Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[robert derrick]

God saves sinners. Adam was not born with any sin.Gen1:31.....so he was not yet saved. Your whole carnal reasoning is unbiblical.
After the fall God clothed them with the skin of an animal. You have no basis for your claim.
You do not understand biblical salvation.

God saves sinners. Adam was not born with any sin.Gen1:31.....so he was not yet saved.

Neither was Lucifer, yet they both fell by transgression.

They were both under grace from their creation.

When saved, we are returned to grace of God without sin imputed to us, but if we sin willfully after the similitude of Adam's transgression, then we also fall from grace.

And if we repent not, then we return to the corrupt life of the old man even worse than before.

Grace does not save sin, nor sinners, but sinners are saved by grace, when we believe Jesus and keep His commandments.

Transgressors do not inherit the kingdom of God, whether by idolatry, fornicatin, drunkenness, etc...

So, if someone is believing and fulfilling His royal law to love God and one another as ourselves, then we do well, and if any are living in open transgression without shame before God, putting Christ to an open shame, then they are not inheriting the kingdom of God.

And if a believer once to believe that such who once confessed the faith of Jesus are now proven to have never really believed at all, because of the proof of ungodliness in their lives, then so be it.

You can right off any of them that you once wholeheartedly called brother and sister in the Lord, as just a hypocrite fromt he beginning. If it makes you feel better.

However, the false doctrine of eternally unconditionally secure does lead to letting sin abound, that grace may much more abound.

There is nothing eternally unconditionally secure: whether sun, moon, and stars, or souls of men.

 

[robert derrick]

There is always some Scripture that concludes a matter of debate in the church:

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is eternally secure salvation, just not unconditionally: there must be obedience to the faith. (Rom 1:5)

If we are to be raised together in the likeness of His resurrection, then we must walk together in the manner of His steps by obedience.

The forerunner of our salvation set the example of obedience, even unto the death of the cross.

Salvation begins the race of everlasting life by grace through faith, and ends in resurrection of life with obedience to the faith by grace. Without obedience, faith is dead, and grace cannot save through dead faith.

Once we cease obeying the faith, then we turn from the faith: a race half-run is as a cake half-turned.

The grace of God is given to the believer for help in time of need to overcome temptation, not to be excused in sin: no person sins under grace, with grace, nor graciously.

The grace of God is neither conditional nor unconditional, it is necessary for use in salvation. (Titus 3:14)

We either use it, or lose it. We must grow in grace by obedience, or fall from grace by rebellion.

If we reject the help of grace to overcome sin, then we despise the Spirit of grace for the sake of sin.

Those rejecting grace by willful disobedience to the Word of God are not under grace, but under condemnation:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God is not a respecter of persons, excusing the sins of one while judging the same sins of another.

The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.

Unconditional eternal security and obedience to the faith do not mix, no more than bitter water and sweet:

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.

Faith is the lump, obedience is the purge.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.

BEGIN FORMAL DEBATE:

It has been falsely claimed by my esteemed opponents that Perseverance of the Saints and O.S.A.S. (once saved always saved) are identical, that they spring from the non-biblical and false teachings of Calvinism and they both teach: “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

I offer the simplest possible response, just one word sums it up.

Balderdash!

Rather than fight rumors and innuendos and false claims about what Calvinism teaches with endless, unheeded protestations about “straw men” (I was told Calvinists have to use that word in every discussion ), I will simply present an explanation from R.C. Sproul of Ligonier Ministries written by a Presbyterian Calvinist to explain to other Calvinists the meaning of Perseverance of the Saints. I then invite my opponent, @Curtis to respond in proper debate form and refute my belief (Perseverance of the Saints) as defined by Mr Sproul as “unbiblical” using scripture and logic to refute the actual claim rather than to attack the imaginary claims of some “invisible Calvinists” that teach whatever it is that @Curtis may have heard.

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
FROM R.C. Sproul Apr 22, 2017

Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.

We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.

I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.

We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.

The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.

I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been preserved. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.​

Two things should be immediately apparent to any honest person reading the explanation of Perseverance of the Saints, by Dr. Sproul (even if you completely disagree with him and me and the P of TULIP):

1. To claim that it is “completely unbiblical” or that it is “found nowhere in the Bible”, as some have been known to say in the heat of discussions, it patently FALSE.
2. “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints teaches and both Dr Sproul and I adamantly reject even the notion that that is what we teach or believe.

