God's Omniscience

[Duckybill]

Yes, God knows everything.

John 21:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

 

[TexUs]

God, though He may allow evil, does not create evil, therefore He did not know Lucifer was going to rebel.

Then by what outside influence did evil enter the world?
If he just "allows" evil, then he had to "allow" the influence of it. I'm not talking about allowing Satan. I'm talking about, what did he allow that influenced Satan?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying God does evil... But the THOUGHT had to have been placed there by him. My free will friends can argue about this all day long but unless you provide an outside influence to God's creation OTHER THAN GOD, the thought was placed there.

Also, that when a person commits murder, God did not know that person was going to do that ahead of time.

So, let me just follow their logic maybe...
He created creation in such a way that it'd ultimately leave to Jesus being crucified (which as we see was part of God's will, read Acts 4:27-28), but he didn't see what he set in motion coming to pass? How's that make any sense?
How did he know creation wouldn't flop? After all, if he doesn't know everything that'll happen, how did he know he designed the atom correctly?
Read Genesis 20:6. He knows the king was about to sin so STOPS what was YET TO COME.

Follow this argument. If God does not know something, that means there is something he can learn. A learning God could then change his mind based upon his new knowledge. A learning God is NOT the same God as yesterday, today, and tomorrow, as Hebrews 11 and 1 Samuel 15:29 teaches us.

If God doesn't know what will happen, then that means the prophecies he gave the prophets could be wrong. Jesus might not have been the Messiah! Ask your Bible Study group where their hope comes from, then. They cannot rely upon prophecy as if God doesn't know the future then prophecies are worthless.
And yet Jesus calls in John 17:17 God's word "the truth"... So God's ability to see the future IS truth!

Read Ephesians 1. Talk about predestination. How can a God choose us before the beginning of the world without knowing we would exist?

Did you bring up Psalm 139?

How do they take Revelation????? If God cannot know all things then their hope in Revelation is for naught.

They were saying that God knows everything that is going to happen to believers, but He does not know everything that a non believer is going to do.

Isn't that a contradiction?

 

[dajoshe]

Then by what outside influence did evil enter the world?
If he just "allows" evil, then he had to "allow" the influence of it. I'm not talking about allowing Satan. I'm talking about, what did he allow that influenced Satan?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying God does evil... But the THOUGHT had to have been placed there by him. My free will friends can argue about this all day long but unless you provide an outside influence to God's creation OTHER THAN GOD, the thought was placed there.


So, let me just follow their logic maybe...
He created creation in such a way that it'd ultimately leave to Jesus being crucified (which as we see was part of God's will, read Acts 4:27-28), but he didn't see what he set in motion coming to pass? How's that make any sense?
How did he know creation wouldn't flop? After all, if he doesn't know everything that'll happen, how did he know he designed the atom correctly?
Read Genesis 20:6. He knows the king was about to sin so STOPS what was YET TO COME.

Follow this argument. If God does not know something, that means there is something he can learn. A learning God could then change his mind based upon his new knowledge. A learning God is NOT the same God as yesterday, today, and tomorrow, as Hebrews 11 and 1 Samuel 15:29 teaches us.

If God doesn't know what will happen, then that means the prophecies he gave the prophets could be wrong. Jesus might not have been the Messiah! Ask your Bible Study group where their hope comes from, then. They cannot rely upon prophecy as if God doesn't know the future then prophecies are worthless.
And yet Jesus calls in John 17:17 God's word "the truth"... So God's ability to see the future IS truth!

Read Ephesians 1. Talk about predestination. How can a God choose us before the beginning of the world without knowing we would exist?

Did you bring up Psalm 139?

How do they take Revelation????? If God cannot know all things then their hope in Revelation is for naught.


Isn't that a contradiction?

I absolutely agree with what your saying. Psalm 139 was the first scripture that I mentioned and Ephesians is the book we've just begun to study, although we haven't been able to get past 1:5 yet. When I continually argue that God DOES know everything that is going to happen, and that He always did and always will, one reason an individual gave for not believing that is when you look at a news story such as a person killing numerous people and then themselves. They said that if God knew this evil was going to happen he would not allow it. I argued that there are many instances in the bible where numerous people were killed, either by God or an invading king, etc. and God allowed that to happen to serve a purpose we will never understand while in THIS world. The whole evening was spent going back and forth like this but I failed to make anyone see my side. Granted, this is not a large bible study group by any means (unfortunately) but to have NO ONE actually believe God knows everything that is ever going to happen has me baffled. I am not as fluent in scripture ( not yet) as many of the people on this site and unfortunately I can't find the words fast enough to support my case. I WILL NOT give up though.

 

[TexUs]

They said that if God knew this evil was going to happen he would not allow it.

1 Samuel 2:22-25, what does this tell us? It tells us the Lord can use, and allow sin, to do his bidding.




Keep persisting! Unfortunately I'm reminded of:
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.


A God in a box is what people want to hear about.

 

[dajoshe]

1 Samuel 2:22-25, what does this tell us? It tells us the Lord can use, and allow sin, to do his bidding.


Keep persisting! Unfortunately I'm reminded of:
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

A God in a box is what people want to hear about.

I never would have thought I'd be having a disagreement on this particular issue with my PASTOR.

 

[deprofundis]

God is divine, which means He is no more susceptible to time, being timeless, than He is to any other "law" of physics. In other words, the way I conceive of it is that God doesn't know what's going to happen, He knows what, for him, has already happened. He is in all moments at once, past, present, and future.

 

[aspen]

If evil is a force, God is culpable, whether He created it or allowed it to happen. The good news is that evil is not a force - it is a misuse of creation. Using creation in a self-serving manner is to misuse it, which is sin and results in evil. Since it is not possible to create anything without the possibility of it being misused when freewill is included, God is not culpable - He creation is responsible for choosing to misuse creation.


