God over free-will

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justaname

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I seek to search the concept of human free-will in accordance with the sovereignty of God. I ask the Lord Most High to use His Holy Spirit to guide this endeavor in the name of Jesus Christ.

I will begin by defining the term "free-will".
When thinking of the term "free-will" one will rightly gain a sense of freedom. Freedom from or to do what you might ask. Let us first set aside consequence, this I will address later. Freedom in choice to choose one's course of action. This is a minimal view which can be extended to all beings including animals. (http://www.iep.utm.edu/freewill/)


From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."

This subjects the agents as being rational which assumes the agents to be human. Although I do know there are human agents that are irrational this definition will suffice for argument's sake.

Let me first state I do believe that unsaved agents can do good in this world, although that standard of good is man's standard and not God's. The hidden sin behind every action anyone can do is pride. Charles De Gaulle states it as such “Every man of action has a strong dose of egoism, pride, hardness, and cunning. But all those things will be regarded as high qualities if he can make them the means to achieve great ends.”

Yes these qualities the world may regard as high, but I am certain God does not. Isaiah 2:11 Matthew 23:12 In this the man of God cries out in harmony with the psalmist: Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults, also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins; let them not rule over me; then I will be blameless, and I shall be acquitted of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.

Moving now to scripture we can see the position of humanity before grace.
Genesis 6:5

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Matthew 15:18
18 “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

John 8:33
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Romans 1:21

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 3:10-18

10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Scripture is full and clear describing the depraved state of humanity. Jesus Himself says anyone who sins is a slave to it. Being a slave means you are not your own, you are owned by another agent. We know there are only two types of children, children of God and children of wrath, whose father is the devil.

First case, the unregenerate is unable to please God. Hebrews 11:6

The reasoning is given by Paul also in Romans 8:7-8
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

First argument:

1. An agent possessing free will can freely choose any course of action.
2. Those agents who's mind is set on the flesh can not subject itself to the law of God or please God.
3. Free-will either does not exist or is only possessed by agents who's mind is not set on the flesh.

This will be my first argument I set out and I will start the post here. This subject is very deep and can be positioned in many facets, and it will most likely take multiple postings on my behalf to complete my thoughts on this subject.
 

biggandyy

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An enjoyable read thus far but one word of caution I will add.

"Free-will", as it has been discussed on the forum recently and with regards to our participation in salvation in particular, is only a short hand expression for a larger concept; that of the Free Moral Agent, with Moral agency defined as an individual's ability to make moral judgments based on some commonly held notion of right and wrong.

Unless you are planning to take this into account in future essays I believe an argument either for or against "free-will" will be incomplete.
 

Rex

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I agree with Andys observation and I have been searching for a good teaching> I found this one though I don't agree with the point that a bond servant is the condition of everyone. There has also been talk of losing salvation which some may also find similarities in this term. There is one thing I know that taking the mark of a bond servant is not something that is given nor asked for until the 7th year. In context the HS beginning a work in you is the agreement to serve but the mark is something that comes latter it is agreed upon by both master and slave and witnessed by the judges. I believe there are many today that have not completed the "symbolic 6 year contract" who have not been placed against the door and had their ear opened, taken the mark for the rest of their lives. With that being said, a bond servant is the best analogy I can think of to describe free will in context of being a Christian.

Like I said there are several points I believe the author veers off into personal opinion but it is an outline that serving God in the highest form is your choice, its an act of freewill, and as usual I hope the HS will enlighten you in the details. In revelation it says and to those that overcome.


http://www.newfoundationspubl.org/overcome.htm

Among those who call themselves by the name of Christ are two types of Christians: the overcomers and those who are overcome. Understanding these differences will bring us into conflict with the basic teachings of the organized religious system which states that once we come to Christ and get baptized, we are home free, heaven bound, and fullfledged sons of God. The Pentecostals take it one step further, teaching that after your initial acceptance of Christ and water baptism, you must be baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues as evidence of this baptism; then you are home free, heaven bound, and fullfledged sons. There is no overcoming in this teaching because there is no need to go any further in Christ.
http://www.cke1st.com/sr_2pet11.htm

The Bondservant
Open your Bibles, if you would, to II Peter, chapter 1, verse 1.
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
That verse is my text. One verse. Some of you may be wondering what kind of message I can bring out of just that one verse. Well, actually, that one verse has too much in it for one message, so I'm going to limit myself to just one word in that verse. It's a beautiful word, one that is vital to living and growing in Christ, and one that you absolutely won't hear anything good about from the world. It's the word "servant."

