Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[GracePeace]

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19
Did the Seed come and why use the word seed here at all?
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phillipians 2:12-13
Seems a bit like the works of the law were done by men to satisfy Angel's, while the good works of the saints are actually the works of God through men.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5

Yeah it seems like one of the great distinctions is not the content of the work itself (for there is much overlap) but rather from whom the work issues--flesh or God. Romans 2:29 "not by the letter but by the Spirit" "circumcision made without hands".

 

[Hidden In Him]

Good Heavens... four pages already. I've created another monster I cannot contain, LoL.

Thanks to all who are responding. As time permits I will reply to your posts. Busy with more pressing things today to keep up with what is apparently another runaway train.

 

[GracePeace]

Yeah it seems like one of the great distinctions is not the content of the work itself (for there is much overlap) but rather from whom the work issues--flesh or God. Romans 2:29 "not by the letter but by the Spirit" "circumcision made without hands".

Clarification : Just wanted to show that Law pertains to the activity of flesh (as also in Galatians 3:1-5 and Romans 4:1-2) but Grace pertains to the activity of God's Spirit. Not saying the Spirit will perform a physical circumcision. LOL

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oops! He himself said "do no covet" was a work of the Law by which he came to know sin and you have no bases for rejecting that. Not sure what the issue is.

Paul did NOT say that "do not covet" was a work of the Law. That is the issue.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul did NOT say that "do not covet" was a work of the Law. That is the issue.

Actually, he did : he appends "for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin" to "for by works of Law" thus when he says "I would not have known sin unless the Law had said 'do not covet'" he's saying it's a work of the Law.

 

[GracePeace]

I'd like to put this up for debate, because I noticed something interesting about the following passage of scripture in Ephesians just this morning. I have always understood the phraseology used by Paul that "we are not saved by works" to refer specifically to not being saved by observing the works of the law, such as observing circumcision and Jewish unclean food laws.

Well if you look at the passage in context this seems to confirm it, because he immediately follows the phrase stating we are "not saved by works [of the law]" by adding that we are "created unto good works."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I invite friendly debate.
Hidden In Him.

It should be pointed out that it appears Romans 2:21-23 could also (along with "do not covet" Romans 3:19-20+Romans 7:7) be read ("work of the Law" Romans 2:14-15) as concluding some other "10 Commandments" moral laws (prohibitions against theft adultery and idolatry) under "works of the Law" as well.

Clearly, what "works of the Law" means is simply "the life of moral goodness that you should produce following the instructions given in the Law".

 

[marks]

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I'm not really sure what you mean in saying, "so leaving these things out of the equation". Can you elaborate?

Much love!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Ever notice how people that believe in God always want to do something for Him (as though He were incapable of doing anything Himself?)
All we want is the tiniest little piece of His glory to call our own. If we steal a wee bit, He'll never notice, right?
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence 1 Corinthians 1:27-29

 

[marks]

The laws regarding things like circumcision were clearly no longer binding upon Christians, whereas everything falling under the greatest two commandments was.

Not the commandments from the OT, though. What is binding on the Christian is to love others. The new/old law. Keeping the Law of Love, without any regard towards to the OT commandments will itself fulfill the OT commandments, in the way God wants them kept, by having a heart towards God and towards others. Not because of thinking I have to be doing things to be OK with God.

Any kind of "tit for tat" thinking concerning God is, I think, from the fleshy mind, which is what I consider to be the error of the non-osas argument. Salvation is a gift, and having been given, remains just as much a gift as it always was.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I suppose it goes without saying, but Paul's teaching would also apply to other religious rituals such as communion, baptism, marriage, Mass, unction, tithing, singing hymns. Any time we accept the idea that God's grace is mediated through religious rituals of any kind, we have strayed away from the gospel.

I think so too. I like your wording there, mediating God's grace through, and then just fill in the blank! We receive God's gift and that's just the way it is!

Much love!

 

[michaelvpardo]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23
All truly good works issue from God through His Spirit.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

 

[marks]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23
All truly good works issue from God through His Spirit.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

I would also point out, this spiritual fruit is not our fruit, it is the Holy Spirit's fruit. These things resulf from His Presence in me. It's not something I'm doing.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23
All truly good works issue from God through His Spirit.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

It's interesting to note that, granting "works of the Law" are different than "works of the flesh", "flesh" is the word used to describe the means whereby the "works of the Law" are done Romans 4:1 Galatians 3:2-3--and since flesh is "sinful" it can never get those works done Romans 8:3, and you always end up doing "works of the flesh", just as the purport "the strength of sin is the Law" 1 Corinthians 15:56--"works" correspond to that which is performed by "sinful flesh", but "fruit" corresponds to that which is performed by the "Spirit" or "Grace" ("Spirit of Grace").

Works versus fruit may be the discussion we're having.

 

[michaelvpardo]

It's interesting to note that, granting "works of the Law" are different than "works of the flesh", "flesh" is the word used to describe the means whereby the "works of the Law" are done Romans 4:1 Galatians 3:2-3--and since flesh is "sinful" it can never get those works done Romans 8:3, and you always end up doing "works of the flesh", just as the purport "the strength of sin is the Law" 1 Corinthians 15:56--"works" correspond to that which is performed by "sinful flesh", but "fruit" corresponds to that which is performed by the "Spirit" or "Grace" ("Spirit of Grace").

