God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

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justbyfaith

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I take it you mean that foreknowledge is God knowing beforehand what we will choose which in effect makes predestination of none effect.
The Lord sees us in eternity, worshiping Him in heaven: He knows by name each person that will endure to the end by faith.

He is outside of time.

He also intervenes within the context of time to apprehend those whom He has seen made it and are currently worshiping Him in eternity.

It is like knowing which horse is going to win in the races; and going and betting on that horse.
 

justbyfaith

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So us, without any help from Him, He apprehends those who He sees had 'made it'?

He also predestinates according to His purpose...Ephesians 1:11...so no. He apprehends them by His power...He does the work.
 
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prism

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He also predestinates according to His purpose...Ephesians 1:11...so no. He apprehends them by His power...He does the work.
What I was objecting to was what seemed like, 'He knows beforehand who will 'make it' and then apprehends them. It sounds like 'good luck, you're on your own, but if you make it I'll predestine you'.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Gee, I remember the days of 'permissive' and 'absolute will'. Preceptive will is a new one on me (I have heard of decretive). I wonder how many other 'wills' we can deduce God has from Scripture?
So when "God is not willing that any should perish" and yet men choose to perish, it sounds as if man's will trumps God's will. Why didn't God exercise His preceptive will to save all mankind?

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Jesus would but the Jews would not.

If these Jews had been predetermined before the world began to be saved, then why were they rejecting Christ and lost?
If these Jews had been predetermined before the world began to be lost, then why was it Christ's will they be saved?

If God had decreed all men be saved, then all men would be saved and there would be universalism in salvation. So the will of God in 1 Timothy 2:4 is not God's decretive will.

God has commanded man not to lie, steal, commit adultery etc, hence it God's will that man not commit these sin but man does anyway. Does that imply man's will trumps God's will? No, it proves man has been given free will by God and God allows man to use that free even to go against what God desires for man. But there is a price to go against God's will that man cannot pay. Man does not have the power to trump God's commands and annul them nor does man have the power to disobey God's commands without punishment.

Here are some links to Calvinist websites that speak about God's preceptive will:
The Will of God by R.C. Sproul
Preceptive Will | CARM.org
What is the difference between God’s sovereign will and God’s revealed will? | GotQuestions.org
 

GISMYS_7

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Yes!!! God does draw all to Him as HE is unwilling that any perish But you are free to reject God's love=your choice!!

Yes!! Men have free will unto salvation===choose to believe=====For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

Mark 9:23
"If You can?" echoed Jesus. "All things are possible to him who believes!"

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:11
It is just as the Scripture says: "Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame."
 

GISMYS_7

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Free will =we all have choice!!
Who this scripture is about==Whoever, everyone,all
For God so loved the ""world""(all), that He gave His only begotten Son, that ''whoever'' believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.20 For ""everyone"" who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

Doing evil is not God's will for man, unbelief is not God's will for man.

God says =
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward ""you"",not wishing that any should perish, but that ""all"" should reach repentance. 2 Pet. 3:8-9
God is outside time. ="I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Yes!! All are called by God and all have free will to believe and accept or reject God's call.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth today to witness against you; I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live. Joshua 24:15 If it does not please you to serve the LORD, decide today whom you will serve, the gods your fathers served beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose country you are dwelling. As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
Isaiah 1:19-20
If you are willing, and obey, you shall eat the good things of the land; if you refuse and resist, the sword shall consume you: for the mouth of LORD has spoken.
Galatians 5:1
It was for liberty that Christ freed us. So stand firm and do not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time!

Galatians 5:13
My brothers, remember that you have been called to live in freedom--but not a freedom that gives free reign to the flesh.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cloak for vice.
 

prism

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God has commanded man not to lie, steal, commit adultery etc, hence it God's will that man not commit these sin but man does anyway. Does that imply man's will trumps God's will? No, it proves man has been given free will by God and God allows man to use that free even to go against what God desires for man. But there is a price to go against God's will that man cannot pay. Man does not have the power to trump God's commands and annul them nor does man have the power to disobey God's commands without punishment.
Do you think that mankind with his sinful nature has equally the free will as Adam had before he sinned?

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (Eph 2:1-5)

John 8:36 (KJV) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 

prism

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Yes!!! God does draw all to Him as HE is unwilling that any perish But you are free to reject God's love=your choice!!

Yes!! Men have free will unto salvation===choose to believe=====For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

Mark 9:23
"If You can?" echoed Jesus. "All things are possible to him who believes!"

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:11
It is just as the Scripture says: "Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame."
I'll ask you the same question...
Do you think that mankind with his sinful nature has equally the free will as Adam had before he sinned?
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Do you think that mankind with his sinful nature has equally the free will as Adam had before he sinned?

