Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[Cooper]

You originally agreed with unconditional grave but conditional salvation by grace. But, maybe not. In any case, I left a lot of writing about it, that didn't leaving anything out.

Grace is unconditionally open for all like the sun shining upon all, but only by the condition of faith can we be saved by grace, and the Son shines in our heats.

The life lived well pleasing to good is the condition to remain saved by grace, which is the admonition to continue in grace and faith by maintaining good works of faith, otherwise, the soul is left bare without water, and good fruits fall to the ground dead,and instead produces thorns and briers to be cursed by God and burnt in the end.

That same Sun of righteousness that shines for all becomes the sun of judgment that burns all that is of earth and earthy.

That is a very one-sided message you are giving, living in the sunshine. Those who follow Jesus were never promised an easy and pleasant life. Being a Christian is no bed of roses. Jesus guaranteed trials and troubles would come our way. We only need to look at His life, He was spat on and reviled. Discipleship demands sacrifice, and Jesus never hid the cost. The reward will come later, but in the meantime, if we are going to be disciples of Jesus we need to live according to His teaching for example in the Sermon on the Mount, and I do not see any of that, rather the opposite, just do as you please, and you are always saved. That is not true. How about teaching the full gospel and the full truth instead?
.

 

[post]

Only if you do it his way.

And I do agree. By posting in multiple reply over the same point, I was in fact trampling over any response. So not a fair exchange. I have learned.

i am of the opinion that as long as the thread isn't closed, it's still possible to reply.

 

[post]

I do not see any of that, rather the opposite, just do as you please, and you are always saved.

exactly how do you please?
and has that changed over the course of your life -- if i made a timeline, and put 'you believe' somewhere on it, how did you please before that time, at that time, and after that time?

i.e. do you believe God changes people's hearts?

 

[TEXBOW]

exactly how do you please?
and has that changed over the course of your life -- if i made a timeline, and put 'you believe' somewhere on it, how did you please before that time, at that time, and after that time?

i.e. do you believe God changes people's hearts?

God can do whatever he wants.

 

[robert derrick]

That is a very one-sided message you are giving, living in the sunshine. Those who follow Jesus were never promised an easy and pleasant life. Being a Christian is no bed of roses. Jesus guaranteed trials and troubles would come our way. We only need to look at His life, He was spat on and reviled. Discipleship demands sacrifice, and Jesus never hid the cost. The reward will come later, but in the meantime, if we are going to be disciples of Jesus we need to live according to His teaching for example in the Sermon on the Mount, and I do not see any of that, rather the opposite, just do as you please, and you are always saved. That is not true. How about teaching the full gospel and the full truth instead?
.

That is a very one-sided message you are giving, living in the sunshine

There has go to be a reason why you are plainly reading what is not there and ignoring what is.

Ever thought maybe my grace is sufficient for thee means the Light still shines in my heart, and I am glad and rejoice in it, though my body be buffeted, and my mind be assaulted on every side?

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Is that the flower-child living in the sunshine Christianity you're talking about?

just do as you please, and you are always saved

There is no way you could have been reading from me anything like that, except you have some special Valhalla axe to grind, to demonstrate how given you are to hardness like a good Viking in Christ Jesus.

What are you a glutton for despair, trial, turmoil, and persecution? Not enough tribulation come your way? Maybe a little proud of how willfully steadfast you are, sort of like some iron-willed kind of hero?

Itching for some of that last great tribulation of the red-faced dragon breathing threatenings and slaughterings down your neck? Gonna prove just how really, really worthy you are to be robed in white?

We have come to this point by way of incomprehensible responses from you, that have turned pretty foul, and certainly out of bounds. Don't be a pup snipping at my heels, just because I am offering something that I got from you, but you may never have thought through to it's fullest expression. When I asked if you had anything to add, being the source of inspiration, I didn't mean chastising me for not offering up enough war and bloodshed in Christian living.

Being a Christian is no bed of roses.

I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys...For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Yeah, I know all too well about super-heroes such as yourself. You like like your bed of thorns, so you can tell Jesus all about it. Been there and done that and been delivered from that kind of cruel living like a 2nd coming of the Lord to free me from self-imposed battles and skirmishes and blights on every hand, where there never really were any.