I yield the “soapbox” to @Curtis to address how we (Calvinists like Sproul and I) have incorrectly understood (exegesis) the verses quoted above, or have read into them meanings that are not there (eisegesis). I also look forward to reading his scriptural proof that God does not preserve His blood-bought Saints from the moment they receive God’s gift until they arrive home to the reality of “eternal life” in Christ.

Arthur

I am not a Calvinist, but I ususally agree with RC Sproul, and quote him often. He is correct about OSAS. There are many aspects of our salvation/faith, and perservence is only one of them.
Faith is a gift.
The "gift of FAITH" is a result of an enormous array of preparation, guidance, lessons, involving many people and events that lead us to this divine appointment, which amounts to many years of Grace. When it is finally presented to the chosen individual, they are ready to receive it. They believe in Christ, because God finally convinced them of the TRUTH. Lifting the veil of blindness is part of God's process. He does not go through all this preparation with no knowledge of the end results. He knows. HE doesn't give a gift and then later, change His mind and take it away. This change of heart and mind that we receive grows but is perminent. When you are born again, it is a done deal. The seed was planted in fertile soil because God prepared it. The person now being in agreement with Christ, was enabled to believe, to follow and to persevere. RC is right, Perseverence is not something that we conjure up from the OLD SELF. No this was part of the gift as is the fruit of the Spirit. It is part of the power of God that we have access to.
Belief is a big word. If you believe in Christ that means you will trust Him with your life and do what He says.
The obedience is also part of this gift of faith. The word is the power of God to transform you -- all of you; your mind, will and emotions. It is all part of the package of FAITH.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

@atpollard Well you can't have your cake and eat it.

The Calvinist/Reformed rhetoric says when the saints get to heaven they see a banner saying, "You are here because of God's choosing".

By the same dogma, when the sinners are sent to the lake of fire they see a banner saying the same thing.

Therefore, by the same dogma, if grace-haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means, it must be by God's choosing, so any gripe of that ilk betrays an illogical mindset.

 

[Daniel Veler]

It’s fascinating how men will gag on a gnat and swallow camels. Eternal life was mentioned but not understood. How can you understand deep thing when you don’t understand the fundamentals?
This was was taken from the writing:
“does not preserve His blood-bought Saints from the moment they receive God’s gift until they arrive home to the reality of “eternal life” in Christ.”
As if it is something we come into after death. What a shame you argue over scriptures and ignor the truth.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm not sure what a "grace-hater" even is, but I surely don't understand how anyone can be presented with the following scriptural passages and not completely buy the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (emphasis mine, and this is surely not anywhere close to an exhaustive list):

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him Who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
[John 5:24]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
[John 6:37-40]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
[John 10:27-30]

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew (foreloved) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?... (N)either death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
[Romans 8:28-39]

In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
[Ephesians 1:13-14]

"...He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:6]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:3-5]

"Now to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever."
[Jude 24-25]​

This argument, like most others, is really about "free will" and the supposed denial of it by John Calvin and folks who believe he was right (rather than Jacobus Arminius) about who does what in salvation. Neither Calvin nor people who understand scripture in the same way as he did ~ and Augustine (rather than Pelagius) and the other Reformers and so many since ~ surely do not deny human free will in any way, but only understand that, regarding God's salvation, human free will is in the context of God's sovereignty. As Paul says,

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy."
[Romans 9:16]​

The implication is that humans do not not have free will ~ so they do indeed make a free choice regarding God's great salvation ~ but that it depends on God's mercy and compassion and whether He extends it (conferring His salvation on the person via His Holy Spirit) or not. As Jesus Himself said,

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you."
[John 15:16]​

And regarding those who "fall away," which is what we are talking about regarding whether perseverance of the saints is valid doctrine or not, those who do fall away were never really heart-regenerate Christians in the first place. As John says,

"(those who have fallen away) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
[1 John 2:19]​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Enoch111]

Faith is a gift.

It depends on which faith you are referring to. Saving faith is not a gift, since God will have all men to be saved. But there is (a) the spiritual gift of faith given to some believers (presumably extraordinary faith) and (b) there is the spiritual fruit of faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

So when Calvinists come along and say that God chooses (elects) some for salvation and others for damnation (which is what Sproul believes) they are actually CONTRADICTING Christ and the Bible. Now when someone contradicts God, they are already in hot water.

