Good Works Vs Works Of The Law

[GracePeace]

Why would anyone in his right mind want to be under the Law, in any way?

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 As are of the works of the law are under the curse;

You're not addressing what I said in response to you.

 

[kcnalp]

You're not addressing what I said in response to you.

We are either under the Law or we aren't. Christians are not.

 

[GracePeace]

The problem is that people try to interpret verses out of context and in biblical interpretation, as in all communication, context is king. When trying to understand scripture you first have to ask yourself what the passage is about, what exactly is being addressed. Eg. Roman's 2:6-7 isn't about the way of salvation, but contrasts saints with sinners in the context of judging people and ministering the gospel. Galatians 6:6-10 isn't about the means of salvation, but is a warning against hypocrisy and an exhortation to good works based upon the spiritual law of sowing and reaping. Revelation 19:7-8 isn't about the means of salvation, but about the results of it. Matthew 22:11-13 says nothing about the means of salvation but only points to the necessity of a "wedding garment" and this shouldn't be confused with the description of the bride in Revelation 19 because the parable is about the invited guests who are rejected and all those who are compelled to enter the wedding feast, not about the bride and groom.
It's all about context. I could string together verses from different passages to make claims to the most outlandish things (and that's how cults are created), but context sets the framework for understanding and scripture is always in agreement with itself. If you find what appears to be contradiction in scripture, the problem isn't with the scripture but with your understanding. That's actually the basis of "the canon of scripture."
We also run into a problem when comparing law and grace because they don't serve the same purpose in God's economy. The law of Moses was never a means of salvation, but "righteousness " to those who observed it and the promise of long life in the land promised to Abraham.
24 And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. 25 Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’ Deuteronomy 6:24-25
The idea of a resurrection is found in the old testament in the book of Job and in some verses from the prophets, but the concept of a salvation to an eternal life is entirely foreign to the law of Moses.

Well, yes, I know there're people who reject the plain meaning of those verses, but, for the rest of us, those verses mean exactly what they say and then the reconciliation between they and other verses which seem to be contradictory is sought and found so that all the verses are treated seriously not just half of them.

 

[GracePeace]

We are either under the Law or we aren't. Christians are not.

You're not responding to what I've said. Not sure what you're responding to.

 

[Ziggy]

Off-topic.

I was replying to the OP. NOT YOU

 

[GracePeace]

I was replying to the OP. NOT YOU

Yes, and you were off-topic. The OP ASSUMES we are "not under Law" (thus your attempt to put people under Law is off-topic) and is asking how to parse "works of Law" from "good works".

 

[Ziggy]

Yes, and you were off-topic. The OP ASSUMES we are "not under Law" (thus your attempt to put people under Law is off-topic) and is asking how to parse "works of Law" from "good works".

I wasn't asking your opinion.

 

[GracePeace]

I wasn't asking your opinion.

Oh sorry I thought I was on a discussion forum and that I was discussing Christianity with Christians. My mistake. Carry on.

 

[Ziggy]

After noticing this, I am all the more convinced that the principle of us "not being saved by works" applies specifically to not being saved by keeping the works of the Jewish law, since they have no effect on things. Good works, however, are precisely what we have been created in Christ Jesus for, so leaving these things out of the equation would be to defeat the very purpose of the grace Paul was talking about here.

I agree

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is a good solid response.

But now, let me ask you from the perspective of what was retained in Christianity and what has not: The laws regarding things like circumcision were clearly no longer binding upon Christians, whereas everything falling under the greatest two commandments was. Paul used the qualifier good works regarding what we are called to, whereas there is no such qualifier in our text regarding works like circumcision, or ordinances such as the Gentiles not being allowed into the Inner Court of the temple. The Jewish temple was no longer the temple of God, so the entire set of ordinances related to it no longer applied where Christians were concerned, and thus keeping such ordinances in our text would not have been "good" in any sense, and not what were created in Christ Jesus for.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The problem with taking the passage as referring to the same exact thing throughout for me is that it creates an unnatural reading. If he was not making a distinction between good works and works of the Law like circumcision, you have him saying the phrases "[we are] not saved by works" and then "[we were] created for good works" in rapid succession without delineating them as you did in your post. If one phrase is talking about one type of work and the other about a different type of work, you have a natural reading. But if he is talking about the same exact thing in both you have this strange opposition of the phrases against each other with no qualifying remarks explaining how the two principles relate. Circumcision is defined by Paul elsewhere as a work of the law no longer binding upon Christians, so clearly we were created in Christ Jesus for one type of works but not the other. As Paul says in Romans, both Christians Jews and Gentiles were called to be spiritual lights to those in darkness, yet no longer called to be circumcised, so in the following text he tis making a distinction between the two types of works again. Thus, there is clearly a distinction made within Christianity regarding two, one which we must still keep and one we are no longer bound to keep.