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Doesn't sound like a lot of gore going on in daily living there.

I no longer make living for God in Jesus harder for myself, than God does, especially when the devil is taking a break to prepare for one final onslaught. Likewise I no longer preach a harder than must be salvation of righteous living by grace.

The eternal security carefree excuses for Christian may be cut away by the left edge of the Sword, but your kind is certainly cut away from me by the right edge. You think constant critique, fault-finding, and quest for glory is really strong young men in Christ? Must be really hard for you to just enjoy a day of the Lord and rejoice and be glad in it, and thank God you know what it is to lie down beside still waters in green grass for a space.

You ever considered you may be surrounded by so many daily battles, threatening your very existence in the body of Christ, might be because you are so full of lust, that has yet been fully circumcised from your heart?

Maybe not. Maybe you're just still peeved by me unknowingly rolling over your 'responses'. Sort of sticks in that thin hide of yours.

 

[HisLife]

You missed out God's wrath and a whole load of God's attributes. People are using the grace of God to mean they can do whatever they like and still be saved. That is what Satan would have us believe. Don't believe a word of it. We are supposed to live a life that is pleasing to God, bearing Good fruit, otherwise we will be cut off and burnt down.

Still accusing anyone that believes they are saved by Gods grace, What do you call them "Dogs" and pushing you have to work for salvation, incapable of actually explaining any verses you use in context, What you push isn't Christianity

 

[HisLife]

The reward will come later, but in the meantime, if we are going to be disciples of Jesus we need to live according to His teaching for example in the Sermon on the Mount, and I do not see any of that, rather the opposite, just do as you please, and you are always saved. That is not true. How about teaching the full gospel and the full truth instead?

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Notice the Lord said he is Abrams great reward and Abram responded what will you give me....

Jesus is Our Reward

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue;

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I could go on but what Reward Are you waiting for that will come later, What is it you need that isn't found in Jesus? Also, Jesus teaching his Kingdom in Heaven And applying it to your Flesh you should realize you fall short unless you really think you are as righteous as God, Which brings us to the Gospel Do you even know what it is, Do you realize Grace And Truth Came by Jesus

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I've never seen you do it but Seen you oppose peoples teaching of "the Full Gospel", Can you explain what you think the Gospel is

 

[atpollard]

Jesus died for whosoever may come. Joel 2:32 and John 3:16 whosoever believes.

Yup. All the Father DRAWS will believe. All the Father GIVES to the Son will believe (and do). Those that are “NOT HIS SHEEP” do not believe … they are not His sheep, because the Father did not give them to Him. They do not believe because they cannot … things of the spirit are foolishness to men of the flesh. That is why God needs to remove our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh.

Who is Patrick?

watch “Saint Patrick’s Bad Analogies” by Lutheran Satire … it is a hilarious video with more edification than reading this entire topic twice.

 

[atpollard]

Regarding the NFL, the predestined position is that only those who are good enough, get to play for the NFL. They are the elect.

Reformed theologians of centuries past have all just risen from their graves to smack themselves on the face and beat their head against a wall … THAT is how backwards you just presented the doctrine of Predestination.

 

[Cooper]

exactly how do you please?
and has that changed over the course of your life -- if i made a timeline, and put 'you believe' somewhere on it, how did you please before that time, at that time, and after that time?

i.e. do you believe God changes people's hearts?

From being self centred and elitist, to loving, caring people who put others first.
.

 

[Cooper]

Reformed theologians of centuries past have all just risen from their graves to smack themselves on the face and beat their head against a wall … THAT is how backwards you just presented the doctrine of Predestination.

You do better. I would love to see it.
.

 

[Cooper]

I just read here Whats Wrong With Reformed Theology

It has put me right off reformed theology.

Scroll down to "Reformed Theology and the Bible" and you will see what I mean.
.

 

[Phoneman777]

Do you have a specific verse that speaks of a person that ACTUALLY LOST their promised eternal life, or is the "Parable of the Unmerciful Servant" the nail you are hanging that hat on?
(just looking for clarification.)

"If you CONTINUE in My word, then ye are My disciples indeed" is a statement of Jesus which demonstrates irrefutably the conditional nature of salvation, of which only disciples of Christ benefit.