 

[TEXBOW]

I'm not sure what a "grace-hater" even is, but I surely don't understand how anyone can be presented with the following scriptural passages and not completely buy the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (emphasis mine, and this is surely not anywhere close to an exhaustive list):

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him Who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
[John 5:24]

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
[John 6:37-40]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
[John 10:27-30]

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew (foreloved) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?... (N)either death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
[Romans 8:28-39]

In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
[Ephesians 1:13-14]


"...He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:6]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:3-5]

"Now to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever."
[Jude 24-25]​

This argument, like most others, is really about "free will" and the supposed denial of it by John Calvin and folks who believe he was right (rather than Jacobus Arminius) about who does what in salvation. Neither Calvin nor people who understand scripture in the same way as he did ~ and Augustine (rather than Pelagius) and the other Reformers and so many since ~ surely do not deny human free will in any way, but only understand that, regarding God's salvation, human free will is in the context of God's sovereignty. As Paul says,

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy."
[Romans 9:16]​

The implication is that humans do not not have free will ~ so they do indeed make a free choice regarding God's great salvation ~ but that it depends on God's mercy and compassion and whether He extends it (conferring His salvation on the person via His Holy Spirit) or not. As Jesus Himself said,

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you."
[John 15:16]​

And regarding those who "fall away," which is what we are talking about regarding whether perseverance of the saints is valid doctrine or not, those who do fall away were never really heart-regenerate Christians in the first place. As John says,

"(those who have fallen away) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
[1 John 2:19]​

Grace and peace to all.

God foreknew from the beginning of time who would by faith believe and who would not.
God predestinated all the promises of eternal life, justification, his image, glorification etc to those who he knew would make the choice to believe. He knew them that would follow him before time begin. The difference we have is (I think) you believe that those promises are given to you without any need for you to believe by faith. God makes that choice for you before you are born. I believe that those promises start at salvation to the rapture. In short my (P) starts at salvation and your (P) starts at creation. God knew before you were born that you would receive the promises because he knew before you were born what decisions you were going to make. That does not translate into God made the decisions for you.

 

[PinSeeker]

"God foreknew from the beginning of time who would by faith believe and who would not."

God's foreknowledge is not mere knowing what will happen in the future. It cannot be, because in that sense, God foreknows everyone and what they will do, whereas Paul, in Romans 8:29, is talking about a very specific group of people ("those He foreknew"). So it really should be understood as those He foreloved... loved beforehand... before the foundation of the world, actually. Not that He doesn't love all his creation; He does, but not in the same sovereign, distinguishing way, which is what Paul is talking about to the end of Romans 11.​

"God predestinated... those who he knew would make the choice to believe."

Well, yes, but not because He knew they would make the choice to believe. As Paul says:

"(God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." [Romans 9:15-16]​

"God makes that choice for you before you are born."

Absolutely. Before we have done anything good or bad, as he says of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9:11. Jacob represents you and me, there.​

"...salvation to the rapture"

Well, salvation to Jesus's return, which will certainly be rapturous. But no believer is going to be taken out of the world for any length of time. When Jesus returns, the judgment will ensue, after which the unrepentant will be sent away, and eternity will begin.​

"In short my (P) starts at salvation"

Agreed. "My P" could not start at creation, because at God's creation, I didn't exist yet, let alone was I yet born again of the Spirit. ​

"That does not translate into God made the decisions for you."

Agreed.​

Grace and peace to you, TEXBOW!

 

[PinSeeker]

It depends on which faith you are referring to. Saving faith is not a gift, since God will have all men to be saved. But there is (a) the spiritual gift of faith given to some believers (presumably extraordinary faith) and (b) there is the spiritual fruit of faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

No, Robert Bruno is right; saving faith is the gift of God. As Paul says:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:4-10]

Yes, He desires that all people would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:4, but not everyone will, and God will compromise His justice for no one. But he does have mercy and compassion on some, those whom He chooses.

So when Calvinists come along and say that God chooses (elects) some for salvation and others for damnation (which is what Sproul believes) they are actually CONTRADICTING Christ and the Bible.

Well, I think you agree, Enoch, that ~ to use your own words here ~ God chooses (elects) some for salvation. But by doing so, He is purposely not choosing to elect others. God is not absent minded.

