Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[GracePeace]

The "works of the Law" would be primarily the ceremonial observances such as circumcision, ceremonial cleansings and washings, etc. Tithing as practiced by the Pharisees would be included.

But any law which would pertain to justice and mercy would not be included. Neither would obedience to the Ten Commandments.

Romans 3:19-20 Romans 7:7 The prohibition against coveting is encompassed in "works of Law".

 

[GracePeace]

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV)
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.

That we are "not under Law" is already granted, the question is as to defining of "works of Law" and as to distinguishing them from "serving one another by faith working through love".

 

[Enoch111]

Romans 3:19-20 Romans 7:7 The prohibition against coveting is encompassed in "works of Law".

You are simply misunderstanding those passages which include two different things. So let's see exactly what they say:

THE DEEDS OF THE LAW CANNOT JUSTIFY
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:...

THE LAW (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) EXPOSES SIN
...for by the law is the knowledge of sin. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Covetousness is an attitude not a deed.

 

[GracePeace]

You are simply misunderstanding those passages which include two different things. So let's see exactly what they say:

THE DEEDS OF THE LAW CANNOT JUSTIFY
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:...

THE LAW (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) EXPOSES SIN
...for by the law is the knowledge of sin. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Covetousness is an attitude not a deed.

Sorry, no, Jesus says hate is murder and coveting is adultery : it is you who misunderstands what a "work" is, not Paul who places "coveting" as an evil deed that violates Law and (curiously, as It was ostensibly to result in his obtention of life) results in his death.

 

[GracePeace]

You are simply misunderstanding those passages which include two different things. So let's see exactly what they say:

THE DEEDS OF THE LAW CANNOT JUSTIFY
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:...

THE LAW (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) EXPOSES SIN
...for by the law is the knowledge of sin. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Covetousness is an attitude not a deed.

"By works of Law... by the Law comes knowledge of sin... I would not have known what it was to covet lest the Law had said 'do not covet'."

 

[kcnalp]

That we are "not under Law" is already granted, the question is as to defining of "works of Law" and as to distinguishing them from "serving one another by faith working through love".

So, define "works of the Law".

 

[GracePeace]

So, define "works of the Law".

I've tried.

 

[kcnalp]

I've tried.

Since we are not under the Law of Moses and have the New Covenant, what's your point?

 

[GracePeace]

Since we are not under the Law of Moses and have the New Covenant, what's your point?

If you don't know how to define "works of Law" you may not be able to avoid them.

 

[kcnalp]

If you don't know how to define "works of Law" you may not be able to avoid them.

So, let's just go with the New Covenant. It's all we need for Christian salvation and "good works".

 

[GracePeace]

Since we are not under the Law of Moses and have the New Covenant, what's your point?

In other words, there's ALOT of overlap between "good works the Law commands" the doing of which is condemned and "good deeds" which we are turned to when we are turned away from "works of Law" Galatians 3:1-5 Galatians 5:5-14.

 

[GracePeace]

So, let's just go with the New Covenant. It's all we need for Christian salvation.

Yeah, it's not that simple.

 

[Ziggy]

I don't believe washing cups on the outside or on the inside or both will save someone.
We can't "work" our way into heaven.

I don't believe people who kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, or covet will get in either.
Or worship false gods, create idols to bow down to, disrespect your parents.. etc.
Or who forsake God and choose not to keep Him in rememberance.
These are those 2 commandments that encompass all 10. Not in that order.

As often as ye have done this to me... done what?
Good works of course.
Fed, housed, clothed, visited, etc..
The law says the same thing.

You get rid of God's law.. what law is there?
Oh yeah.
The law of the jungle we call anarchy.
Good luck with that.
Hugs

 

[kcnalp]

Yeah, it's not that simple.

Sure it is, unless someone tries to force the Law of Moses on Christians. It's quite simple.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't believe washing cups on the outside or on the inside or both will save someone.
We can't "work" our way into heaven.

I don't believe people who kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, or covet will get in either.
Or worship false gods, create idols to bow down to, disrespect your parents.. etc.
Or who forsake God and choose not to keep Him in rememberance.
These are those 2 commandments that encompass all 10. Not in that order.

