Good Works Vs Works Of The Law
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GracePeace
Well-Known Member
"Works of the Law" apparently includes "do not covet" Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7.
no I believe the commandments are the eternal moral law
The law of Moses is divided into ceremonial laws and moral laws!
We are sure that when we are in Christ, we don’t have to eat kosher food, get circumcised, keep the Sabbath etc.. These laws can be considered as ceremonial. (Col 3:14)
But Jesus and His apostles firmly opposed anything against moral laws such as murder, adultery, fornication, homosexuality etc. So is there really a division in the law of Moses between the ceremonial law and the moral law?
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
It's not up to me to help you understand why or how only to show that Scripture indicates "works of Law" includes "do not covet".
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Also for @Hidden In Him
Why do you say "Jesus and His Apostles"? Jesus told the Jew to keep Sabbath if he wanted to enter the Kingdom of God--He spoke at a time the Law stood.
Also, what we're talking about is justification--right standing with God--and that is by "righteousness of faith", such that it is said "having been justified by righteousness of faith" Romans 5:1. After this justification, the Jew has a new method of service, not the oldness of the Written Code, but the newness of the Spirit, thus he is not performing the "works of Law" (weak through the sinful flesh Romans 8:3 Galatians 3:2-3), for he is in the Spirit not in the flesh Romans 8:9, but he is dead to the Law Galatians 2:19 Romans 7:1-6, and he has glorious liberty Romans 8:21 2 Corinthians 3:17, which false brothers want to try to spy on Galatians 2:4, and living the Law of Liberty written in his heart and mind Jeremiah 31:31-34 James 1:25 Romans 2:14-15 Romans 2:26-27 is not being "under Law" but "under Grace", so these are not "works of Law" but "not I but grace with me" which isn't "without strength" "through sinful flesh" but has "strength" of the Spirit of Grace 2 Corinthians 12:9 to do them.
A key difference (between being "free" and being "yoked" Galatians 5:1, "under Grace" and "under Law" Romans 6:14), a "symptom" whereby the slavery Galatians 4:21-31 of necessity produced by being "under Law" (the condition in which "works of Law" are performed) may be detected, is if a spirit of fear has been imparted to the ostensible "servant of God" (a master doesn't feel about his slave the way a father feels about his son--in fact, he may lawfully even beat his slave to death as long as the slave survives at least a day and then dies Exodus 21:20-21--so, the slave is motivated to work for his master out of fear, thinking, "I hate this work, I'd rather be elsewhere, and be doing other things, but I'm forced to be here, and I'd better do this, because if I don't I will get a beating," and the only slave who is condemned to this "beating to death" is the one with this insane (disconnected-from-reality), accusatory view of his Master Matthew 25:24-30) Romans 8:15, whereas the symptom whereby "glorious liberty", produced by being "under Grace", may be detected is if a spirit of hope has been imparted the "child of God" Romans 5:2-5 Galatians 5:5.
This would relate to justification because the fear necessarily generated by the slavery is itself a sign the slave is not in right standing (why else be afraid?)--the slave is always seeking, but never finding ("your life will hang in doubt" is "the curse of the Law" Deuteronomy 28:66) justification, right standing, by his deeds whereby he "goes about to establish [the lie] that he himself is good and righteous" Romans 10:3 (Jesus says "only God is good" so this is idolatry) as if this could result in God accepting them, whereas under God's Kindness (Grace), it was His Kindness that established your rightness with, and nearness to, Him 1 Corinthians 1:30, when you had nothing but sin Romans 3 Romans 4, and it is by His Kindness (Grace) you are remaining right with Him through righteousness (ie, He Himself being your righteousness Jeremiah 23:6 Philippians 2:12-13, not a righteousness of your own generated through sinful flesh working the works of the Law Philippians 3:9) Romans 5:21. The life comes first, as a gift, then the life produces the righteousness--a law of righteousness could never result in life.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear--fear involves torment, like the fear slaves have of receiving a beating which is why they do what they do (their motivation and inspiration).