The Greek word used for "servant" here is the word doulos, which literally means, "bond-servant." It's not a hired servant, someone who serves because that's their job. It's an expression of an idea that God gave in the Law of Moses, back in Deuteronomy 15, starting in verse 12. Let's all turn there.

If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing-floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

You can all see clearly that God is not talking about hired servants here. If someone sells himself, like it says in verse 12, that's called being a slave. We're talking about a Hebrew who chooses to sell himself into slavery to another Hebrew, probably to raise money to pay a debt. And a slave doesn't have the same rights as a hired servant, does he? Can he quit if he doesn't like the work? Can he protest to the Labor Board if he doesn't think his working conditions are right? What rights does a slave have? None. He sold them away.
God permitted people to be slaves at that time. But God's Law didn't allow His people to mistreat slaves. The way it was practiced in our Southern states was completely against the principles of the Word of God. I could show you other passages that protect slaves, but the one we need to look at is this passage we just read. God is guaranteeing that slavery, for a Hebrew, is not permanent. It's not for life. The longest time a Hebrew could be kept in slavery was six years, and when he was set free in the seventh year, he was to be sent out with livestock and food. Why? So he wouldn't have to turn around and sell himself again the next day so he could get a bite to eat.
But now look at verse 16:
But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.
A slave could go free at the end of his six years of service, and you'd expect that they would jump at the chance. But there would be the occasional slave who might not want to go. Maybe he had a hard time earning a living, and the room and board he had as a slave was better than anything he'd been able to find for himself. Or maybe he had grown comfortable with his master and his household over the past six years, and he just didn't want to leave. In that case, the Bible had a special destiny for him.

As it says, his master would pierce his earlobe with an awl against the door of the house. That's a very clear statement that you're going nowhere -- that you're permanently fixed to this house and this master. It became traditional to put in a gold earring after the awl was removed. And that slave could never go free again. He could never be sold, either. He became more than just a slave; he became a servant who was permanently attached -- bonded -- to his master, a bondservant. Such bondservants were usually trusted with more of their master's affairs than a normal slave would be. Although still servants, they often were considered part of the family.

The apostle Peter called himself a bondservant of Jesus Christ in II Peter 1:1. So did Paul in Romans 1:1 and Titus 1:1, and so did James in James 1:1, and so did Jude in Jude verse 1, and so did John in Revelation 1:1. All these mighty men of God are starting off their letters with this declaration of bondservanthood, so you might figure it must be important, and you'd be right. And the word is also applied to Moses in Revelation 15:3. What did this word mean to them? It meant they had voluntarily given up their freedom to walk away from their Master. They said, "I love you, Lord, and I don't want to leave You." It meant that God had marked them as His servants for life. Peter and the others couldn't gain freedom from their Master, and they couldn't be sent away. (By the way, that's a good argument for eternal security, if you ever need one.) And if it's good enough for Peter and Paul and James and John and Jude and Moses, then I think it's good enough for us. We ought to be bondservants of the Lord, too.

