Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[robert derrick]

There is no such thing as a "grace race." The Grace is all God's, and HE is not racing anyone, anywhere. Neither does God need to persevere, He is there already, He is the provider of grace, waiting for us at the end of the road. It is we who need to persevere as we walk life's rocky road that God in his grace has provided so that we may walk in it.
.

Grace race? What does that mean?

It appears you don't believe in eternal unconditional security pertaining to salvation, but grace is unconditional.

I can completely agree. And so, at this point I would say the argument is wrongly phrased in order to achieve a desired result:

Unconditional grace is true. Unconditional salvation by grace is false.

 

[Cooper]

Grace race? What does that mean?

It appears you don't believe in eternal unconditional security pertaining to salvation, but grace is unconditional.

I can completely agree. And so, at this point I would say the argument is wrongly phrased in order to achieve a desired result:

Unconditional grace is true. Unconditional salvation by grace is false.

"Grace race" was a term used by someone else. If you notice I said there was no such thing. In the whole of my post I was responding to someone else's error. Please do not credit me with the things someone else said. Thank you.
.

 

[robert derrick]

There is no such thing as a "grace race." The Grace is all God's, and HE is not racing anyone, anywhere. Neither does God need to persevere, He is there already, He is the provider of grace, waiting for us at the end of the road. It is we who need to persevere as we walk life's rocky road that God in his grace has provided so that we may walk in it.
.

Grace is unconditional, not salvation by grace:

Grace is the increase of God. God gives the increase by grace (1 Cor 3), even as the sun shines on the earth, and causes all things to grow.

Grace is the unconditional provision of salvation that is conditioned on faith. God provides by grace salvation to all without respect of persons, because of His Son's shed blood on the cross that pays the price for sin, which is death.

There is no condition to grace: Jesus' blood is incorruptible and eternally available to any and all who believe, which was the only condition of grace to be made available to man.

Now, with the resurrection of the Son, the Sun of righteousness shines on the just and the unjust alike, without condition: Grace, which is God's favour, is made available to man and does not depend upon what the world thinks, nor any man may do. The Son of God is forever resurrected and glorified, and His Light will shine upon all by grace, but not in all, because salvation by grace is conditioned on faith:

To partake of His divine nature and be saved by grace, we must believe the Son, that His Light should shine in our hearts, as the Day-star for our souls.

Grace is unconditionally provided to all, as the sun shines upon all, but grace must have faith for God to save, even as the sun must have rain for God to give the increase.

 

[Cooper]

Grace is unconditional, not salvation by grace:

Grace is the increase of God. God gives the increase by grace (1 Cor 3), even as the sun shines on the earth, and causes all things to grow.

Grace is the unconditional provision of salvation that is conditioned on faith. God provides by grace salvation to all without respect of persons, because of His Son's shed blood on the cross that pays the price for sin, which is death.

There is no condition to grace: Jesus' blood is incorruptible and eternally available to any and all who believe, which was the only condition of grace to be made available to man.

Now, with the resurrection of the Son, the Sun of righteousness shines on the just and the unjust alike, without condition: Grace, which is God's favour, is made available to man and does not depend upon what the world thinks, nor any man may do. The Son of God is forever resurrected and glorified, and His Light will shine upon all by grace, but not in all, because salvation by grace is conditioned on faith:

To partake of His divine nature and be saved by grace, we must believe the Son, that His Light should shine in our hearts, as the Day-star for our souls.

Grace is unconditional provided to all, as the sun shines upon all, but grace must have faith to save, even as the sun must have rain to give the increase.

I know grace is unconditional. I agree with what you are saying.
.

 

[Cooper]

We see God's unconditional grace, even as we see His Sun shining, but we only can partake of His divine nature through His faith, that His Son should shine in our hearts: But, we have this treasure in earthen vessels...(2 Cor 4)

We have not arrived. We are not yet glorified in a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44), so that we must continue in the faith in our natural body, that we may receive the crown of life that awaits us in heaven by grace:

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1)

Grace is unconditionally available to save, but God is not able to save by grace without faith: being saved by grace is conditioned on believing, and we are exhorted to continue therein (Acts 13:43, 14:22), and are warned of the consequences if we do not, even as them that had clean escaped out of Egypt by faith in the blood upon their doorposts, perished by unbelief in the wilderness (1 Cor 10).