Jesus also said in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV "And because iniquity shall abound, the love ("agape") of many shall wax cold, but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." Since only Saints can partake of agape, the fact that Jesus contrasts the fate of the "many" with him of verse 13 who his saved, these saints of verse 12 are not saved, because through widespread iniquity, they allow it to kill their agape cold and dead.

Lest we think their fate is the same as him of verse 13 (which would make the verse nonsensical and unnecessary), we need to remember that the rejected saints of Revelation 3 were spiritually lukewarm, which is no where near as wretched a spiritual state as those who are "cold".

 

[atpollard]

"If you CONTINUE in My word, then ye are My disciples indeed" is a statement of Jesus which demonstrates irrefutably the conditional nature of salvation, of which only disciples of Christ benefit.

Or He means …

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICELAWLESSNESS.’ [Matthew 7]

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not havethe Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, see that what you heard from the beginning remains in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. [1 John 2]​

 

[atpollard]

I just read here Whats Wrong With Reformed Theology

It has put me right off reformed theology.

Scroll down to "Reformed Theology and the Bible" and you will see what I mean.
.

“Reformed Theology, also known as Calvinism, is the doctrinal basis of a movement within Protestant Christianity, and traces its origin to the protestant reformer John Calvin (1509- 1564).”​

Right out of the gate, he has his facts wrong.
First, the reformation started almost a CENTURY before John Calvin was born. John Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement (so technically, John Calvin was not a Calvinist). The 5 points of Calvinism were created by the Synod of Dort to address the 5 Remonstrances of the Arminians and Calvin played no major role.

The LUTHERANS are the ones that gave the reformed movement the name “Calvinist”. They did so specifically as an ad hominem attack on the theology that they could not argue against on the basis of scripture alone. They used the term ‘Calvinist’ to accuse the reformers of following the man Calvin rather than Scripture … exactly as the “grace-haters” still use it today.


This is like reading a book by the Nazi’s discussing “what’s wrong with the Jews” and assuming that everything it says must be true. If you are going to condemn the teachings of the Reformation (which are really the teaching of the Bible) on the Sovereignty of God and His Grace-based salvation without even bothering to learn what the reformers believe from their actual words … then there is little point in attempting to discuss the lies of those who raise strawmen because they have an agenda to advance that has nothing to do with scripture or truth. Enjoy the Kool-aid.

 

[atpollard]

The lost sheep do not seek out the Shepherd, it is the Shepherd that finds the sheep and leads/carries them home.

Seek and ye shall find. Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Not apply to the lost sheep? And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations...But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him. (Deut 4)

More faulty reasoning born of false doctrine. Right up there with 'Only God keeps us. We do not keep ourselves'.

I cannot take credit for it … Jesus made a whole big deal about it in John 10, so who was I to tell God that He was wrong. I am just not a mature an UBER CHRISTIAN as some that can correct the Godpels of Jesus with a verse plucked from Deuteronomy. So why don’t YOU tell Him.

 

[atpollard]

You do better. I would love to see it.

Predestination:

“When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God’s working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God’s own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.”
- Martin Luther​

 

[atpollard]

You do better. I would love to see it.

Our salvation is from God, but from ourselves there is nothing but sin and damnation.
(The Reformed Confession: 1536, Art. 9)
​

 

[atpollard]

You do better. I would love to see it.

We believe that from this corruption and general condemnation in which all men are plunged, God, according to his eternal and immutable counsel, calleth those whom he hath chosen by his goodness and mercy alone in our Lord Jesus Christ, without consideration of their works, to display in them the riches of his mercy; leaving the rest in this same corruption and condemnation to show in them his justice. - (French Confession of Faith: 1559, Art. XII)​

 

[atpollard]

You do better. I would love to see it.

We believe that all the posterity of Adam, being thus fallen into perdition and ruin by the sin of our first parents, God then did manifest himself such as he is; that is to say, MERCIFUL AND JUST: MERCIFUL, since he delivers and preserves from this perdition all whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable council, of mere goodness hath elected in Christ Jesus our Lord, without respect to their works: JUST, in leaving others in the fall and perdition wherein they have involved themselves. - (The Belgic Confession of Faith: 1561, Art. XVI)​