You may say, "Okay, Mike, that sounds good and biblical to us. But how do we do it?" Good question.
To make it a little clearer what this "bondservant" stuff is all about, let's look at some more places in the Bible where that word doulos, bondservant, is used. Our first stop will be Matthew 20:25-28.
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
In this passage, the first word "servant" in the NIV, or "minister" in the King James, is the Greek word diakonos, which is where we get our word "deacon." But the second word "slave" in the NIV, or "servant" in the King James, is our word doulos, "bondservant." The word diakonos doesn't carry the same sense of permanence that doulos does. Jesus used both words, in part to let us know that, if we want to be great in the kingdom of God, we can't just humble ourselves and be servants now and then. It's a lifelong thing.
Next, we'll skip ahead to Matthew 25:14-30, the parable of the talents. We won't read the whole thing -- you can read it later if you need your memory refreshed -- but wherever you see the word "servant" there, that's a bondservant. You may notice that the master entrusted a great deal of money to those bondservants. He never would have done that with the hired hands. This shows the level of trust that a master has for a bondservant.
Now we check out Luke 17:7-10.
"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8 Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"

Here again, the servants He's talking about are bondservants. This passage is the flip side of the previous one. We might have concluded that bondservants had some kind of special privilege with their master. But don't ever forget that a bondservant is still a servant. He is still expected to perfectly obey his master. He has as much privilege as his master chooses to give him, and not one bit more. Being a bondservant is not a way to get any kind of exalted position. The fact that you've voluntarily chosen a lowly position doesn't make it any less lowly. So don't go getting proud about your bondservanthood. That's like being proud of your humility.
Next stop, Romans 12:11.
Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
Up to now, this bondservant thing has sounded optional. But here's our first command to be bondservants. Serving the Lord (that's the verb form of our word doulos) is just as important as being fervent in spirit. Paul has just made the role of bondservant binding on us. It's not an option, it's not something for mature Christians to strive for when they've mastered everything else Jesus told us to do. It's for everyone who names the name of Christ.
And, speaking of the name of Christ, let's consider Philippians 2:5-7.
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Yes, Jesus Himself became a doulos, a bondservant. If He can lower Himself that far, it should be even easier for us -- we don't have as far down to go.
Okay, now you're all good and confused by all that Greek stuff. Let's speak English for a while. One of the best ways to understand a word is to understand what it's the opposite of. What's the opposite of "servant"? How about "master"? Jesus, our ultimate Master, said He came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many -- we saw that a minute ago in Matthew 20:28. He is Lord of all, but when He was among us, showing us by example how we should live, He was a bondservant.
A pastor, nominally the head of the local church, should be "not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock" (I Peter 5:3). So a pastor is also a servant.
Even a slave-owner should be a servant. Ephesians 6:5-8 tells slaves to obey and respect their masters, and serve them wholeheartedly. Verse 9 says, "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way." The master must meet his slaves' needs and take care of them; he's responsible before God for their well-being. From a Christian point of view, a master is a kind of servant.
So what's the opposite of "servant?" The opposite of "servant," Biblically speaking, is "selfish." A servant says, "What can I do for you?" Selfishness says, "What can you do for me?" There's our opposite.
Selfishness is natural; it's a part of the human condition. It's unnatural to put yourself in a place where you're always meeting other people's needs, and there's no way for you to change your position. So if you're content to be a natural man, then don't worry about being a bondservant. But if you really want to follow Jesus, then you need to give yourself to Him permanently.
He won't stick an awl through your earlobe into the door. He's already had some metal implements stuck through His flesh into the wood behind Him, and that's good enough for us. And He won't put a gold earring in your ear... although He's got some gorgeous gold crowns waiting for those who obey Him. All He wants from you is your commitment to Him, for keeps, regardless. He knows that you may wander off now and then, but He won't call out the dogs and chase you down like a runaway. He just expects you to come back as soon as you realize you're wandering, because you know He's your master and you belong with Him.
As you think about this, you'll realize that it's not a small thing that the Lord is asking of you. When you sign on this dotted line, your options are gone. You are committed. That could be a little scary, if you don't perfectly trust the Master. Let me reassure you right here, the Master is perfectly trustworthy.
But look at that list of bondservants I mentioned before. Peter, Paul, James, Jude, John, and Moses. Between them, they wrote 27 of the 66 books of the Bible -- over one-third of it. Between the five books of Moses and all the New Testament epistles, everything we know about doctrine was written for us by bondservants. God didn't choose just anyone to entrust with writing His Word down.
Those of you who are in charge of some ministry in the church, do you rely on people who you know are selfish? Or do you naturally turn to the ones who you know will do the job, any job, no matter what it is? You know the value of servanthood.
You parents, have you ever had to ask one of your children to do something, when you weren't sure if he or she would actually do it? Isn't it a blessing to tell a child to do something when you know he or she will do it? If you've trained up the child in the way that he should go, then being a servant was part and parcel of the training, whether you used the word "servanthood" or not. If you aren't raising a servant, then you're raising a selfish child, and your heartaches with that child are just beginning.
You young people, as you approach the time when you'll choose a wife or a husband, how do you pick a good one? One of the best ways is to look for a servant. I mean, you don't want to marry someone who's selfish, do you? Meganoito, God forbid, may it never be! When you marry, it's for keeps, there's no going back, so if you marry a bondservant, he or she becomes your bondservant. Does that sound like a good deal? If that sounds like a good deal, then tell me this: does the one you love deserve just as good a deal? Will you be a bondservant to her or him? And now I'm talking to all you married people as well. Will you be a bondservant to your spouse? Either you're a servant, or you're selfish. If two bondservants are married to each other, they've got a superb foundation for a happy marriage. Neither one has to worry about how his own needs will be met, because he knows his spouse will take care of that, so he can focus on meeting his spouse's needs. In this life, that's about as good as it gets.