Therefore, unconditional grace of God depends upon continuing in faith and the good works of faith: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3)

Even as in the world we are exhorted to labor, working with our hands for the increase, which God gives by grace (1 Cor 4:12) (Eph 4:28), so are we to work with faith in the labor of our souls, for God's increase in good fruits by grace.

We enter into the race of salvation by grace through faith, and we continue therein by grace through faith, but grace in itself cannot keep us running in the race unto the end: we must keep ourselves in the race through faith. Even as the sun shining in itself cannot produce good fruits of God on unwatered ground, neither can God give the increase by grace to the soul left untended without faith.

And so, it is not a 'grace race', but is the 'race of salvation' by grace.

Please, will you read my responses to you. Or are you trying to make my posts invisible to those who only read the last post?

It would be helpful to the reader if you deleted them. You are repeating. Yourself.
.

 

[Cooper]

It is the race of salvation by grace, not the grace race, for the race of God: it is His race made by grace for man, to run in his mortal body through faith back to eat of the tree of Life in the paradise of God (Rev 2:7): By grace through the blood of the Lamb, the way of return is now open to any and all, and yet the flaming sword remains, but it no longer turns every way forbidding entrance by man, but now turns by grace of God one way through which we may run by faith, and so God saves by grace through faith.

Here is the key point: Grace is not God. Grace is not the Savior. Grace is not the Sun. Grace is not the One who saves, but rather God saves by grace: grace is the unconditional availability of God to bestow His favor freely upon all, who may be saved through faith, and to give the increase to them that work with faith: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (James 2)

People who claim an unconditional security of salvation by an unconditional grace, without commandment to continue therein, ;lest we fall short of the promise (Heb 4:1), are literally personifying grace as God Himself, or above the commandment of God, so that grace is independent of all things, even the command of God to continue in faith and maintain good works.

They are idolizing grace, as the pagans did, as a goddess of her own power to bestow herself upon men she so chooses: it was called Fortune's Favorite.

A Christian is not one of Fortune's Favorites, where grace of fortune continues to bestow favor upon an individual, without respect to the individual's works and deeds. That is blind fate, where faith is dead, because it is not needed to continue in Grace's favor.

An eternal and unconditional security of salvation, mistakenly assumed from a salvation by unconditional grace, leads directly to the kind of errors of the people at the mount, who without fear gave themselves to idolatry, with all manner of lust and uncleanness of soul, spirit, and body: today they would be idolizing grace above the commandment of God:

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

If we do not continue in the good works of faith, then the fruit withers and dies, and the ground becomes thoroughly dry, and root and seed perish, and nothing remains for the Sun to give increase to, even though the Sun still shines by grace:

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6)

We water our ground by faith. We keep ourselves growing in faith by doing good works of faith, and not falling away by temptation. God produces and gives the increase to the working of our faith by grace, but without our wooks of faith, there is no increase by God, and our souls produce by nature of man and flesh, that which is rejected by God and is cursed and burned in the end.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. (Jude 12)

For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. (James 1)

This literally means, that the same Sun, which by unconditional grace without respect of persons gives the increase to the field that is well-watered and tilled with good works, will also cause all of it to wither and fall away, so that fashion of it produced by grace perishes. So is the man that had been rich in faith fades away in all his ways, if he leaves the way of Christ to return to the corrupt ways of his old man.

The blessing of salvation is to receive the crown of life, which is only bestowed upon them that endure temptation, overcome evil, and continue in good works to the end: by grace we enter into the race, and by grace we continue therein, but grace in itself cannot keep us in the race, even as the sun cannot give increase to the field that has become overrun with thorns and briers that are rejected of God.

Will you stop quoting me please. Those are not my words but someone else who I was responding to.
.

