Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[TEXBOW]

DANGER! Get back ... phew ... you almost took a step towards "total depravity" and the idea that men need to be saved by God because we are broken.

Don't worry little Arminian, this Calvinist has your back.

We are broken in the sense we cannot save ourselves and we are in the flesh. Broken does not mean we are incapable of making a choice. I cannot ignore the many scriptures that clearly say "whosoever" and "If". Even stupid people make choices each and every day.

Are you one of those Calvinist who also believe that God predestined rapist and child molesters? Psalm 11:5 God hates the wicked. Would he predestine something he hates. Yes we have a choice, even broken mankind.

 

[atpollard]

We are broken in the sense we cannot save ourselves and we are in the flesh. Broken does not mean we are incapable of making a choice. I cannot ignore the many scriptures that clearly say "whosoever" and "If". Even stupid people make choices each and every day.

Are you one of those Calvinist who also believe that God predestined rapist and child molesters? Psalm 11:5 God hates the wicked. Would he predestine something he hates. Yes we have a choice, even broken mankind.

Predestination goes with Salvation in scripture. “Those whom He foreknew, he also predestined and those He predestined He also called.”

God calls nobody to sin … God does not desire it and it is as unnecessary are “forcing” an alcoholic to drink. All God does is removes His hand of restraint: “Because they did not see fit … God gave them over to …” (Romans 1).

I guess that makes me one of those Calvinists that reads scripture and believes that it is true. Like Charles Spurgeon or R.C. Sproul.

 

[atpollard]

We are broken in the sense we cannot save ourselves and we are in the flesh.

THAT is “Total Depravity” which is also called “Total Inability”. The lost sheep do not seek out the Shepherd, it is the Shepherd that finds the sheep and leads/carries them home. Men do not crave God; God OPENS hearts and DRAWS men to the Son.

Broken does not mean we are incapable of making a choice.

I agree. I would go further and argue that people are a “chip off the old block” and choose EVIL as steadfastly as Adam did. We choose to listen to people rather than God. We choose to do what God said not to do. We choose to hide our sins with a “fig leaf” of our own making. We choose to run away and hide from God rather than go to Him and face our sin. We choose to blame others, like “that woman”, for what is our fault. We choose to blame God for creating the circumstances (“that woman WHICH YOU GAVE ME”). People make choices all the time. They just do not choose to live “Godly lives” without transforming help from God.

I cannot ignore the many scriptures that clearly say "whosoever" and "If".

I do not either. Given what we know about HUMAN CHOICES, just who IS “whosoever” and who is “if”? Remember that NONE can come to Christ unless they are DRAWN by the Father (John 6:44) and they did not believe BECAUSE they were not His Sheep (John 10).

Even stupid people make choices each and every day.

YES! Stupid people make “stupid” choices and choose “folly”. Sinful people make sinful choices and choose to reject the truth. Who approaches Jesus that is not a sinner? THAT is the point of needing a SAVIOR rather than saving ourselves through obedience. That is why the LAW failed to save in the OT and why Salvation is of GRACE in the NT.

That is why “Calvinism” is also known as “Reformed Theology” (after the Protestant Reformation’s return to Scripture) and the “Doctrines of Grace” (after the GRACE of God that saves people incapable of saving themselves or maintaining that salvation).

 

[Phoneman777]

So salvation is then based upon what a person does and not upon what God has done! That would totally undermine the Gospel, would it not? That would totally undermine John 3:16. So let's modify that verse to fit your concept of salvation:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him -- AND DOES NOT STOP BELIEVING -- should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So the question still remains. Why would any rational human being believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for his or her salvation, and then stop believing that He is the Savior, and that He has given the gift of eternal life to the one who has believed on Him? That would be plainly stupid would it not?

Hi, Enoch, we can't disregard the rest of Scripture by limiting our understanding to the dictates of one verse. Salvation is not a" one and done" thing - it's a relationship, which Jesus Himself compares to a branch connected to the vine.

No one in his right mind will argue that any branch that's disconnected from the vine can survive...but somehow, when it comes to the John 15, the clear implication of Jesus is totally lost on the church. Somehow, we branches can be disconnected from the Vine, yet we continue to survive and eventually reach a more noble state.