So how do you find a servant? The gold earring doesn't mean what it used to. But servants aren't hard to spot if you know what to look for.
Look for someone who's busy around the church. And I don't necessarily mean the high-profile stuff, like music. It's possible for someone to be involved in a ministry like that, without a shred of servanthood in him. You can be the most talented Christian singer or musician ever, but if your attitude is "look at me!" then that's not servanthood, that's selfishness. The applause can distract you from the One you're supposed to be singing to. Also, if you've got that kind of talent, singing or playing to the Lord is fun, and the fun can become your motive. That's not to say that a talented person can't be a servant, only that it's easier for someone like that to do things for the wrong reasons. A better indicator of a real servant is the one who's doing the low-profile stuff, like working in the nursery or cleaning up after a church fellowship. Someone who will do the jobs that give no recognition and no real pleasure.
And now, we'll take a simple test. Pop-quiz time. Every one of you, take a look at the people around you. Go ahead, look at them, both sides, in front, in back, farther away, on the other side of the room. Look at everybody.

Now, for each of the people you just looked at, ask yourself this question: "What have I done for that person lately?" How easy is it for you to answer that question? Are you coming up empty for some of them? Has it been a while since you did something for some of them?
There's the test of servanthood. It doesn't have to be a big thing. Praying for someone's needs, that counts. Holding the door open for someone whose hands are full, that counts. Speaking an encouraging word when you know someone's a little down, that counts. Letting others go first in line for the food at a church fellowship, that counts. Now I'm stepping on toes, aren't I?
Is it that hard a thing Jesus asks us to do for each other? He doesn't demand that we wash each other's feet or anything. He didn't lay down laws and commandments about how much time we should spend serving every day. He just commanded that we love one another.
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:12)
And that is the key to bond-servanthood. Without love, serving others becomes an endless, joyless chore. With love, it becomes a natural thing, as much an expression of our relationship with Christ as worship or prayer. If we love Him, we'll love others, and if we love others, we'll be concerned for meeting their needs. Jesus gave everything to meet our greatest need. He asks us to give a little to meet the needs of the people around us.

Of course, as soon as you seriously start thinking about being a servant, the devil will whisper in your ear, "But if you give yourself to serving others, who will look out for you?" The short answer is, God will take care of you. The long answer is that, if we were all bondservants, you could be confident that all the rest of us were looking out for you, so you wouldn't have to worry about yourself. That's how it's supposed to work.

From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (Ephesians 4:16)
That's the plan. A church full of bondservants, where everybody is looking out for everybody else. Nobody has to worry about themselves. That's where we'll find true freedom -- freedom from fear, freedom from worry, freedom from the temptation to be selfish. None of us goes to a church like that, not yet. But it happened once, in the first church of Jerusalem; you can read about it in Acts 2:42-47. And it can happen again in our own church.