Peace

 

[Selene]

Our bible study continued tonight where we left off last week, and I presented my same arguments. A lot was said, but again, I was the only one who maintains that God knows everything that is going to happen. A big argument from them was that God, though He may allow evil, does not create evil, therefore He did not know Lucifer was going to rebel. Also, that when a person commits murder, God did not know that person was going to do that ahead of time. They were saying that God knows everything that is going to happen to believers, but He does not know everything that a non believer is going to do. Anyway, I have a lot of scripture searching to do. I am just shocked that they don't believe Almighty God, the Creator of all that is seen and unseen, knows everything that is going to occur to everyone, at any given time. Any further input on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless

Hello dajoshe,

God knows everything including the hearts of all men, which also includes the non-believers (Acts 1:24). He does not like evil, but He allows evil only because He respects and values the freedom of all His creatures. He does not force anyone to follow Him or to do His will. He desires all to know Him and follow Him. He desires all not to do evil, but He will not force anything on anyone. God respects the choices of mankind.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[TexUs]

If evil is a force, God is culpable, whether He created it or allowed it to happen. The good news is that evil is not a force - it is a misuse of creation. Using creation in a self-serving manner is to misuse it, which is sin and results in evil. Since it is not possible to create anything without the possibility of it being misused when freewill is included, God is not culpable - He creation is responsible for choosing to misuse creation.

That's a good thought- and I agree.
However you still miss the point I was making of... "I can be greater than God" this thought, had to come from somewhere. I think this thought, which may have been even more simple than what I stated, had to have been placed there by someone.
So as I said, God knew sin was coming, he provided Christ before he created anything- he knew that thought, which he placed, would grow.
Now perhaps he placed that thought along with "I will submit to God" on an even 50/50 surface, and just knew Satan would choose the former. This presupposes that the Angels have more freedom than man, though... They weren't given a "law" to live by. Because if they were given a law to live by, there's no reason Satan would have thought about becoming greater than God.
Think about this, Adam & Eve would have never disobeyed God- they never even THOUGHT about that, until Satan planted the idea in their heads. So who planted Satan's thought...

IMO this speaks to the absolute power of God in all things, even these things we'll never fully know. If we could fully know and understand God, he wouldn't be God, would he? He'd be an equal soldier, but just the only one holding the gun, so to speak.

 

[tomwebster]

dajoshe,

If you are still around, I have a question for you, Where does the word "Omniscience" come from, is it a Biblical word or a Theological word?

 

[dajoshe]

dajoshe,

If you are still around, I have a question for you, Where does the word "Omniscience" come from, is it a Biblical word or a Theological word?

In looking up the origin of "omniscient" I found on Merriam-Websters website its first known use was in 1604. It states it comes from the Medieval Latin "omniscientia". Good question, I will be looking into it a little further. I'm still having the problem of some in our bible study not believing the God knows everything that is going to happen to each one of us, and I'm still praying as to whether or not I should seek another church and bible study to attend. God bless

 

[TexUs]

It's just like the trinity. The word is found nowhere but the term has Biblical support.

 

[Larry Conlley]

"This is making me wonder if I should continue attending this particular church or not. I don't think I can ever be convinced that God does not know All that will happen. Is it me, am I missing something?" Believe me, God knew about this before you did.

 

[dajoshe]

"This is making me wonder if I should continue attending this particular church or not. I don't think I can ever be convinced that God does not know All that will happen. Is it me, am I missing something?" Believe me, God knew about this before you did.

I believe, without a doubt, that God knew all this was going to happen. I'm wondering if He's telling me to find another church, or using me to try to convince the pastor and the others that they're wrong.

 

[Larry Conlley]

'I believe, without a doubt, that God knew all this was going to happen. I'm wondering if He's telling me to find another church, or using me to try to convince the pastor and the others that they're wrong. ''I believe, without a doubt, that if God wants you to find another church or try to convince the pastor and the others that they're wrong, your wondering will turn into 'I believe, without a doubt".

 

[Nomad]

I believe, without a doubt, that God knew all this was going to happen. I'm wondering if He's telling me to find another church, or using me to try to convince the pastor and the others that they're wrong.

If I were you, I would look for another church. If this pastor fails to see the clear teaching of the Scriptures regarding God's omniscience, then he probably holds other unorthodox views as well. Do you have any idea if this pastor subscribes to Open Theism or Process Theology? The denial of God's omniscience is usually a hallmark belief of each.

 

[TexUs]

It's been awhile since your original post, so... have you talked to the pastor?

 

[dajoshe]

It's been awhile since your original post, so... have you talked to the pastor?

Yes i have, and his view is still the same. He doesn't believe that God, being good, would knowingly allow "certain" evils to happen, such as I've mentioned before, the stoning of Stephen, Lucifer's rebellion, and others. I argued that there is NO WAY God Almighty does not know everything that is going to happen to anyone at any time, whether we understand why or not. I've even asked him to show me in scripture where it says God wasn't aware that something was going to happen, and of course he hasn't , nor will he be able to. Its been mentioned by him and others that disagreements are inevitable when it come to personal interpretation of scripture and I agreed with that, but this particular issue has no room for mis-interpretation. God knows All that is going to happen to everyone and everything at any given time. I've been praying hard for guidance on this, and I hope it is made clear to me soon as to my next step. I do not want to be without a church and Christian fellowship, but I also do not want to listen to false teachings.

 

[tomwebster]

... I argued that there is NO WAY God Almighty does not know everything that is going to happen to anyone at any time, ....

I don't agree with that statement

 

[dajoshe]

I don't agree with that statement

Okay. And your reason being?