 

[robert derrick]

Please, will you read my responses to you. Or are you trying to make my posts invisible to those who only read the last post?

It would be helpful to the reader if you deleted them.
.

Sorry, I was posting something very long in chunks. Sometimes things come flooding in like a damn breaking, and understanding what you were getting at opened the door. So thanks much. I no longer believe conditional grace, because of your posting. Somehow the 'grace race' thing clicked. Grace is as the sun shining upon all without condition. The Son shining in the heart is conditioned on faith in Him, and so is condition by continuing in the faith, and so in the grace of the sun shining in.

So, sorry again for the flood. Any objections? Additions? After all, it's your lead that got me here.

 

[robert derrick]

We see God's unconditional grace, even as we see His Sun shining, but we only can partake of His divine nature through His faith, that His Son should shine in our hearts: But, we have this treasure in earthen vessels...(2 Cor 4)

We have not arrived. We are not yet glorified in a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44), so that we must continue in the faith in our natural body, that we may receive the crown of life that awaits us in heaven by grace:

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1)

Grace is unconditionally available to save, but God is not able to save by grace without faith: being saved by grace is conditioned on believing, and we are exhorted to continue therein (Acts 13:43, 14:22), and are warned of the consequences if we do not, even as them that had clean escaped out of Egypt by faith in the blood upon their doorposts, perished by unbelief in the wilderness (1 Cor 10).

Therefore, unconditional grace of God depends upon continuing in faith and the good works of faith: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3)

Even as in the world we are exhorted to labor, working with our hands for the increase, which God gives by grace (1 Cor 4:12) (Eph 4:28), so are we to work with faith in the labor of our souls, for God's increase in good fruits by grace.

We enter into the race of salvation by grace through faith, and we continue therein by grace through faith, but grace in itself cannot keep us running in the race unto the end: we must keep ourselves in the race through faith. Even as the sun shining in itself cannot produce good fruits of God on unwatered ground, neither can God give the increase by grace to the soul left untended without faith.

And so, it is not a 'grace race', but is the 'race of salvation' by grace.

 

[robert derrick]

It is the race of salvation by grace, not the grace race, for the race of God: it is His race made by grace for man, to run in his mortal body through faith back to eat of the tree of Life in the paradise of God (Rev 2:7): By grace through the blood of the Lamb, the way of return is now open to any and all, and yet the flaming sword remains, but it no longer turns every way forbidding entrance by man, but now turns by grace of God one way through which we may run by faith, and so God saves by grace through faith.

Here is the key point: Grace is not God. Grace is not the Savior. Grace is not the Sun. Grace is not the One who saves, but rather God saves by grace: grace is the unconditional availability of God to bestow His favor freely upon all, who may be saved through faith, and to give the increase to them that work with faith: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (James 2)

People who claim an unconditional security of salvation by an unconditional grace, without commandment to continue therein, ;lest we fall short of the promise (Heb 4:1), are literally personifying grace as God Himself, or above the commandment of God, so that grace is independent of all things, even the command of God to continue in faith and maintain good works.

They are idolizing grace, as the pagans did, as a goddess of her own power to bestow herself upon men she so chooses: it was called Fortune's Favorite.

A Christian is not one of Fortune's Favorites, where grace of fortune continues to bestow favor upon an individual, without respect to the individual's works and deeds. That is blind fate, where faith is dead, because it is not needed to continue in Grace's favor.

An eternal and unconditional security of salvation, mistakenly assumed from a salvation by unconditional grace, leads directly to the kind of errors of the people at the mount, who without fear gave themselves to idolatry, with all manner of lust and uncleanness of soul, spirit, and body: today they would be idolizing grace above the commandment of God:

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

If we do not continue in the good works of faith, then the fruit withers and dies, and the ground becomes thoroughly dry, and root and seed perish, and nothing remains for the Sun to give increase to, even though the Sun still shines by grace:

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6)

We water our ground by faith. We keep ourselves growing in faith by doing good works of faith, and not falling away by temptation. God produces and gives the increase to the working of our faith by grace, but without our wooks of faith, there is no increase by God, and our souls produce by nature of man and flesh, that which is rejected by God and is cursed and burned in the end.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. (Jude 12)

For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. (James 1)

This literally means, that the same Sun, which by unconditional grace without respect of persons gives the increase to the field that is well-watered and tilled with good works, will also cause all of it to wither and fall away, so that fashion of it produced by grace perishes. So is the man that had been rich in faith fades away in all his ways, if he leaves the way of Christ to return to the corrupt ways of his old man.