There are enough people here to start the change happening. If we all live as bondservants in our own church, God can use that as a catalyst to effect a change in others. We live as servants, others ask us why we're doing this, we tell them about bondservanthood, God uses that to convict their hearts, and they start living as servants as well. According to the Bible, it's supposed to happen. There's no reason it can't happen, unless we drop the ball.

I'm not going to close this message by challenging you all to embrace being a bondservant for life. Although if that's how God is speaking to you, you'd better obey Him. I'm going to close this message by challenging each of you to do something for every person in this room before the day is done. Big or little, quick or time-consuming, it makes no difference. And when you get home, the challenge is to do something for each member of your family before the day is done. And then do it again tomorrow. And again, the day after that. Making a commitment is fine, but servanthood isn't just a commitment. It's a way of life. It's a habit that can be learned.
 

justaname

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Consequence or recourse is the effect of choice. True freedom is simply that, free. The simple fact of consequence proves not all choices are free for if they were free then consequence could not lay claim. I know of only one agent in which this statement can not be applied, that is God. To restate, God is the only one to be able to choose as He pleases without having anyone to answer to or having consequence, thereby He is the only one to have free-will.

I have proven that the unregenerate is unable to possess free-will, yet even the regenerate is only regenerate because of the grace of God. Not that we choose him freely, but that He first chooses us. Romans 3:11 John 15:16 Ephesians 1:4 God's grace is then the necessary agent in order to allow humans to be able to choose God's standard of good. Thereby we do all things from necessity not free-will.

Martian Luther in his response to Erasmus titled "Bondage of the Will" put it as such "It now then follows, that "free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine Majesty only; for He alone "doth (as the Psalm sings) what He will in Heaven and earth." Whereas, if it be ascribed unto men, it is not more properly ascribed, than the divinity of God Himself would be ascribed unto them: which would be the greatest sacrilege."

Second argument.

1. God is free to make His choices without consequence or needing anything thereby God has free-will.
2. Man's choices come with consequences.
3. Man can not choose to do good without God's necessary intervention.
4. Man does not have free-will.
 

JPPT1974

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That is why God is sinless and has that right. While we are sinful and do not. God made us and has that will and right.
 

Rex

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Now that we have moved on to the sovereignty of God your statement.

justaname said:
Thereby we do all things from necessity not free-will.
Sounds rather self preserving, a looking out for yourself. Like a chore you have no satisfaction in doing.
What about those that have tasted the goodness, experience peace beyond understanding, contentment in-spite of condition.

With an attitude or heart like that you maybe missing Gods point, His burden is light, its not a yoke of an evil master.
True joy and peace is found in knowing the LORD and serving him,
 

Axehead

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The most simplest way for me to view this subject is:

1. Only God has absolute free-will. Meaning He can do whatever He wants when He wants and no one can "tie up" His will. What He wills, will happen.

2. We don't have free-will we have freedom of choice. A very important distinction.

For instance, if I have been put into prison, do I have the free-will to walk right out of it? Using my "free-will", can I call 12 legions of angels to free me. Can I walk through the walls? Can I walk "through the midst of the men" without being detained? Yet, Jesus, who did have free-will could have done any one of those things. Often, what we "will", does not happen. So, where is our "free-will"?

I think we should understand the meaning and difference between "freedom of choice" and "free-will", first.
 

biggandyy

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It's 30 minutes that will really nail down Free Will even if you don't pick up Johnathan Edwards or John Calvin.
 

Graceismine

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justaname said:
Consequence or recourse is the effect of choice. True freedom is simply that, free. The simple fact of consequence proves not all choices are free for if they were free then consequence could not lay claim. I know of only one agent in which this statement can not be applied, that is God. To restate, God is the only one to be able to choose as He pleases without having anyone to answer to or having consequence, thereby He is the only one to have free-will.