The fact is that we are all condemned at birth (because of Adam's sin and the resulting sinful nature that we all initially have; this is the human condition). But, like you say, He does choose some for salvation; these are His elect. The others... Well, God gives them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. So, whereas for Christians there is no more condemnation (Romans 8:1) from the time they come to Christ, those who remain non-Christians remain under condemnation and fully deserving of God's wrath.

Now when someone contradicts God, they are already in hot water.

Yes, I agree. But perhaps when it is not intentional, it's not as offensive to Him.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Enoch111]

No, Robert Bruno is right; saving faith is the gift of God.

If that is true then ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE should receive this gift. After all God wants everyone to be saved. Are are you not aware of this fundamental Gospel truth?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Saving faith is not a gift, since God will have all men to be saved.

Those who believe in Jesus will be saved, those who don't will not - He said so.

But there is (a) the spiritual gift of faith given to some believers (presumably extraordinary faith) and (b) there is the spiritual fruit of faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

Everything good comes from God. Faith is spiritual and so is the fruit of the Spirit.

So when Calvinists come along and say that God chooses (elects) some for salvation and others for damnation (which is what Sproul believes) they are actually CONTRADICTING Christ and the Bible. Now when someone contradicts God, they are already in hot water.

You know before Calvin, the doctrine of Election was given by God.
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Rom. 8:28, 29

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Ephesians 1:4-5 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

Galatians 1:15-16 But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him to reveal his Son to me so that I would proclaim the Good News about Jesus to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 43:10 “But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says the Lord. “You are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God— there never has been, and there never will be.

John 6:44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

John 6:37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

You were chosen Enoch111. Now don't you feel loved?

 

[kcnalp]

Grace haters?

 

[JunChosen]

If that is true then ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE should receive this gift. After all God wants everyone to be saved. Are are you not aware of this fundamental Gospel truth?

I'm afraid you have misunderstood and misinterpreted fundamental and principle truths, like 2 Peter 2:9, as also you have done with many other Bible truths!

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but long-suffering to us-ward (believers), not willing that any (believers) should perish, but that all (believers) should come to repentance."

The only ones that will repent are the true believers that God predestined/elected to salvation before the foundation of the world.

In contrast, we read:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stoned them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not."

Time and again in these C.B. Forums that without the teachings of the Reformers, Salvation will never have been understood. Most will have followed the false teachings of Arminius that taught people have absolute "free will" to choose for God.

Yet Jesus said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.." (John 15:15).

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

If there is none righteous and no one seeks after God, who then can be saved? With God's love and grace for His creation, He predestined and elected some to salvation before the foundation of the world. But there are those who makes a fist at God and say, we are going to hell because You did not safe us, not realize that people go to hell because they are sinners!

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh. Proverbs 1:26.

There are many more like passages but the above should suffice.

To God Be The Glory

 

[PinSeeker]

If that is true then ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE should receive this gift.

If you were to change 'should' to 'could,' then I would agree. Yes, if God were to have mercy on everyone, then they would. But He doesn't. He's very clear about that, saying, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion." Will you answer back to God and counsel Him on what He should do? I would advise against that, but no matter, really.

After all God wants everyone to be saved. Are are you not aware of this fundamental Gospel truth?

Again, yes, He desires that all people would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:4, but not everyone will. Many will remain unrepentant and thus uncovered by the blood of Christ, and will be subject to the wages of sin, which is death. God will compromise His justice for no one. But, like I said, in His grace, He does have mercy and compassion on some, His elect, those whom He chooses, and these are the ones who will, at their appointed times, come to the knowledge of the truth.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Enoch111]

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but long-suffering to us-ward (believers), not willing that any (believers) should perish, but that all (believers) should come to repentance."

You have substituted believers for "any" and "all". Well just to make sure that you would not change God's plans and purposes the Lord Jesus Christ refuted your theology in John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Now does the word "world" include absolutely every human being? Absolutely. Or do you want to challenge Christ Himself? Therefore "any" means "whosoever" and "whosoever means anyone and everyone. Therefore the Calvinists have manufactured another gospel.