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Works of the Law, are religious rituals unique to Judaism. When people talk about the difference between the moral law and the ceremonial law it can be a bit confusing, since it was immoral for a Jew to disobey any one of them. A more accurate distinction is to divide the laws up into two categories: intrinsic morality vs extrinsic morality.

For instance, we are always obligated to obey intrinsic laws, because the ought-ness of the law is found within the behavior itself. Murder and adultery are always wrong no matter the cultural context or the historical time period. Such things are necessarily wrong in all social contexts and cultures.

On the other hand, some laws are extrinsic in nature because the rational justification for them lays outside of the behavior itself. The prohibition against mixing two types of cloth, for instance, finds relevance within a Jewish social contract whereby the people obey this ordinance because it identifies them as a unique and distinct people as compared to people from other cultures. It isn't a matter of rightness or wrongness of the act itself, it's just what Jew man or woman does in order to remain a Jew in good standing among his people.

Gentiles are not obligated to practice the extrinsic laws and rules because they find their rational within the Jewish context. But we are obligated to obey the intrinsically moral laws because they find their rational within themselves.

 

[GracePeace]

Works of the Law, are religious rituals unique to Judaism.

This is the view held by the preeminent Pauline scholar, NT Wright, and it has a problem : "works of Law" includes universal moral injunctions and prohibitions like "do not covet" Romans 3:19-20 Romans 7:7.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why would anyone in his right mind want to be under the Law, in any way?

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

Human beings are naturally religious. And those who are devoutly religious will, of course, keep the rules.

 

[kcnalp]

Human beings are naturally religious. And those who are devoutly religious will, of course, keep the rules.

I guess that's true, even if it puts them under the curse of the Law. But they pick and choose the parts of the Law they like thereby putting themselves under the curse. And maybe their loved ones.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

 

[CadyandZoe]

I read your post already. I disagree with the view that the works of the law includes moral imperatives.

 

[GracePeace]

I read your post already. I disagree with the view that the works of the law includes moral imperatives.

I provided Scripture. 'By works of Law no flesh is justified for by the law comes knowledge of sin... I would not have known what it was to covet except the Law said' do not covet'".
I guess words mean nothing to you. That's interesting. lol

 

[CadyandZoe]

I guess that's true, even if it puts them under the curse of the Law. But they pick and choose the parts of the Law they like thereby putting themselves under the curse. And maybe their loved ones.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

I suppose it goes without saying, but Paul's teaching would also apply to other religious rituals such as communion, baptism, marriage, Mass, unction, tithing, singing hymns. Any time we accept the idea that God's grace is mediated through religious rituals of any kind, we have strayed away from the gospel.

 

[Ziggy]

Parents are inherently evil.
If they never told us not to steal candy from the store,
I never would have been arrested for shoplifting.

okay

 

[CadyandZoe]

I provided Scripture. 'By works of Law no flesh is justified for by the law comes knowledge of sin... I would not have known what it was to covet except the Law said' do not covet'".
I guess words mean nothing to you. That's interesting. lol

Finally, you say what you actually mean, with which I disagree. But at least you made yourself understandable. What you have done is conjoin two single verses taken out of context to innovate an idea that would be unfamiliar to Paul. He knows, as many Hebrews know, that the Ten Commandments are not ordinances or works of the law. Are they commandments? Yes. Do they appear in the Law? Yes. Are they ordinances or works of the Law? No. What is not evident in our English translations is the fact that the Torah does not identify Ten Commandments as ordinances.

 

[GracePeace]

Finally, you say what you actually mean, with which I disagree. But at least you made yourself understandable. What you have done is conjoin two single verses taken out of context to innovate an idea that would be unfamiliar to Paul. He knows, as many Hebrews know, that the Ten Commandments are not ordinances or works of the law. Are they commandments? Yes. Do they appear in the Law? Yes. Are they ordinances or works of the Law? No. What is not evident in our English translations is the fact that the Torah does not identify Ten Commandments as ordinances.

Oops! He himself said "do no covet" was a work of the Law by which he came to know sin and you have no bases for rejecting that. Not sure what the issue is.

 

[michaelvpardo]

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19
Did the Seed come and why use the word seed here at all?
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phillipians 2:12-13
Seems a bit like the works of the law were done by men to satisfy Angel's, while the good works of the saints are actually the works of God through men.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5