I have proven that the unregenerate is unable to possess free-will, yet even the regenerate is only regenerate because of the grace of God. Not that we choose him freely, but that He first chooses us. Romans 3:11 John 15:16 Ephesians 1:4 God's grace is then the necessary agent in order to allow humans to be able to choose God's standard of good. Thereby we do all things from necessity not free-will.

Martian Luther in his response to Erasmus titled "Bondage of the Will" put it as such "It now then follows, that "free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine Majesty only; for He alone "doth (as the Psalm sings) what He will in Heaven and earth." Whereas, if it be ascribed unto men, it is not more properly ascribed, than the divinity of God Himself would be ascribed unto them: which would be the greatest sacrilege."

Second argument.

1. God is free to make His choices without consequence or needing anything thereby God has free-will.
2. Man's choices come with consequences.
3. Man can not choose to do good without God's necessary intervention.
4. Man does not have free-will.
Even us non Calvinists recognise that God is sovereign and if He did not limit Himself for reasons and purposes known to Him we would be living in fear that He would strike us dead because He felt like it.

God's choices do have consequences. He chose to speak the universe into existence and it happened. He gave Adam & Eve the ability to choose over gaining the knowledge of good and evil. His grace toward them caused His perfect earth to fall under the curse because He also allowed Satan limited powers. God has given mankind the ability to choose life or death, the consequence of which means that most of mankind will spend eternity in Hell. He doesn't want that but it is a consequence of the choice He gave to the "whosoevers" of John 3:16.

We need to understand what our will is. I believe it to be the soul part of our triune being. It is where we have the ability to make decisions even in spite of consequences. We get the word "willful" when someone stubbornly refuses to do something.


Your number 3 puzzles me. Why can't man choose to do good? He is made in God's image who is good.

Rex said:
Now that we have moved on to the sovereignty of God your statement.


Sounds rather self preserving, a looking out for yourself. Like a chore you have no satisfaction in doing.
What about those that have tasted the goodness, experience peace beyond understanding, contentment in-spite of condition.

With an attitude or heart like that you maybe missing Gods point, His burden is light, its not a yoke of an evil master.
True joy and peace is found in knowing the LORD and serving him,
Good post....right on!
 

7angels

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i just would like you to think on a few points also. so as i answer your questions and i have a question then i would appreciate a reply too.
1. God is free to make His choices without consequence or needing anything thereby God has free-will.
for every cause there is an effect. this is proven scientifically to happen in every case. God is a God that is good and always does what is right so he too must obey all laws he put in place. otherwise God would be a law breaker. God is not subject to man's law because God did not put our laws in place but we did it ourselves. for example having to pay taxes to the government and not just to God. if we decide to obey the authority over us then we are responsible to do what they say. if we disobey we will pay the consequences and if we obey then we will reap the rewards. God chooses to do what is right and thus he reaps the benefits and the same goes for us. if we choose to do what is right then we will reap the benefits and if we choose to do what is wrong then we will reap the consequences of our actions. thus free will for all.
2. Man's choices come with consequences.
so would God have consequences to his actions if he went against his own words.
3. Man can not choose to do good without God's necessary intervention.
if this were true then any person that is unsaved could not do one thing right. history shows us that man is inherently good. the old testament is a good example for none of those back then were saved but were all unsaved because Christ had not die for them yet. isreal choose to follow God and were blessed but when they rebelled the blessings left them. the exception to this was when God was teaching isreal how to live in the blessing after they left egypt and before entering the promise land. but God never made them do what he wanted and thus God would never make us do good or evil. that goes against why God created us in the first place. God created us for fellowship and it is hard to have fellowship with a robot which is what we would be if if we had no free will.
4. Man does not have free-will.
so if we have no free will then why do we argue with each other? why does it matter if we have money or not? why do we have so many different government types? why are we worrying about what God thinks? why are we having to make so many choices in life if we have no free will? why do i need to be responsible? why does it matter how i look or dress? why do i need to live? why are we told in scripture to have goals if we have no free will but are supposedly have our life already mapped out for us? why do we have a book that tells us so much on how to live Godly if we have no free will? without free will our lives would already have to be set in stone and every second of every day is already decided for us. what need is there to live a life like that because that kind of a life sounds just like a computer or robot or whatever you want to call it. a robot and computer make choices all the time but they are not alive and yet they make choices? what defines a free will person and a person that makes choices to be alive?