 

[JunChosen]

You have substituted believers for "any" and "all". Well just to make sure that you would not change God's plans and purposes the Lord Jesus Christ refuted your theology in John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Now does the word "world" include absolutely every human being? Absolutely. Or do you want to challenge Christ Himself? Therefore "any" means "whosoever" and "whosoever means anyone and everyone. Therefore the Calvinists have manufactured another gospel.

Again, I say this kindly and with love, you just don't understand and misinterpret Scripture. To your vantage point the "world" means each and every but interpretation and to God's perspective John 3:17 merely means that in all of the world there is only one Savior!

However, in contrast, Matthew 1:21 teaches:
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Now, according to this verse, is there any indication at all that Jesus will save everybody in the world as you claim?

I suggest you read the teachings of Calvin and the Reform persuasion for there is much wealth of information and knowledge to be gained, especially in their teachings concerning salvation.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You have substituted believers for "any" and "all". Well just to make sure that you would not change God's plans and purposes the Lord Jesus Christ refuted your theology in John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Now does the word "world" include absolutely every human being? Absolutely. Or do you want to challenge Christ Himself? Therefore "any" means "whosoever" and "whosoever means anyone and everyone. Therefore the Calvinists have manufactured another gospel.

That they "might be saved" means maybe. HE offers a way for all, He calls all men to Himself, but not all men hear and believe.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life and He who doea not nwlieve thw Son shall not see life nut the wrath of God abides on him"
John 3:36
Judgment is coming soon. It will be cut and dry, you are either with Him or without Him.
" Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life and few find it." Matt. 7:13, 14

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm afraid you have misunderstood and misinterpreted fundamental and principle truths, like 2 Peter 2:9, as also you have done with many other Bible truths!

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but long-suffering to us-ward (believers), not willing that any (believers) should perish, but that all (believers) should come to repentance."

The only ones that will repent are the true believers that God predestined/elected to salvation before the foundation of the world.

You have substituted believers for "any" and "all". Well just to make sure that you would not change God's plans and purposes the Lord Jesus Christ refuted your theology in John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Now does the word "world" include absolutely every human being? Absolutely. Or do you want to challenge Christ Himself? Therefore "any" means "whosoever" and "whosoever means anyone and everyone. Therefore the Calvinists have manufactured another gospel.

All does mean all, but 'all' can mean every person or only all of a specific group depending on the context. In John 3:17, John is certainly affirming that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to save all, but he is not implying that it is meant to be effectual for all. It is helpful to focus on the word 'might' in that verse. The word there (obviously) is 'might,' rather than 'would.' Again, Christ's work on the cross is sufficient for the redemption of all people, but it is not, in the end, effectual for all.

Now, Peter is saying the same thing in 2 Peter 3:9 that Paul said in 1 Timothy 2:4, that "God our Savior... desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." But this does nothing to alter the fact that Paul enunciates in Romans 9 that God chooses (elects) some for salvation ~ He has mercy and compassion on some but not others ~ and in doing so, He purposely does not elect others. Using what Paul said earlier in Romans 1, God purposely "gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator... (f)or this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions" (Romans 1:24-26).

Regarding the use of 'whosoever' ('whoever' in other translations; there is no difference) used by John (John 3:16-19) and Paul (Romans 9:33), John and Paul are both referencing the prophet Joel, there, whose exact quote is as follows:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."
[Joel 2:32, emphasis mine]​

So, JunChosen is correct, that God does not call everyone to His salvation, but everyone whom God does call in this way will, inevitably (and subsequently) call on the Lord and be saved. Now, there is a general call issued in Scripture; salvation is available to all, and all are invited. But this inward call, issued by God via His Holy Spirit, is given inwardly to each member of God's elect at his or her appointed time (as in Acts 13:48).

No, Calvinists do not in any way "manufacture another gospel" but affirm the one true Gospel.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[JunChosen]

Now, there is a general call issued in Scripture; salvation is available to all, and all are invited.

In all of my reading Scripture and I must have missed what you've stated above, I don't recall that there is a call issued in Scripture that salvation is available to all, and that all are invited.

What I do know is that God's call to the world is to believe in His Son, and that salvation is a done deal for all believers before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8-9).

Also, seeing that there is none righteous no, not one and that none seeks after God (Romans 3:10-11).

Therefore I do not see for a general call issued to the world that salvation is still available, nor is there any kinds of invitation for salvation offered.

Yes, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but only those that are saved from the foundation of the world will hear the true Gospel.

To God Be The Glory