I think "works of Law" can only correspond with being "under Law"--which failure to apprehend grace results in a slavery which results in an attitude, a view, of fear (remembering "service", going from "beginning" to "perfection", is the issue in the Epistle to the Galatians Galatians 3:1-5) Galatians 5:4 Hebrews 12:15--and that even though "works of Law" can deal with the content of the work, because it does not always deal with the content of the work itself (eg, Paul has Timothy circumcised Acts of the Apostles 16:3, yet is not condemned as an "accursed preacher of a false Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9), "works of Law" refers to work someone who is not "under Grace" but "under Law" (neither dead to Law nor alive to God Galatians 2:19 but estranged from Christ and not benefiting from His saving grace) does, the significance of which is who is doing the work (the weak sinful flesh Romans 8:3 Galatians 3:1-5 or the Spirit 2 Corinthians 12:9), which, in turn, is about "inspiration"/"motivation" (determined by the message the person believed--"persuasion" they are under Galatians 5:8), and the resulting spirit and expectation (slavery which leads to crying out in fear of a beating from the master or adoption which leads to crying out to Abba father in hope of His glory).
Being "under Law" is something specific, but I think the problem with it (what it insinuates, promotes and produces) is also something abstract--a view of God that engenders fear.
Why do you say "Jesus and His Apostles"? Jesus told the Jew to keep Sabbath if he wanted to enter the Kingdom of God--He spoke at a time the Law stood.
Also, what we're talking about is justification--right standing with God--and that is by "righteousness of faith", such that it is said "having been justified by righteousness of faith" Romans 5:1. After this justification, the Jew has a new method of service, not the oldness of the Written Code, but the newness of the Spirit, thus he is not performing the "works of Law" (weak through the sinful flesh Romans 8:3 Galatians 3:2-3), for he is in the Spirit not in the flesh Romans 8:9, but he is dead to the Law Galatians 2:19 Romans 7:1-6, and he has glorious liberty Romans 8:21 2 Corinthians 3:17, which false brothers want to try to spy on Galatians 2:4, and living the Law of Liberty written in his heart and mind Jeremiah 31:31-34 James 1:25 Romans 2:14-15 Romans 2:26-27 is not being "under Law" but "under Grace", so these are not "works of Law" but "not I but grace with me" which isn't "without strength" "through sinful flesh" but has "strength" of the Spirit of Grace 2 Corinthians 12:9 to do them.
A key difference (between being "free" and being "yoked" Galatians 5:1, "under Grace" and "under Law" Romans 6:14), a "symptom" whereby the slavery Galatians 4:21-31 of necessity produced by being "under Law" (the condition in which "works of Law" are performed) may be detected, is if a spirit of fear has been imparted to the ostensible "servant of God" (a master doesn't feel about his slave the way a father feels about his son--in fact, he may lawfully even beat his slave to death as long as the slave survives at least a day and then dies Exodus 21:20-21--so, the slave is motivated to work for his master out of fear, thinking, "I hate this work, I'd rather be elsewhere, and be doing other things, but I'm forced to be here, and I'd better do this, because if I don't I will get a beating," and the only slave who is condemned to this "beating to death" is the one with this insane (disconnected-from-reality), accusatory view of his Master Matthew 25:24-30) Romans 8:15, whereas the symptom whereby "glorious liberty", produced by being "under Grace", may be detected is if a spirit of hope has been imparted the "child of God" Romans 5:2-5 Galatians 5:5.
This would relate to justification because the fear necessarily generated by the slavery is itself a sign the slave is not in right standing (why else be afraid?)--the slave is always seeking, but never finding ("your life will hang in doubt" is "the curse of the Law" Deuteronomy 28:66) justification, right standing, by his deeds whereby he "goes about to establish [the lie] that he himself is good and righteous" Romans 10:3 (Jesus says "only God is good" so this is idolatry) as if this could result in God accepting them, whereas under God's Kindness (Grace), it was His Kindness that established your rightness with, and nearness to, Him 1 Corinthians 1:30, when you had nothing but sin Romans 3 Romans 4, and it is by His Kindness (Grace) you are remaining right with Him through righteousness (ie, He Himself being your righteousness Jeremiah 23:6 Philippians 2:12-13, not a righteousness of your own generated through sinful flesh working the works of the Law Philippians 3:9) Romans 5:21. The life comes first, as a gift, then the life produces the righteousness--a law of righteousness could never result in life.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear--fear involves torment, like the fear slaves have of receiving a beating which is why they do what they do (their motivation and inspiration).