God bless
 

HammerStone

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I once had a Calvinist provide me with this little riddle, and honestly it has changed my perspective in the matter. (I just don't remember whom; it may have even been Dr. Sproul.)

We love to talk about free will. It's virtually synonymous with individualism and its something that is a key focus on any end of the spectrum - you hear conservatives talk about it and you hear liberals talk about it along with moderates in between. The great issue with the idea that we have our free will is that we are constantly bombarded and influenced by external consequences. What decisions do I actually make that have not been influenced by a situation, person, or some other form of reality?

IE:

My parents raised me with a certain background. I make decisions as a result of that upbringing.

Someone swerves in front of me in traffic - is it really my free will to lay on the horn?

The above examples are probably simplistic, but I can't think of a decision I make without some influence outside of me bearing down upon it.

As such, we arrive at God choosing exactly when to die, influencing the choices of the Pharisees, Jewish people, and Pontius Pilate to name a few. I think we arrive, by necessity, at a very powerful God who does hold absolute free will. It quickly illustrates that we don't have it, even from a non-Calvinist perspective.
 

justaname

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Graceismine said:
Even us non Calvinists recognise that God is sovereign and if He did not limit Himself for reasons and purposes known to Him we would be living in fear that He would strike us dead because He felt like it.

God's choices do have consequences. He chose to speak the universe into existence and it happened. He gave Adam & Eve the ability to choose over gaining the knowledge of good and evil. His grace toward them caused His perfect earth to fall under the curse because He also allowed Satan limited powers. God has given mankind the ability to choose life or death, the consequence of which means that most of mankind will spend eternity in Hell. He doesn't want that but it is a consequence of the choice He gave to the "whosoevers" of John 3:16.

We need to understand what our will is. I believe it to be the soul part of our triune being. It is where we have the ability to make decisions even in spite of consequences. We get the word "willful" when someone stubbornly refuses to do something.


Your number 3 puzzles me. Why can't man choose to do good? He is made in God's image who is good.



Good post....right on!
Let me answer these to start then later I will continue posting ideas. To the consequence issue. My statement is God is the only agent able to make choices without consequence, not to say He does, only to say He is able.

If my #3 is confusing you may want to re-read my first post. But to be brief I will give some scripture on what God says about man.

Genesis 6:5

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The point of necessity is one of terminology. We believe that we are free to choose and that we are subject to nature’s causal laws. This speaks nothing to God's laws, yet we Christians believe we are subject to them. There we have it though, external laws effecting the choices we make, necessity.
 

7angels

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i am curious if by how you explain we as humans have a limited free will because of outside influences and God does not then how is it that God who only does the good and perfect thing and has no evil so he can neither do evil is also not limited by free will when his options are limited to only having one course of action(that which is good) where we as humans have 2 courses of action(that which is good or bad) we could take. so to my way of thinking God is more limited in free will then we are according to your views and definition.

just because God's ways are higher then our ways does not mean God is not subject to the same natural laws as we are. the word teaches Jesus was in the same thing here on earth that we went through and stayed pure. was Jesus a better man then any of us? did Jesus have an even more limited free will then we have since Jesus could only chose the right path where we choose from both paths of right and wrong?

another question for you. did God give us a free will in all areas or in only specific areas? if only in a specific area the what areas were we given free will?

God bless
 

Rex

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So This is going to resolve Calvin, Boyce and Mullins free will calculations.

The question then must be asked to define freewill. In the possibility of zero outside influence "free will" is impossible so we are reduced to choices.