I think the reason for this is that the church has mistaken the many "assurance" verses that make certain for us God's unfailing faithfulness to do what He has promised...as trumping the many verses that warn of the Lake of Fire for those who fail to "endure to the end".

 

[Phoneman777]

Ummm … JESUS started that ‘ugly rumor’ that those who believe have “eternal life”. We just thought that Jesus really meant we were saved forever (unlike our ‘work hard or God will drop you like a hot potato’ brothern).

Jesus also told us there will be those who believe and receive the promise of eternal life, but forfeit it. The Unmerciful Servant was fully forgiven and stepped out into the street believing he was, else he would have continued groveling at the foot of his master.

But, in the end, his refusal to allow his character to be transformed by the grace of his master resulted in his original impossible debt being reinstated so that "the latter end of him was worse than the beginning", as James puts it. The hypergrace crowd admits the "master" is God, the "impossible debt" is our sin debt, the "Unmerciful Servant" is the Christian, and the "fellowservant" is a fellow Christian...but somehow gets all confused about the implication of the story when the Unmerciful Servant winds up thrown in prison, as if his forgiveness was still intact, though Jesus said the full debt he owed was reinstated and he was imprisoned, all of which is the antitheses of "forgiveness" and "deliverance from punishment" and "cancelled debt". It is not confusing to those who know salvation is conditional on our choice to make a permanent surrender of our will to the will of our Lord.

Likewise, Christians who choose to resist the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives will forfeit eternal life and their fate will be the same as those who never make such a surrender.

 

[Cooper]

Predestination goes with Salvation in scripture. “Those whom He foreknew, he also predestined and those He predestined He also called.”

God calls nobody to sin … God does not desire it and it is as unnecessary are “forcing” an alcoholic to drink. All God does is removes His hand of restraint: “Because they did not see fit … God gave them over to …” (Romans 1).

I guess that makes me one of those Calvinists that reads scripture and believes that it is true. Like Charles Spurgeon or R.C. Sproul.

God is all knowing. He knew Adam and Eve, and He knows everyone, even before their birth. We are all called and predestined, so were Adam and Eve. They knew Him, and He knew them, and even though they were in the presence of God, predestined to be with Him, which they were, he cast them aside.

There is no place in heaven for the disobedient, and we can only disobey God if we know Him first, as did Adam and Eve. To know God is not to say we love and follow Him, despite His love for us.

The Living Bible puts it very well

For from the very beginning God decided that those who came to him—and all along he knew who would—should become like his Son, (Romans 8:29 TLB)

Remember God is calling all people, but it is only those who come, and follow Him all the days of their life who are saved eternally. Adam and Eve knew God, but they did not follow Him, and he cast them out. There is no place for the disobedient in the presence of the Holy God in whom there is no sin. It cannot be, unless they repent of their sin, even if as late as in their dying moments. So there is always hope.
.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus also told us there will be those who believe and receive the promise of eternal life, but forfeit it. The Unmerciful Servant was fully forgiven and stepped out into the street believing he was, else he would have continued groveling at the foot of his master.

Do you have a specific verse that speaks of a person that ACTUALLY LOST their promised eternal life, or is the "Parable of the Unmerciful Servant" the nail you are hanging that hat on?
(just looking for clarification.)

 

[atpollard]

God is all knowing. He knew Adam and Eve, and He knows everyone, even before their birth. We are all called and predestined, so were Adam and Eve. They knew Him, and He knew them, and even though they were in the presence of God, predestined to be with Him, which they were, he cast them aside.

There is no place in heaven for the disobedient, and we can only disobey God if we know Him first, as did Adam and Eve. To know God is not to say we love and follow Him, despite His love for us.

The Living Bible puts it very well

For from the very beginning God decided that those who came to him—and all along he knew who would—should become like his Son, (Romans 8:29 TLB)

Remember God is calling all people, but it is only those who come, and follow Him all the days of their life who are saved eternally. Adam and Eve knew God, but they did not follow Him, and he cast them out. There is no place for the disobedient in the presence of the Holy God in whom there is no sin. It cannot be, unless they repent of their sin, even if as late as in their dying moments. So there is always hope.
.

