with her, whether it is intent or simply by implication of speaking the truth Angelina is calling your bluff. Your clearly basing your apologetic position on Calvinism.
Matthew 3:2

My reasoning

Taken from "Hidden Worldviews" by Wilkens and Stanford
Utilitarian Individualism
This version of individualism focuses on personal achievement and material success, and believes that the social good automatically follows from the individual pursuit of one's own interests.

Your right in this statement it is a bit all over the place, its an oxymoron and I see the same source mentioned that you listed as your reason above.

Well it is funny you say that because actually I am currently attending a conservative evangelical Bible college where where are being taught how to do expository preaching, hence the reason I am learning about past and present theologians.

Now as for the texts you commented on you actually have no context to base your conclusions upon. With the 15:22 verse I tend to agree with you, but with the 12:15 verse that is not necessarily the case.

I just have to ask though, why do you think there is a humanistic lean on my theology?

Ok I think I need to clarify a little here with a story one of my professors told me.

A man goes into a restaurant and asks what is the special?
The waiter responds steak extra tender. The man says great I will have that. When he gets it, it is the most tender meat he had ever eaten. He decides he needs to know how it got that way, so he asks. The waiter responds the cook chews it for you first.

Allowing yourself to read only other's interpretations of the Bible is like eating someone else's chewed meat, you just don't want to do it.

In the last two years I have read and studied the Bible, by itself, more than ever in my entire life. That is not to say I haven't read various commentaries, but using commentaries is the only way to do scholarly work.

Taken from "Hidden Worldviews" by Wilkens and Stanford
Utilitarian Individualism
This version of individualism focuses on personal achievement and material success, and believes that the social good automatically follows from the individual pursuit of one's own interests.

Expressive Individualism
Worships the freedom to express our uniqueness against constraints and conventions.

The whole American dream concept is summed up here. The whole Nike ad "Just Do It" Individualism asserts they are the primary reality in the universe and this is what is being taught by secular western society today.

In individualism my ends justify my means, I am my own moral conscience, freedom and fulfillment are my right, and performance defines our value.

The fact of the matter is these humanistic ideals are nothing more than satanism wrapped up in fancy terms.

Humanism is something I am against, not for.

This may seem a bit all over the place but I edited in this comment twice and read where you edited in your comment and am responding to that also.

In all fairness I really like Spurgeon, so I'll post one of his quotes.
Because I really don't see anything you have posted worth a reply that hasn't been addressed. Its an old argument.
But I do fear you maybe headed into becoming a popeling as Spurgeon described.

The great 19th century preacher, C. H. Spurgeon, said: “If the Book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of popelings fresh from college. Are these correctors of Scriptures infallible? Is it certain that our Bibles are not right, but that the critics must be so? Now, Farmer Smith, when you have read your Bible, and have enjoyed its precious promises, you will have tomorrow morning, to go down the street to ask the scholarly man at the parsonage whether this portion of the Scripture belongs to the inspired part of the Word or whether it is of dubious authority….We shall gradually be so bedoubted and be criticized that only a few of the most profound will know what is Bible and what is not, and they will dictate to the rest of us. I have no more faith in their mercy than in their accuracy… and we are fully assured that our old English version of the Scriptures is sufficient for plain men for all purposes of life, salvation, and goodness.”

 

[justaname]

Well it is official, this thread is derailed. Instead of addressing the issues presented we have now switched to addressing the addresser. I have a feeling this will not be the last time I am attacked for presenting the TRUTH.

Rex,
Pigeon hole it if you will, but you are clearly uninterested in positioning statements about the topic and more interested in positioning statements against me. You have not posted anything that adds to the subject at hand. Now it is funny you mention Spurgeon. In the context of what he is actually is speaking about is called "higher criticism" This has to do with the JDHP theory which asserts to errancy in the scriptures, something I do not hold to rather I hold what is called a higher view of scripture, inherency in the text.

Now lets see what the great theologian C. H. Spurgeon thinks about John Calvin

"What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor."

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

Now if anyone would like to speak to the OP I am more than happy to oblige. I will later re-summerize the ideas I presented, in attempt to get this thread back on track.

In reading through responses I came along this that Angelina posted.

I'm sorry, I did not know the word of God before I was saved. I was saved by God's divine intervention and grew through a personal relationship with him. Many years later, I went to Church and learned what the bible said about him which was cool because It only confirmed what I already knew.

Now this begs of me to ask you, if you don't mind to share a bit of your testimony. From this statement's presentation it seems to agree with the theology I am presenting.

I will be waiting to hear your response and I thank you in advance.