It still remains that mans choice is apparently an unknown in a world that contains two possible out comes.
So in the predetermined possibility's there can be no freewill that is what the Calvinist will say.
 

justaname

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7angels said:
i am curious if by how you explain we as humans have a limited free will because of outside influences and God does not then how is it that God who only does the good and perfect thing and has no evil so he can neither do evil is also not limited by free will when his options are limited to only having one course of action(that which is good) where we as humans have 2 courses of action(that which is good or bad) we could take. so to my way of thinking God is more limited in free will then we are according to your views and definition.

just because God's ways are higher then our ways does not mean God is not subject to the same natural laws as we are. the word teaches Jesus was in the same thing here on earth that we went through and stayed pure. was Jesus a better man then any of us? did Jesus have an even more limited free will then we have since Jesus could only chose the right path where we choose from both paths of right and wrong?

another question for you. did God give us a free will in all areas or in only specific areas? if only in a specific area the what areas were we given free will?

God bless
What you are confusing here is God's freedom of choice. God is the only agent able to choose as He desires. His free-will does not limit Him in His choices, He does. In other words God freely chooses from His good nature to limit Himself to good, not that free-will limits Him. As far as the natural laws are concerned, God established them and He is sovereign over them and is not subject to them. As far as your questions about Jesus, He is God. Jesus is,was, and will always be fully God.

God gives believers liberty in Christ, this is from Augustine. Free-will is an oxymoron in my opinion, and I think the term should be dissolved. It leads some to believe untruths and thereby it is deceiving. You may do well by watching the R.C. Sproul video http://www.ligonier....t-is-free-will/
 

Angelina

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Well I think that we do have a free will, even if it is influenced by external triggers and perhaps limited by God's over-riding intervention. I believe that when we come to a place where we decide to truly follow the Lord and allow him to shape us through the sanctification process, it becomes almost impossible to change our mind or direction because our conscience is involved. I think it's because that initial decision has bound us to the task ahead and it is difficult to shake such a reserve unless something dramatic occurs like a loss of a loved one or we feel that God has seriously let us down somehow. Everything begins with a decision whether it is God influenced or circumstances warranting such a move...it a two way relationship, a covenant of two.

Blessings!!!
 

7angels

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justaname said:
What you are confusing here is God's freedom of choice. God is the only agent able to choose as He desires. His free-will does not limit Him in His choices, He does. In other words God freely chooses from His good nature to limit Himself to good, not that free-will limits Him. As far as the natural laws are concerned, God established them and He is sovereign over them and is not subject to them. As far as your questions about Jesus, He is God. Jesus is,was, and will always be fully God.

God gives believers liberty in Christ, this is from Augustine. Free-will is an oxymoron in my opinion, and I think the term should be dissolved. It leads some to believe untruths and thereby it is deceiving. You may do well by watching the R.C. Sproul video http://www.ligonier....t-is-free-will/
how do you figure God can choose as he desires? why is it ok for God to break laws but when we do it then we get in trouble? hypocrites is what Jesus called the pharisees when they did it. God is to be our role model and if God breaks laws whether the laws of nature or not is wrong. God has to work within the laws he created if he is to do anything within this realm.

Jesus was not God when he came to earth but he came as a man. that puts him in the same category as us. thus by your own reasoning you say Jesus did have free will on earth and yet we have none. that is ridiculous.
 

justaname

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7angels said:
how do you figure God can choose as he desires? why is it ok for God to break laws but when we do it then we get in trouble? hypocrites is what Jesus called the pharisees when they did it. God is to be our role model and if God breaks laws whether the laws of nature or not is wrong. God has to work within the laws he created if he is to do anything within this realm.

Jesus was not God when he came to earth but he came as a man. that puts him in the same category as us. thus by your own reasoning you say Jesus did have free will on earth and yet we have none. that is ridiculous.
I apologize if I am not communicating this correctly. I figure God can choose as He desires because He desires good. God does not break laws because He is not subject to any. I believe we were talking about the laws of nature, whereas you can not break those laws if you tried. God is supernatural, think about it super natural. And yes Jesus was God when He came to earth, fully God and fully man. Can you turn water into wine?