If something is "destined" but does not come to pass, then it was not "destined". That just sort of goes with the definition of "destiny". Pre-Destined just means ... to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand [from prae- ("before") + destinare ("to determine")]

Acts 4:27-28 [NASB]

27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur.​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]

28 And we know that [fn]God [fn]causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

1 Corinthians 2:6-9 [NASB]

6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written:
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND WHICH HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HUMAN HEART,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

Ephesians 1:3-14 [NASB]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

[This is EVERY place where the Greek word - G4309 (προορίζω) - appears in Scripture. so you can compare how God uses it in different places. In Greek it literally means "before" + "mark or bound".]

 

[Cooper]

If something is "destined" but does not come to pass, then it was not "destined". That just sort of goes with the definition of "destiny". Pre-Destined just means ... to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand [from prae- ("before") + destinare ("to determine")]

Acts 4:27-28 [NASB]

27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur.​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]

28 And we know that [fn]God [fn]causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

1 Corinthians 2:6-9 [NASB]

6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written:
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND WHICH HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HUMAN HEART,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

Ephesians 1:3-14 [NASB]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

• predestined = God predetermined = determined before

[This is EVERY place where the Greek word - G4309 (προορίζω) - appears in Scripture. so you can compare how God uses it in different places. In Greek it literally means "before" + "mark or bound".]

Thank you for that. We are all predestined to be saved. So when you say such and such a person was never saved, a favourite excuse of the osas people, you are making God a liar. They must have been saved at some point because God always keeps his promise.
.

 

[TEXBOW]

The Apostle Paul on many occasions warns the new Christians, exhorting them to continue in the faith. Acts 14:22 is but one example. He discusses the concern of new Jewish Christians falling back into Judaism. Continued faith and obedience is such an overwhelming and repeated message that it cannot be dismissed. Someone needs to explain why over and over again the warning of false prophets and deception is preached to the new followers if eternal security is assured on the day of salvation and spiritual baptism.

 

[atpollard]

Thank you for that. We are all predestined to be saved. So when you say such and such a person was never saved, a favourite excuse of the osas people, you are making God a liar. They must have been saved at some point because God always keeps his promise.
.

In what sense are we "all predestined to be saved"?

That is like claiming that every living person is born destined to play in the NFL. What about all of the people that DON'T play in the NFL?
If you really believe that everyone is destined to be saved ... "THAT'S UNIVERSALISM, PATRICK!"

 

[TEXBOW]

In what sense are we "all predestined to be saved"?

That is like claiming that every living person is born destined to play in the NFL. What about all of the people that DON'T play in the NFL?
If you really believe that everyone is destined to be saved ... "THAT'S UNIVERSALISM, PATRICK!"

I suspect that he is referring to the opportunity the cross provides. It was predestined that Jesus would be the sacrificial lamb providing the pathway to salvation.

 

[Addy]

Well this thread was an interesting concoction of thoughts...

 

[atpollard]

Someone needs to explain why over and over again the warning of false prophets and deception is preached to the new followers if eternal security is assured on the day of salvation and spiritual baptism.

No PERSON can explain WHY (the personal inner motive) that GOD said or did something.
You are asking someone to stick his hand up God's back and make God a puppet that we can speak what comes out of God's mouth (rather than the other way around). God tells people what to say and men can merely speculate on the WHY of God ... unless God tells us WHY Himself.

Obviously, God warns because the warnings serve some purpose desirable to God. We can only speculate (and disagree on our speculations). You think God's warning PROVES that God (cannot or will not) prevent the loss of those that He has saved. I think the warnings leave the unsaved tares without excuse and are the MEANS by which God is "giving the saved the desire and the power to do what pleases him" [Philippians 2:13]

 

[TEXBOW]

No PERSON can explain WHY (the personal inner motive) that GOD said or did something.
You are asking someone to stick his hand up God's back and make God a puppet that we can speak what comes out of God's mouth (rather than the other way around). God tells people what to say and men can merely speculate on the WHY of God ... unless God tells us WHY Himself.