I think "works of Law" can only correspond with being "under Law"--which failure to apprehend grace results in a slavery which results in an attitude, a view, of fear (remembering "service", going from "beginning" to "perfection", is the issue in the Epistle to the Galatians Galatians 3:1-5) Galatians 5:4 Hebrews 12:15--and that even though "works of Law" can deal with the content of the work, because it does not always deal with the content of the work itself (eg, Paul has Timothy circumcised Acts of the Apostles 16:3, yet is not condemned as an "accursed preacher of a false Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9), "works of Law" refers to work someone who is not "under Grace" but "under Law" (neither dead to Law nor alive to God Galatians 2:19 but estranged from Christ and not benefiting from His saving grace) does, the significance of which is who is doing the work (the weak sinful flesh Romans 8:3 Galatians 3:1-5 or the Spirit 2 Corinthians 12:9), which, in turn, is about "inspiration"/"motivation" (determined by the message the person believed--"persuasion" they are under Galatians 5:8), and the resulting spirit and expectation (slavery which leads to crying out in fear of a beating from the master or adoption which leads to crying out to Abba father in hope of His glory).
Being "under Law" is something specific, but I think the problem with it (what it insinuates, promotes and produces) is also something abstract--a view of God that engenders fear.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I would say that being patient is a good work, not a work of the law.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
So long as not by law. Any Christian can do anything out of Scripture they want, so long as they don't believe and preach it as law for all.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Nothing Jesus said as a Jew under the law Moses, so far confirming the works of the law of tithing, sabbath, etc...was spoken as Law for the New Covenant.
Such things were done away at the cross, when God changes His law form that of Moses to that of Christ.
IF someone keeps such things today as of law, then they become debtors to do the whole law of Moses. (Gal 5)
"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh." (Rom 8: 12)
We are no longer debtors to do the law of a carnal commandment and obey with the flesh, but we are debtors to the law of the Spirit of Life.
Such things were done away at the cross, when God changes His law form that of Moses to that of Christ.
IF someone keeps such things today as of law, then they become debtors to do the whole law of Moses. (Gal 5)
"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh." (Rom 8: 12)
We are no longer debtors to do the law of a carnal commandment and obey with the flesh, but we are debtors to the law of the Spirit of Life.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
The law of the Spirit is the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25). We are made free from carnal ordinances that demand and dictate specifically with our bodies how we worship God and where and when in service to Him.
The law of sin and death is that law of God that specifically forbids what not to do in our bodies. That is the law where God identifies sin and calls for death when transgressed: The moral judgment law of God.
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Rom 8:13)
The deeds of the body we are to mortify and not do are listed in that law of sin and death.
Confusion only comes when man brings the law of Moses into that of Christ, or they add their own rules to the law of Christ.
The law of the Spirit is the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25). We are made free from carnal ordinances that demand and dictate specifically with our bodies how we worship God and where and when in service to Him.
The law of sin and death is that law of God that specifically forbids what not to do in our bodies. That is the law where God identifies sin and calls for death when transgressed: The moral judgment law of God.
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Rom 8:13)
The deeds of the body we are to mortify and not do are listed in that law of sin and death.
Confusion only comes when man brings the law of Moses into that of Christ, or they add their own rules to the law of Christ.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Exactly. They began in the Spirit without the law of Moses, and then begin to adopt 'parts' of that law in their lives to demonstrate just how 'Jewishly' holy and righteous and perfected they are.
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
It is religious pride that comes before the fall.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Paul had Timothy circumcised. Did he fall from grace?
No, because he was not circumcised as a matter of law in obedience to law, but as a matter of faith in accommodation of ministry.
Doing something voluntarily, whether by personal desire, or by agreed necessity such as ministry, is far different from doing something as a matter of law on pain of transgression.
The law of Christ is all sin of commission, without any sin of omission. There are no good works demanded to do, but only works of the flesh commanded not to do.
"Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters..." (Acts 16:3)
1. Paul did not 'have' Timothy do anything, except to accompany him in the ministry. Timothy was not compelled nor forced to be circumcised on pain of condemnation of transgression if not.
2. Timothy agreed willingly with Paul that being circumcised would put aside an unnecessary hindrance to free ministry of Christ among unbelieving Jews.
There is a reason why most they who would be teachers of the law have no clue what they are talking about (1 Tim 1:7), because most people don't understand the difference between the law and the liberty of the law.