 

[Graceismine]

Justaname said

I agree unbelievers are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but what do you do with this scripture.
Genesis 6:5

You see there must be a transition point from the current state of the non-believer that enables him to come to belief. That does not necessitate the Holy Spirit indwelling the agent, but it does necessitate an act of God

I agree with that Scripture. But you are assuming the outcome of it. Your own words accuse you, "you see there must be". Superimposing your idea into the Scripture. Take it for what it says, "man's heart is deceitfully wicked beyond all things". So??????

 

[justaname]

Justaname said


I agree with that Scripture. But you are assuming the outcome of it. Your own words accuse you, "you see there must be". Superimposing your idea into the Scripture. Take it for what it says, "man's heart is deceitfully wicked beyond all things". So??????

Genesis 6:5

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

This is the NASB translation.

What changes the heart condition of the non-believer to accept God? Is the man whose intent is continually evil going to do such a thing and is it even possible?

Lets look at Paul's scriptural presentation.


Romans 3:10-18

10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Scripture clearly states there is none who seeks for God. Man's heart is deceitfully wicked beyond all things so... we are in desperate need for God to save us. Not that we can decide to do it for ourselves, because no one seeks Him, so He must.

 

[Rex]

If it is derailed it is by your own dissatisfaction in the outcome you presented.
I mentioned you need to focus your apologetic position, you have now done so Calvinism. Your looking for a greater understanding by attending and exposing yourself to carefully observations in the bible as well as the writing of those who have much to say concerning the fulness of those text. To which I say it is a good thing.

I said on another page

Then I'll simply say Calvinism has only one eye.

In one context I see a great value in Calvinism in forever remembering it's not of myself that the wisdom of God is know, and hopefully shared "not of myself but of God" never let that truth slip from your fingers. As soon as you perceive yourself as posesing something that was not explicitly given to by God you are on the wrong foot. Equally that God can raise up these very stones to testify Matthew 3:9

But as I'm going to post and Spurgeon also attest to, its only a one part of two. Arminianism and Calvinism are both independent and one in the same attributes God declares in His word.

Quote Spurgeaon; These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

I believe we both do well to not overly criticize or lay hold of one more strongly than another. To do so is to neglect the fullness of truth in which we both seek.

Now lets see what the great theologian C. H. Spurgeon thinks about John Calvin

You spoke as though Spurgeaon was to be the final nail in my coffin so to speak. But now I, an uneducated man have attempted to revel to you the error of reading a single opinion or verse and holding it so tightly that your hand can not receive any more. Learn all you can, but leave room to learn some more. Keep the possibility open that we can all learn something from anyone.
And maybe remember a man with a GED at 17 to enlist can in effect bring your intellect into question.

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.
I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that “it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.”
I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.
Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.
That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.
If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.
These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
- Charles Haddon Spurgeon from his sermon “Sovereign Grace and Man’s Responsibility,” originally delivered Sunday morning, August 1, 1858, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens, London.

 

[justaname]

Rex,
You are still continuing your attack on me and guilty of the very thing Angelina suggested we not do, as to which you agreed in her estimation.

Your Quote
Very nice Angelina you just summarized how we should view and weigh all denominational differences.

You now present Spurgeon and work from within the confines of his teaching, who is a self professed Calvinist.
"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

It seems you are attempting to attack my intellect, again your quote:

And maybe remember a man with a GED at 17 to enlist can in effect bring your intellect into question.

while at the same time exalt yourself without even remembering what you said yesterday.

I do not read only view and present one verse in fact I have presented and commented on several, as to which I think you have only presented one yourself.


The only thing I can gather from the way you attack me is you think I am promoting fatalism and or antinomianism, as to which I am not.
Let me quote Spurgeon, and explain what he is saying, but first a few definitions.
Fatalism
the belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

Antinomian
of or relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from theobligation of observing the moral law.

In the term antinomian the emphasis is moral law, not to be confused with the law of moses. In Calvin's day there was a group of upperclass elitists if you will that believed they were not morally responsible for anything because of their belief in Christ.

Spurgeon

"That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.
If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other."

The two truths Spurgeon speaks of is God predestines (plenty of scripture to back this up) and man is responsible for his own actions. (here I don't think anyone disagrees)

Many people struggle with this concept and this is why so many say God can not go against man's free-will, which Scripture proves differently.

Jeremiah 10:23
23 I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.


What Spurgeon is saying is we need to take scripture at what it says because it is the authority not our selves. If we come to the conclusion that scripture is contradictory we need to rather conclude we are not properly understanding what is being presented. If we see with our eyes that man can exert free-will yet scripture teaches that God is in sovereign control or as Spurgeon puts it everything is fore-ordained we need to walk by faith not sight.

The derailment is the effect of people attacking the messenger instead of discussing the message.