Obviously, God warns because the warnings serve some purpose desirable to God. We can only speculate (and disagree on our speculations). You think God's warning PROVES that God (cannot or will not) prevent the loss of those that He has saved. I think the warnings leave the unsaved tares without excuse and are the MEANS by which God is "giving the saved the desire and the power to do what pleases him" [Philippians 2:13]

No sir. I'm not asking someone to make God a puppet by any definition. That logic is kinda silly since any hermeneutics could be so defined. Textualism is honorable believe it or not. No need to jump thru hyper scriptural gymnastics. I do think it's clear that some things are left unexplained and what we might define as contradictory is a testament to our limited logic and divine understanding. Presupposition can cause problems with exegesis. These conflicting views have been debated for centuries by very intelligent men on both sides of the issue who strive to serve God without resolution. These conflicts to our logic have ignited a deep dive into the scriptures for many (a good thing). I choose to head the repeated warnings in the scriptures to not be deceived or fall to false prophets, to stay the course, to maintain the faith and it sounds like you might too even though you may think you do not need to do so to remain righteous before the Lord. Hope to see you at the finish line.

 

[Cooper]

In what sense are we "all predestined to be saved"?

That is like claiming that every living person is born destined to play in the NFL. What about all of the people that DON'T play in the NFL?
If you really believe that everyone is destined to be saved ... "THAT'S UNIVERSALISM, PATRICK!"

Jesus died for whosoever may come. Joel 2:32 and John 3:16 whosoever believes.

Who is Patrick?
.

 

[Enoch111]

We are all predestined to be saved.

That is incorrect. Neither are some predestined to be saved. Only those who obey the Gospel as saved (Mark 16:15,16).

 

[Cooper]

That is incorrect. Neither are some predestined to be saved. Only those who obey the Gospel as saved (Mark 16:15,16).

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15-16 KJV)

That is correct. I meant believers. Obviously not the unbeliever.
.

 

[Cooper]

In what sense are we "all predestined to be saved"?

That is like claiming that every living person is born destined to play in the NFL. What about all of the people that DON'T play in the NFL?
If you really believe that everyone is destined to be saved ... "THAT'S UNIVERSALISM, PATRICK!"

Regarding the NFL, the predestined position is that only those who are good enough, get to play for the NFL. They are the elect.

Likewise, it is predestined that only those who believe, are saved. They are the elect.

God's promises made from the foundation of the earth are future events, appropiate to the reader in their lifetime.

If people think they were God's elect before the foundation of the earth and were saved before they were born and able to believe before they were born, they are wrong and need to get down on their knees in humility and supplication repenting of their sins which are many.

If people say the backslider was never saved they are wrong. Only a believer can lose faith.

Those who enter Heaven's glory are the ones who have persevered to the end, that is what persevered means.
.

 

[robert derrick]

I remember living on the edge of a small town in California on a very large plot of land. My stepfather grew everything in the way of fruit or vegetable as well as having, chickens, turkeys, pigeons and rabbits. My mother prepared and canned all of the plant types so that even during the off seasons we had plenty of vegetables and fruits available. She was very careful with the canning for a failure to properly seal one of those glass jars would result in spoiled inedible contents. In spite of her best efforts once in a while when I went out to the storage part of our garage to get her a jar of fruit or vegetable something had caused a seal to be broken. At the top of the jar usually mold of some kind had developed living off the contents. Throw away the contents, wash out the jar and reuse the jar next time around... unless of course the jar was broken.

Very good. Looks like the jelly jar quip bore some good fruit.

Paul travailed in birth that Christ be formed in the galatians again, who had been spoiled by the old moldy law of Moses, because they had let the seal of Christ be cracked by false persuasion of Judaism. Start over fresh.

But, if the mold is not checked and fills the whole jar, then it is broken and discarded completely: the dead branch fallen away from the Vine. Those for whom it is impossible to renew repentance, but had become reprobate to every good work: all the jelly rotten to the core.

So, we have parting in keeping the seal of the Spirit sealed upon us by keeping ourselves unspotted with mold of the world. (James 1) Or letting the old completely destroy the new, whether that of the old man of sin, or the old covenant of carnal commandment and law.