haz
Member
Hi haz,
Here is the rest of my reply to your previous post. Later, I shall address your replies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[/font][/font][/size]
On all the points you've mentioned, there is much more BIble study to be assimilated into your grasp of the breadth of the issues. Unbelief isn't the only sin. That is clear from Paul's lists of the sins of the flesh in Romans 1, Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6 - and there are other lists in the shorter epistles - including the effects of wrong attitudes to truth. If you merely roll all those up under unbelief, it's little wonder you want to extend grace to yourself to cover the meaning of many other kinds of shortcoming - none of which is necessary if you walk in the fulness of truth.
[/font][/font][/size]
Ek has not 'sought to undermine the faith of believers'. He has sought to warn you that what you're believing falls far short of the full gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You may carry on believing as you prefer, of course, but you are way off getting a handle on the power of an endless life which is made available to us now through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You appear to have no idea of the facts. Jesus Christ gave His all for you. He has every right to the whole of your life from the moment you first believed (and before) for the rest of eternity. And that claim is the minimum we should acknowledge. What Ek is concerned about is, that you (and others) will die (and after that the judgment Heb 9:27) and you will not be raised to eternal life, because the offer of salvation you've heard to date, is not enough to save you. Read Psa 22 as an account of what was going through Jesus' mind on the cross. Right up until v 21, there is anguish, then there is a complete change of tone into victory. He was grappling with Satan there. He beat Satan there. He gives you (free gift) the victory over all sin - but you have to take it and walk in it.
[/font][/font][/size]
That's the way it appears, because you are the legalist amongst us, thinking that the perfection is attained by what 'we' 'do' 'in the flesh'. You still don't see that we are given our bodies as a vehicle for the Holy Spirit to enable us (by God's grace) to live like Jesus lived through His body. These are the works of righteousness which are by faith, not 'the law'. Whether you realise it or not, you are still on the self-effort bandwagon. That's why 'the gospel of grace' which you've heard is so appealing. It makes little demand on you except belief in the name of Jesus. Your gospel is so far removed from the gospel in the NT, its more a gospel of another Jesus. And don't be mistaken... there are spirits that go along with that gospel, because sin and the flesh are not dealt the death blow by it, which would release you into the life of God. When we die - that fiery baptism of which Jesus told His disciples - we will finally be free of the fallen physical side of 'our old man', Romans 6:6, and we will receive an incorruptible body. Till then, we have to treat the issues which arise from our fallen body, extremely seriously; not ignore the solution which God has provided.
I don't say these things to discourage you. It may be that you have indeed received the incorruptible seed. But the only way forward is to keep pulling your life into line with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. What you post here, sincerely as you do, does not tie up properly with the beliefs of the historical Christian faith.
[/size]
I don't believe either the 10 commandments or the law of righteousness 'aka' the law of sin and death.
The law of sin and death can be teased out a little. The law of sin, is the spiritual corruption of our beings which occurred when Adam sinned - Rom 5:12 - by which mankind became subject to death also. I recommend you find Young's Literal Translation online, and read Rom 5 - 8 in it, because he shows every place that 'sin' is a noun - the power of sin. It is then easier to see that when we 'do' sin - the active verb - it is the outworking of that power of sin in us which Jesus conquered on the cross for us.
Let's look at the verses around the one you quoted. Romans 9 -
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
Put this together with 1 Corinthians 9:20a And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews
to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
It seems to me that Paul well understood that keeping the law was external - it didn't change a man's heart - but he felt free to join in with those customs so as to be able to share about Jesus Messiah with Jews who had never heard of Him. I believe this is what he's getting at - because as the Jews in Romans 9:31 and 32, they were trying to be counted righteous with God by keeping 'the law' which could not change their hearts. Way back in Deuteronomy, God had complained about the 'stiff-necked' children of Israel and even from then began inviting them to have their hearts circumcised. I think He was telling them something, rather than expecting them to 'have their hearts circumcised' at that time. But again, it is the gospel that we can have a profound change of heart through the circumcision of Jesus Christ. This change of heart (attitude) is what enables us through Christ, to be able to 'keep' 'the law of righteousness'.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.
Christ is the stumblingstone.
Luke 20:18 Whoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken;
but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men,
but chosen of God, [and] precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious:
and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient,
the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word,
being disobedient... '
Hi dragonfly,
Just a quick note as it's bedtime here, but I have found your references to scriptures showing a lack of spiritual understanding. Can I suggest posts with not so many points so that individual issues can be discussed a bit more thoroughly. Hopefully this will make for shorter posts as well.
BTW, a Christian's body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10). Your suggestion that I might be the legalist claiming that I believe ' perfection is attained by what 'we' 'do' 'in the flesh' is inconsistent with my belief that the body is dead.
And remember....shorter posts...please :)