As often as ye have done this to me... done what?
Good works of course.
Fed, housed, clothed, visited, etc..
The law says the same thing.

You get rid of God's law.. what law is there?
Oh yeah.
The law of the jungle we call anarchy.
Good luck with that.
Hugs

Off-topic.

 

[GracePeace]

Sure it is, unless someone tries to force the Law of Moses on Christians. It's quite simple.

I've already explained why it's not (not necessarily)--I'll wait for your answer to that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'd like to put this up for debate, because I noticed something interesting about the following passage of scripture in Ephesians just this morning. I have always understood the phraseology used by Paul that "we are not saved by works" to refer specifically to not being saved by observing the works of the law, such as observing circumcision and Jewish unclean food laws.

Well if you look at the passage in context this seems to confirm it, because he immediately follows the phrase stating we are "not saved by works [of the law]" by adding that we are "created unto good works."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I invite friendly debate.
Hidden In Him.

I like where this is headed but I would like to add a third category to your list. There are two substantially different types of "good works", both are desirable and worthy of the gospel: 1) acts of charity and generosity, and 2) other actions consistent with the fruits of the spirit.

Acts of charity and generosity:
Giving money to the poor,
Giving money to a stranger on the street,
Giving money to a charitable organization,
Helping a friend move,
Putting someone up for the night,
Helping a neighbor mow the lawn, etc.
Adopting a grandchild

Actions consistent with the fruits of the spirit:
Forgiving a racist remark directed toward you or someone you love,
Forgiving the debt of a friend,
Forgiving an insult,
Letting someone cut in front of you in line,
Allowing the other car to pass on a single lane road,
Making peace with those who hate you,
Working with diligence even when the boss isn't looking,
Fair and equitable business practices,
Treating women with dignity and respect,
Keeping your hands and eyes where they belong,
Holding the door open for someone who needs it,
Encouraging the weak hearted,

I think Paul has the second list in mind when he says we were created for "good works." But maybe both lists?

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is the view held by the preeminent Pauline scholar, NT Wright, and it has a problem : "works of Law" includes universal moral injunctions and prohibitions like "do not covet" Romans 3:19-20 Romans 7:7.

This is not what Paul meant by works of the law. Paul was talking about distinctly Jewish religious rituals: rules, ordinances, and cultural practices unique to Judaism.

 

[kcnalp]

I've already explained why it's not (not necessarily)--I'll wait for your answer to that.

Why would anyone in his right mind want to be under the Law, in any way?

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

 

[michaelvpardo]

The problem is saying these things doesn't help people struggling with reading verses that teach eternal life is a repayment for good deeds Romans 2:6-7 Galatians 6:6-10 Revelation 19:7-8+Matthew 22:11-13

The problem is that people try to interpret verses out of context and in biblical interpretation, as in all communication, context is king. When trying to understand scripture you first have to ask yourself what the passage is about, what exactly is being addressed. Eg. Romans 2:6-7 isn't about the way of salvation, but contrasts saints with sinners in the context of judging people and ministering the gospel. Galatians 6:6-10 isn't about the means of salvation, but is a warning against hypocrisy and an exhortation to good works based upon the spiritual law of sowing and reaping. Revelation 19:7-8 isn't about the means of salvation, but about the results of it. Matthew 22:11-13 says nothing about the means of salvation but only points to the necessity of a "wedding garment" and this shouldn't be confused with the description of the bride in Revelation 19 because the parable is about the invited guests who are rejected and all those who are compelled to enter the wedding feast, not about the bride and groom.
It's all about context. I could string together verses from different passages to make claims to the most outlandish things (and that's how cults are created), but context sets the framework for understanding and scripture is always in agreement with itself. If you find what appears to be contradiction in scripture, the problem isn't with the scripture but with your understanding. That's actually the basis of "the canon of scripture."
We also run into a problem when comparing law and grace because they don't serve the same purpose in God's economy. The law of Moses was never a means of eternal salvation, but "righteousness " to those who observed it and the promise of long life in the land promised to Abraham.
24 And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. 25 Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’ Deuteronomy 6:24-25
The idea of a resurrection is found in the old testament in the book of Job and in some verses from the prophets, but the concept of a salvation to an eternal life is entirely foreign to the law of Moses.