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (Eph 2:1-5)

John 8:36 (KJV) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

--man is not born with a sinful, totally depraved nature. Genesis 4:7 Cain had the ability to do well or not do well...his choice. Abel chose to do well Hebrews 11:4 therefore was righteous before God.


--Eph 2:1 "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins," Paul is talking about the Ephesians own sins, not Adam's sin.

--in Eph 2:1-5 the word "nature" can carry the idea of habitual practice and not to how one was innately born. THose in Ephesians "walked according to the course of this world" and " had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind". They had practiced and habitually walked in sin for so long it became a part of their nature, not how they were born.

--the Greek verb "were":
It is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language, therefore, stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility.

Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”

Sinful Custom By Years of Practice
It is probable that the King James Version, and most subsequent translations, reflect a Calvinistic bias in the rendition, “by nature children of wrath.”

The Greek word phusei, rendered “nature” in our common versions, can denote “a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature” (Thayer 1958, 660).

Edward Robinson observed that the term can be understood of a “native mode of thinking, feeling, acting” on the part of those who are “unenlightened by the influence of divine truth” (1855, 771).

Clearly, these people, by habitual practice, had become worthy of divine wrath.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/43-are-infants-by-nature-children-of-wrath
 

prism

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--man is not born with a sinful, totally depraved nature. Genesis 4:7 Cain had the ability to do well or not do well...his choice. Abel chose to do well Hebrews 11:4 therefore was righteous before God.


--Eph 2:1 "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins," Paul is talking about the Ephesians own sins, not Adam's sin.

--in Eph 2:1-5 the word "nature" can carry the idea of habitual practice and not to how one was innately born. THose in Ephesians "walked according to the course of this world" and " had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind". They had practiced and habitually walked in sin for so long it became a part of their nature, not how they were born.

--the Greek verb "were":
It is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language, therefore, stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility.

Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”

Sinful Custom By Years of Practice
It is probable that the King James Version, and most subsequent translations, reflect a Calvinistic bias in the rendition, “by nature children of wrath.”

The Greek word phusei, rendered “nature” in our common versions, can denote “a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature” (Thayer 1958, 660).

Edward Robinson observed that the term can be understood of a “native mode of thinking, feeling, acting” on the part of those who are “unenlightened by the influence of divine truth” (1855, 771).

Clearly, these people, by habitual practice, had become worthy of divine wrath.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/43-are-infants-by-nature-children-of-wrath
The Ephesians were no different than the rest of mankind which Paul, through the Gospel. concluded under sin...

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Rom 3:10-18)
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Extreme Sovereignty= The Worst Doctrine in the Body of Christ!! Exposed.
The belief that God controls everything that happens to us is one of the devil’s biggest inroads into our lives. If this belief is true, then our actions are irrelevant, and our efforts are meaningless. What will be will be.

If we believe that God wills everything, good or bad, to happen to us, it gives us some temporary relief from confusion and condemnation, but in the long-term, it slanders God, hinders our trust in God, and leads to passiveness.
t is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, “The Lord is…not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” This clearly states that it is not the Lord’s will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat” (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God’s will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.

This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn’t will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.

People virtually have to climb over the roadblocks that God puts in their way to continue on their course to hell. The cross of Christ and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit are obstacles that every sinner encounters. No one will ever stand before God and be able to fault Him for withholding the opportunity to be saved. The Lord woos every person to Him, but we have to cooperate. Ultimately, the Lord simply enforces the consequences of people’s own choices.

God has a perfect plan for every person’s life (Jer. 29:11), but He doesn’t make us walk that path. We are free moral agents with the ability to choose. He has told us what the right choices are (Deut. 30:19), but He doesn’t make those choices for us. God gave us the power to control our destinies.
Man has been given the authority over his own life, but he must have the Lord’s direction to succeed. Jeremiah 10:23 says, “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” God created us to be dependent upon Him and our independence is at the root of all our problems. As if it wasn’t bad enough for man to try to run his affairs independently of God and His standards, it has been made even worse by religion teaching us that all our problems are actually blessings from God. That is a faith killer. It makes people totally passive.

James 4:7 says, “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This verse makes it clear that some things are from God, and some from the devil. We must submit to the things that are of God and resist the things that are from the devil. The word “resist” means, “Actively fight against.” Saying “Whatever will be will be” is not actively fighting against the devil.

If a person really believed that God is the one who put sickness on them because He is trying to work something for good in their life, then they should not go to the doctor or take any medicine. That would be resisting God’s plans. They should let the sickness run its course and thereby get the full benefit of God’s correction. Of course, no one advocates that. That is absurd. It is even more absurd to believe that God is the one behind the tragedy.

