No, I quoted that translation to show you the proper translation, not disprove eternal torment. It's Jesus, the apostles, and Paul that disprove eternal torment. As you've conveniently neglected to address the evidence that flatly refutes your understanding of the passages and it refutes the translation of aion that all of your translations use. Eternal, everlasting, and forever, by definition do not and cannot end. Jesus, the apostles, and Paul, all say that aion ends. Thus, aion cannot mean eternal, everlasting, or forever. You've got two choices, either you believe it ends, as Jesus, the apostles, and Paul, say, or you believe what all of your English translators say. I bet I know which one you'll choose.
Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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Consider the flowing verses:
Revelation 20:14-15
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Psalms 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
To God Be The Glory
No Scripture? Of course not! You don't have any! Hell fire is everlasting. There will be BILLIONS in Hell who do not believe in Hell!
Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
Death does not mean "cease to exist"! Did Jesus cease to exist when He died on the Cross?
People go to hell BECAUSE they are sinners and NOT because they do not believe in hell! You are always ever [oops, pardon the pun] displaying yourself to be ignorant and lack knowledge of Scripture.
Mark 9:43-48 is a truism. You always ever [oops pardon the pun] speak that the hell fire will never be quenched forever, and that their worm will never die.
If the fire will never be quenched can you explain Jude 7 where it declares that even Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them in like manner, is suffering the vengeance of eternal fire?
If the fire is eternal in Sodom and Gomorrha, "Why can't we see the fire still burning today?"
Do you see the error of your interpretations? Do you still want to argue that the fires of hell will burn forever as exemplified in Jude 7 or is it a condition that all in hell will suffer complete destruction and will never ever rise again to live?
Really no Scripture? Hell fire is everlasting? Study your Bible!
To God Be The Glory
Do you think that calling someone ignorant makes you intelligent?
Of course, Jesus said so.
What's to explain? They will burn in Hell forever and ever.
Are you serious? That wasn't eternal fire. It's future.
You really struggle with eternal fire. It's quite simple.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Belief in the everlasting fire is not required for eternal residency therein.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
I already gave you Scripture, you ignored it. This passage says the fire is not quenched. The meaning of quench is to extinguish. It means to put out. It doesn't mean the fire won't go out. It simply means no one will put it out. However, what we see here is not souls or spirits suffering eternal torment. What's burning here are dead bodies. Jesus is referencing Isaiah 66.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:22-24 KJV)
Carcases, dead bodies. The fire won't be put out, it doesn't say the fire won't go out. We know that the fire doesn't burn forever because Jeremiah prophesied about this place.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:40 KJV)
Notice it's dead bodies and ashes, not souls or spirits. Notice it shall be made holy to the LORD. It's not a place of eternal torment.
Remember, Jesus, the apostles, and Paul, all said the aion will end. Something that ends is not eternal.
You don't even know that Jesus warned us of EVERLASTING FIRE?
OT does not overrule NT!
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
And of course you offer ZERO Scripture!
As I've shown, aion cannot mean everlasting. The fire isn't everlasting. I've shown this from both the grammar, that aion doesn't mean everlasting and from Scripture, showing that the place you claim is everlasting fire, will one day be made holy to the Lord.
No one said the OT overrules the NT. Both are Scripture. I've simply pointed out that Jesus was referring back to something Isaiah had said and it wasn't about eternal torment.
On the other hand, you've taken a passage here, Rev. 20:10, and presented it as proof that the dead are somehow alive after they die. However, this passage says nothing of what happens to men when they die. It lists three individuals, the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. It doesn't even say they are dead. So, to prove your point, that when people die they live on, you've used a passage that says nothing about what happens to men when they die, and says nothing about anyone at dying. This suggests to me that you really don't have a grasp of the subject, but rather, are just throwing out proof texts that someone told you proves your point. But, it obviously doesn't prove your point since it says nothing about what happens to men when they die or about anyone dying at all.
Stick with the NT. It might save you from the "everlasting fire" that Jesus said.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Still there!
You just can't let go even when @Butch5 expounded things to you as well as I.