Works versus fruit may be the discussion we're having.

In my thinking, I'd agree with your last comment in principle. I don't think that Jesus and the Apostle Paul used the word flesh in the same way. Jesus appeared to use the word in describing the material aspect of our bodily existence and by extension what we do with it, but Paul seems to use it in reference to the fallen or carnal nature of men at enmity with God. In context there's a huge difference between the groups Jesus addressed and those Paul was most commonly addressing. Jesus was typically teaching unredeemed Jews, while Paul was typically addressing the church.

 

[TheslightestID]

Matthew 19:16-17
The Rich Young Man

16 iAnd behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to jhave keternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. lIf you would enter life, kep the commandments.”

So, pretty clear there as far as what part of the law we need to keep, and I guess that would be a form of works.

Another form of works that Jesus said was an absolute must or endure Hell, was to take care of/help others, something that is covered in the scripture on the Sheep and Goats. Then there is scripture that covers it by simply saying we need to do good, or else...John 5:28.

So we have the comnandments, and Jesus's commandment that actually covers all of them, but for those of us that still may not get it, there are a few lists of rules and comments from Christ throughout the new testament.

New Testament, very important read if for no other reason than that.

 

[mailmandan]

Oops! James 2:14-31 does Galatians 6:6-10 does Matthew 22:11-13 and Revelation 19:7-8 does LOL

False. I suspected that you taught salvation by works, which explains a lot. In regards to James 2:14-26, see post #374 from the link below: Nothing here about salvation by works.

Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

In regards to Galatians 6:6-10, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unregenerated by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Nothing here about salvation by works.

In regards to Matthew 22:11-13, the imagery represents "nominal" Christians who who externally identify with the kingdom, yet spurn the garment of righteousness that Christ offers (Isaiah 61:10) and seek to establish their own righteousness. (Romans 10:3-4; Philippians 3:9) Refusing to admit their own spiritual poverty, they refuse the better garment that King Jesus offers. Nothing here about salvation by works.

In regards to Revelation 19:7-8, the righteous acts of the saints are the practical results or outward manifestation of that righteousness in the lives of believers. Nothing here about salvation by works.

 

[GracePeace]

False. I suspected that you taught salvation by works, which explains a lot. In regards to James 2:14-26, see post #374 from the link below: Nothing here about salvation by works.

Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

In regards to Galatians 6:6-10, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unregenerated by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Nothing here about salvation by works.

In regards to Matthew 22:11-13, the imagery represents "nominal" Christians who who externally identify with the kingdom, yet spurn the garment of righteousness that Christ offers (Isaiah 61:10) and seek to establish their own righteousness. (Romans 10:3-4; Philippians 3:9) Refusing to admit their own spiritual poverty, they refuse the better garment that King Jesus offers. Nothing here about salvation by works.

In regards to Revelation 19:7-8, the righteous acts of the saints are the practical results or outward manifestation of that righteousness in the lives of believers. Nothing here about salvation by works.

Nope, not going to be littering with off-topic comments.
Good Works vs Works of the Law is the topic.

 

[mailmandan]

This is a good solid response.

But now, let me ask you from the perspective of what was retained in Christianity and what has not: The laws regarding things like circumcision were clearly no longer binding upon Christians, whereas everything falling under the greatest two commandments was. Paul used the qualifier good works regarding what we are called to, whereas there is no such qualifier in our text regarding works like circumcision, or ordinances such as the Gentiles not being allowed into the Inner Court of the temple. The Jewish temple was no longer the temple of God, so the entire set of ordinances related to it no longer applied where Christians were concerned, and thus keeping such ordinances in our text would not have been "good" in any sense, and not what were created in Christ Jesus for.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The problem with taking the passage as referring to the same exact thing throughout for me is that it creates an unnatural reading. If he was not making a distinction between good works and works of the Law like circumcision, you have him saying the phrases "[we are] not saved by works" and then "[we were] created for good works" in rapid succession without delineating them as you did in your post. If one phrase is talking about one type of work and the other about a different type of work, you have a natural reading. But if he is talking about the same exact thing in both you have this strange opposition of the phrases against each other with no qualifying remarks explaining how the two principles relate. Circumcision is defined by Paul elsewhere as a work of the law no longer binding upon Christians, so clearly we were created in Christ Jesus for one type of works but not the other. As Paul says in Romans, both Christians Jews and Gentiles were called to be spiritual lights to those in darkness, yet no longer called to be circumcised, so in the following text he tis making a distinction between the two types of works again. Thus, there is clearly a distinction made within Christianity regarding two, one which we must still keep and one we are no longer bound to keep.

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

The law of Moses was binding on the Israelites under the old covenant but not on Christians under the new covenant. The two greatest commandments sum up love (Matthew 22:37-40) and the life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34) and love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10) We are not saved by specific works of the law or good works, that still cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law found in the two great commandments.

 

[mailmandan]

Nope, not going to be littering with off-topic comments.
Good Works vs Works of the Law is the topic.

I'm on topic.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm on topic.

Very nice.