The blessing of salvation is to receive the crown of life, which is only bestowed upon them that endure temptation, overcome evil, and continue in good works to the end: by grace we enter into the race, and by grace we continue therein, but grace in itself cannot keep us in the race, even as the sun cannot give increase to the field that has become overrun with thorns and briers that are rejected of God.

 

[TEXBOW]

Will you stop quoting me please. Those are not my words but someone else who I was responding to.
.

I think you guys are saying the same thing. Quoting you in agreement. (I think)

 

[robert derrick]

I think you guys are saying the same thing. Quoting you in agreement. (I think)

I think he just didn't want me making posts by reply to him, so that he wouldn't keep getting flagged. And I agree. I pretty much answered him with the first post.

And no, I don't look at you as totally depraved. But I do look at them as totally proud of their belief.

Even with grace, pride is still pride.

 

[Cooper]

I think you guys are saying the same thing. Quoting you in agreement. (I think)

He wasn't taking any notice.
.

 

[post]

Will you stop quoting me please.

what about me; is it OK if i quote you?

 

[robert derrick]

The lost sheep do not seek out the Shepherd, it is the Shepherd that finds the sheep and leads/carries them home.

Seek and ye shall find. Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Not apply to the lost sheep? And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations...But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him. (Deut 4)

More faulty reasoning born of false doctrine. Right up there with 'Only God keeps us. We do not keep ourselves'.

 

[Cooper]

I think he just didn't want me making posts by reply to him, so that he wouldn't keep getting flagged. And I agree. I pretty much answered him with the first post.

And no, I don't look at you as totally depraved. But I do look at them as totally proud of their belief.

Even with grace, pride is still pride.

You were repeating yourself, I doubt if you saw me, that is why I kept saying to stop.
.

 

[Cooper]

what about me; is it OK if i quote you?

He wasn't even quoting me, it was a post I had responded to.
.

 

[robert derrick]

what about me; is it OK if i quote you?

Only if you do it his way.

And I do agree. By posting in multiple reply over the same point, I was in fact trampling over any response. So not a fair exchange. I have learned.

 

[robert derrick]

Now, where were we? Oh yes, unconditional grace good, unconditional salvation bad.

It's a brave new doctrine.

 

[Cooper]

Now, where were we? Oh yes, unconditional grace good, unconditional salvation bad.

It's a brave new doctrine.

You missed out God's wrath and a whole load of God's attributes. People are using the grace of God to mean they can do whatever they like and still be saved. That is what Satan would have us believe. Don't believe a word of it. We are supposed to live a life that is pleasing to God, bearing Good fruit, otherwise we will be cut off and burnt down.
.

 

[robert derrick]

You missed out God's wrath and a whole load of God's attributes. People are using the grace of God to mean they can do whatever they like and still be saved. That is what Satan would have us believe. Don't believe a word of it. We are supposed to live a life that is pleasing to God, bearing Good fruit, otherwise we will be cut off and burnt down.
.

You originally agreed with unconditional grave but conditional salvation by grace. But, maybe not. In any case, I left a lot of writing about it, that didn't leaving anything out.

Grace is unconditionally open for all like the sun shining upon all, but only by the condition of faith can we be saved by grace, and the Son shines in our heats.

The life lived well pleasing to good is the condition to remain saved by grace, which is the admonition to continue in grace and faith by maintaining good works of faith, otherwise, the soul is left bare without water, and good fruits fall to the ground dead,and instead produces thorns and briers to be cursed by God and burnt in the end.

That same Sun of righteousness that shines for all becomes the sun of judgment that burns all that is of earth and earthy.