Acts 10:38 says that Jesus healed all those who were oppressed OF THE DEVIL. It was not God who oppressed them with sickness. It was the devil. It’s the same today. Sickness is from the devil, not from God. We need to resist sickness and, by faith, submit ourselves to healing, which is from God through the atonement of Christ.
od is sovereign in the sense that He is paramount and supreme. There is no one higher in authority or power, but that does not mean He exercises His power by controlling everything in our lives. God has given us the freedom to choose. He has a plan for us. He seeks to reveal that plan to us and urge us in that direction, but we choose. He doesn’t make our choices for us.

In many instances, it is our wrong choices that bring disaster upon us. In other cases, our problems are nothing but an attack from the devil. In some cases, natural forces of an imperfect world cause us pain. Our tragedies are never the judgment or correction of God. Jesus came to give us abundant life. The devil came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10). Don’t ever get that confused. If it’s good, it’s God. If it’s bad, it’s the devil.

This is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity that must be understood properly if you want victory in your life. Believing that God controls everything renders a person passive. Why pray and believe for something better? Whatever God wants will come to pass. That simply is not true.to

The Lord is the answer to all our problems. He is not the problem. A.W.
Every verse has been taken out of context.
The scriptures are not meant to be twisted like silly putty to say what you would have them say.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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What I was objecting to was what seemed like, 'He knows beforehand who will 'make it' and then apprehends them. It sounds like 'good luck, you're on your own, but if you make it I'll predestine you'.
Many fail to understand biblical foreknowledge

God has determined to save a multitude. No more, no less. It is a fixed number. Not Jews only, but all men. Kings, those in authority, rich ,poor,
He is not willing that any elected person perish.
He seeks and saves each and everyone.
Ex:34- jn10- lk19
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Free will =we all have choice!!
Who this scripture is about==Whoever, everyone,all
For God so loved the ""world""(all), that He gave His only begotten Son, that ''whoever'' believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.20 For ""everyone"" who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

Doing evil is not God's will for man, unbelief is not God's will for man.

God says =
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward ""you"",not wishing that any should perish, but that ""all"" should reach repentance. 2 Pet. 3:8-9
God is outside time. ="I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Yes!! All are called by God and all have free will to believe and accept or reject God's call.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth today to witness against you; I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live. Joshua 24:15 If it does not please you to serve the LORD, decide today whom you will serve, the gods your fathers served beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose country you are dwelling. As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
Isaiah 1:19-20
If you are willing, and obey, you shall eat the good things of the land; if you refuse and resist, the sword shall consume you: for the mouth of LORD has spoken.
Galatians 5:1
It was for liberty that Christ freed us. So stand firm and do not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time!

Galatians 5:13
My brothers, remember that you have been called to live in freedom--but not a freedom that gives free reign to the flesh.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cloak for vice.
Not all are called by God.
Men by nature are haters of God.
Men do not seek God psalm14
 
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SovereignGrace

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Many fail to understand biblical foreknowledge

God has determined to save a multitude. No more, no less. It is a fixed number. Not Jews only, but all men. Kings, those in authority, rich ,poor,
He is not willing that any elected person perish.
He seeks and saves each and everyone.
Ex:34- jn10- lk19

Exactly. It started with the first promise in Genesis 3:15. The same language used in 2 Peter 3:9 we can find another place.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14] He is not willing any of His sheep perish. The Christ also said in John 10:11 & John 10:15 that He gave His life for the sheep.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Exactly. It started with the first promise in Genesis 3:15. The same language used in 2 Peter 3:9 we can find another place.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14] He is not willing any of His sheep perish. The Christ also said in John 10:11 & John 10:15 that He gave His life for the sheep.
Yes brother, everyone Peter speaks of will be saved as you understand.
The longsuffering of God results in deliverance and salvation for all sheep.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Believe God's Word!!
God Would Have ALL Men to be Saved!!

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. == A stake in the false teaching Calvinism's heart!
We see in scripture all men are saved.
Kings, those in authority, young men, old men, Jew, Gentile. People from every tribe , tongue and nation.
Never do we see all men ever born getting saved.
God never intended to save all men.
If all men desired to repent and believe the gospel, they would be saved but the fact is men love darkness rather than light because t hug eir deeds are evil....only evil continually.
 
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justbyfaith

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Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6).

In Romans 5:18, by the righteousness of one the free gift comes upon all men unto justification of life.

This is not teaching Universalism.

In order to appropriate the gift, a man must receive it.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6).
Hello jbf,
Yes He did. Do you think it was actual or potential?
Do you think He is an actual Savior or only potential?
Did He do a perfect work on the cross, or does man have to add to it?
 

justbyfaith

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He did a perfect work on the Cross; and gave the result to us as a gift.

As a gift, it must be received.
 
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