The law of Christ only forbids works of flesh not to do. It does not forbid liberties within it's boundaries to be done freely by faith.
Timothy did not become circumcised in obedience to a law, which would have made him a debtor to the whole law of Moses, but rather was circumcised by voluntary agreement, that the word may have free course. (2 Thess 3:1)
Being circumcised is not a transgression of the law of Christ. Being circumcised according to the law of Moses as a Christian is to fall from grace and liberty of the law of Christ.
(Of course, another big story is why Paul even persisted in preaching to Jews first wherever he went, when the Lord Himself told him he was called to preach to the Gentiles first (Acts 9:15). From the beginning he was to leave the Jews alone as not worth the time and effort, as Jesus said (Matthew 15:14), and go straight to the Gentiles. Then Timothy never had need of the hassle of circumcision in the first place. It was only because Paul was stuck emotionally on his kinsmen after the flesh (Rom 9:3), that he suffered so many things as stonings, lost at sea, even being brought before Caesar. It wasn't until at the very end of Acts, that he finally got it and went on to do as Jesus commanded in the first place: be an apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11))
No, because he was not circumcised as a matter of law in obedience to law, but as a matter of faith in accommodation of ministry.
Doing something voluntarily, whether by personal desire, or by agreed necessity such as ministry, is far different from doing something as a matter of law on pain of transgression.
The law of Christ is all sin of commission, without any sin of omission. There are no good works demanded to do, but only works of the flesh commanded not to do.
"Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters..." (Acts 16:3)
1. Paul did not 'have' Timothy do anything, except to accompany him in the ministry. Timothy was not compelled nor forced to be circumcised on pain of condemnation of transgression if not.
2. Timothy agreed willingly with Paul that being circumcised would put aside an unnecessary hindrance to free ministry of Christ among unbelieving Jews.
There is a reason why most they who would be teachers of the law have no clue what they are talking about (1 Tim 1:7), because most people don't understand the difference between the law and the liberty of the law.
The law of Christ only forbids works of flesh not to do. It does not forbid liberties within it's boundaries to be done freely by faith.
Timothy did not become circumcised in obedience to a law, which would have made him a debtor to the whole law of Moses, but rather was circumcised by voluntary agreement, that the word may have free course. (2 Thess 3:1)
Being circumcised is not a transgression of the law of Christ. Being circumcised according to the law of Moses as a Christian is to fall from grace and liberty of the law of Christ.
(Of course, another big story is why Paul even persisted in preaching to Jews first wherever he went, when the Lord Himself told him he was called to preach to the Gentiles first (Acts 9:15). From the beginning he was to leave the Jews alone as not worth the time and effort, as Jesus said (Matthew 15:14), and go straight to the Gentiles. Then Timothy never had need of the hassle of circumcision in the first place. It was only because Paul was stuck emotionally on his kinsmen after the flesh (Rom 9:3), that he suffered so many things as stonings, lost at sea, even being brought before Caesar. It wasn't until at the very end of Acts, that he finally got it and went on to do as Jesus commanded in the first place: be an apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11))
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Good point.
When Paul speaks about works of the law, he is talking about the religious rituals and practices of his religion. He rightly argues that God is not granting justification to anyone based on religious rituals and practices.
Jesus also teaches this, especially in his short parable comparing the Pharisee with the tax collector. Luke 18:9-14 Here Jesus draws a comparison between a devoutly religious man, a Pharisee, and a tax collector. The Pharisee was proud that he was "not like this tax collector". As Luke says, he trusted in himself. He based his appraisal on his "works of the law" e.g. fasting and tithing. The tax collector, on the other hand, confessed himself to be a sinner and begged for mercy. Jesus says the tax collector went home justified.
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 subsume "do not covet" under "works of Law", so, no, "works of Law" isn't "religious rituals".
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"He rightly argues that God is not granting justification to anyone based on religious rituals and practices."
Even as they were not justifed by the works of the law of Moses, which was weak due to flesh: even them that obeyed remained carnal of mind.
The Pharisees of Jesus' day in the Jews' religion, as well as the 'holinessers' of today in the Christians' religion, were and are some of the most carnally minded people of all. They have so given themselves to outward carnal ordinances and rules, that it is all they think and care about pertaining to justification of God. Grace and love and mercy are but suspect expressions of them that do not obey said 'works' of their law.
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