You have admitted that Sodom and Gomorrha is future and therefore you don't believe that the Bible is also a historical book. FYI, anything future is called prophecy and Sodom and Gomorrha is literal. So if you didn't know it and like it or not, Sodom and Gomorrha did happen waaaay back then in the dawn of time! Study your Bible.
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Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Yep, still there!
That's a lie!
Yes I believe Sodom and "Gomorrha" is historical. Please stop lying. And just like Jesus, I believe the everlasting fire is their future, "forever and ever"!
me - "If the fire is eternal in Sodom and Gomorrha, "Why can't we see the fire still burning today?"
kcnalp - "Are you serious? That wasn't eternal fire. It's future."
Post #506.
me - "You have admitted that Sodom and Gomorrha is future and therefore you don't believe that the Bible is also a historical book."
But you don't believe Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed back then.
Now who bears false witness?
To God Be The Glory
kcnalp - "Are you serious? That wasn't eternal fire. It's future."
Post #506.
me - "You have admitted that Sodom and Gomorrha is future and therefore you don't believe that the Bible is also a historical book."
But you don't believe Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed back then.
Now who bears false witness?
To God Be The Glory
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Again, aion doesn't mean forever. I have to assume you've chosen to believe your English translators rather than Jesus, the apostles, and Paul.
You just described Total Depravity … man being incapable of choosing to do right even when they know what the right thing to do is, using only the power of HUMAN FREE WILL (which is really a will that has been given the freedom by God to follow its’ dark desires into the sin that it craves).
If only God would elect some, from before the foundation of the earth, to be objects of His love and receive grace when they fail and a “helper” (even the Holy Spirit) to create in them both the desire to do right and the ability to persevere in the faith. Oh wait, according to scripture, God did.
Therein lies the reason for the hope that we have within us and the confidence that Christ will lose none of the Saints that the Father has drawn to Him. Those called have been justified and will persevere to glorification … just as the Father planned from the beginning.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I admit I haven't read the replies in this thread yet, but I hope it's OK with you if I jump in here. I agree with everything you say above, but I have a different view of predestination than (from what I understand) Calvin had: Peter tells us that Christ is foreknown before the foundation of the world:
"Foreknown before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times for you" (1 Peter 1:20).
"Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24).
We know that those who have faith in Christ are in Christ, and He in them (John 14:16-20). So to me, it is only because He is before the foundation of the world that those who are in Him through faith in Him are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world:
"According as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." (Ephesians 1:4)
"Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" = predestined to salvation, but no man had been created before the foundation of the world, so only from the foundation of the world was the Kingdom prepared for those who were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world:
"Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matthew 25:34).
The Kingdom existed from the foundation of the world (Eden). This is also why our names are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (John 17:8).
The reason I have a problem getting my mind around that, is because there is still free will. No one who is saved is a robot.
Let's take a hypothetical example: Say a man is a genuine believer, and he's still young. Say he meets a beautiful Jewish girl from an Orthodox Jewish family, falls hopelessly in love and desperately wants to marry her, but she tells him she will only marry him if he converts to Judaism, letting him know he only has x amount of time to make up his mind.
So he feels torn in two, but he marries her, thinking, "I'll secretly keep following Jesus anyway, God will understand", but over time, life in his new family causes him to have to compromise more and more, until he loses the sense of the guidance and presence of the Spirit of Christ within him, and eventually winds up in total apostasy, no longer a believer.
It's a hypothetical scenario, I know, but it could happen (and probably already has). There was free will involved, and it was a test which he failed.
That is the problem I have with getting my mind around the idea that once a person is saved, he's always saved, and this is exactly what I think the author to the Hebrews meant when (probably to Jewish believers) he wrote:
Hebrews 6
4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.
7 (For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it, and brings forth plants fit for those by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God.
8 But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected and is near cursing, whose end is to be burned.)
It's a warning - and the above verses make it too obvious that it's not being spoken to unbelievers who were never saved.
I honestly don't think you're a Greek expert and qualified to rewrite our Bible. Why don't you post Scripture. It's not that difficult. I do it all the time.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Yep, still there! Even the JW's Bible agrees that you're wrong!
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