Greetings and Salutations

[aspen]

If prophecy fails to come to pass, is the person who proclaims it a false prophet?

 

[aspen]

Has Jesus returned?

 

[aspen]

Why do JWs reject the Trinity based on a mistranslation of John 1:1?

 

[aspen]

How do you know which JWs are part of the 144,000 and in Heaven, based on a mistranslation of Rev chapter 7 and 14?

 

[JPPT1974]

Hello and welcome feel free to post, do not be shy at all! God bless!

 

[Marakorpa]

Sorry, not interested. I have had countless conversations with JW's during my life..and we are for sure not on the same page. Because I am over the age of "three score years and ten" ....and in that time and since, I have found that they just change what they say they believe!!
Back in the sixties...they would never talk about the blood of Jesus.
And other times I would often say- " Okay, lets pray together and see what God says about this "thus and so" that you are trying to tell me.
And they would not pray with me and ran a mile.
I am sure since the sixties you can tell us all the different things that they now believe.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I do not really want to listen..but, thank you very much for the offer.

I guess that’s why God gave us the right to choose. I can't imagine any JW running a mile at anything that is put to them, and this is the sort of conjecture that I would like to talk about. The JW organisation has admitted their mistakes over the years, and have corrected them when Bible scripture is studied and more understood. It is a criticism I know, but not many religions admit their mistakes.

The JWs would consider which God you wanted to pray to, as they only pray to Jehovah through his only begotten son, Jesus Christ. Which God were you offering to pray to with them. This is how the Bible instructs Christians to pray.

 

[aspen]

It seems to me that truly correcting mistakes may involve reconsidering everything taught by the organization - it is not unheard of. The Worldwide Church of God renounced the mistakes of Armstrong and was welcomed into the Christian Community.

And as far as JWs teaching door to door - yes, they give up, as soon as their teachings are compared to Church history.

 

[Marakorpa]

How do you know which JWs are part of the 144,000 and in Heaven, based on a mistranslation of Rev chapter 7 and 14?

Do you understand the Heavenly Kingdom or which Jesus is now the king as promised by his Father at the contest of supremacy by Satan when the Scripture states a "She" will bruise the head of the serpent, Satan. That "she" is the Heavenly Kingdom and the Disciples asked Jesus what was their reward for following him (Jesus). The heavenly Kingdom has not been set up then but those that were faithful to Jesus word and were baptised were under the "Assured Expectation" of being a part of the 144,000. The 144000 would only be accepted if they stayed faithful till death and then they would become "Kings and Priests" for mankind in the new paradise earth, under the Kingship of Jesus. There are still a few of these ones on earth today, but the numbers are running low, and when the last of them are taken up the great tribulation will come in full force as the battle of Armageddon rids the world of all the wicked ones and Satan is bound for a thousand years.

The "remnant" as they are called partake of the symbols that Jesus set up after the last supper only once a year on the Jewish date of Nisan 14.

You say "Misinterpretation" would you please put your interpretation here for comparison?

From JW.org

God selects a limited number of faithful Christians who, after their death, will be resurrected to life in heaven. (1 Peter 1:3, 4) Once they have been chosen, they must continue to maintain a Christian standard of faith and conduct in order not to be disqualified from receiving their heavenly inheritance.—Ephesians 5:5; Philippians 3:12-14.

What will those who go to heaven do there?
They will serve alongside Jesus as kings and priests for 1,000 years. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) They will form the “new heavens,” or heavenly government, that will rule over the “new earth,” or earthly society. Those heavenly rulers will help restore mankind to the righteous conditions that God originally intended.—Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:13.

How many will be resurrected to heaven?
The Bible indicates that 144,000 people will be resurrected to heavenly life. (Revelation 7:4) In the vision recorded at Revelation 14:1-3, the apostle John saw “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000.” In this vision, “the Lamb” represents the resurrected Jesus. (John 1:29; 1 Peter 1:19) “Mount Zion” represents the exalted position of Jesus and the 144,000 who rule with him in the heavens.—Psalm 2:6; Hebrews 12:22.

Those “who are called and chosen” to rule with Christ in the Kingdom are referred to as a “little flock.” (Revelation 17:14; Luke 12:32) This shows that they would be relatively few in comparison with the complete number of Jesus’ sheep.—John 10:16.

 

[Marakorpa]

The Jws know that the Catholic Church states that if a difference between tradition and scripture takes place then the Catholic stand is to take tradition as the way to go. This is far from any Bible principle. One such tradition is in the face of the scripture “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”

You know that tradition, don't you? But for those that don't the Catholic tradition states the Mary has entered the heavenly realm in her earthly form
—1Co 15:50-54.

I also know that there is great animosity and lack of any tolerance from the Catholics towards the JWs, so I advise others to look carefully where the attack is coming from.

If we are going to talk about mind changing, think about Joan 'd' Arc. This girl wanted the French Pope to sit on the papal throne, yes there were a few that called themselves The Pope of the Roman Church; however after a long and well documented "court" case Joan was burnt at the stake. Later, of course, the Catholics had a mind change of a great magnitude and made Joan a Saint....That didn't stop the burns from killing her and she would have been continually burnt in the Catholic Hell fire. Does the Church have the power to send and retrieve people from Hell, and more so make them a saint in the bargain?

 

[Marakorpa]

How do you know which JWs are part of the 144,000 and in Heaven, based on a mistranslation of Rev chapter 7 and 14?

It seems to me that truly correcting mistakes may involve reconsidering everything taught by the organization - it is not unheard of. The Worldwide Church of God renounced the mistakes of Armstrong and was welcomed into the Christian Community.

And as far as JWs teaching door to door - yes, they give up, as soon as their teachings are compared to Church history.

I do not believe you, but once your Church History was the topic, I reckon any good thinking person would wish to leave. You must admit that the Dark Ages with its inquisitions was not a very good era for the Christian faith. And as is being proven now, the later years are not auguring well for the Roman Church or its 240 different denominations.

You said you would give your opinion if I asked you a question: How many pagan origin rituals are in use in the Catholic doctrine, and why?

 

[aspen]

I do not believe you, but once your Church History was the topic, I reckon any good thinking person would wish to leave. You must admit that the Dark Ages with its inquisitions was not a very good era for the Christian faith. And as is being proven now, the later years are not auguring well for the Roman Church or its 240 different denominations.

You said you would give your opinion if I asked you a question: How many pagan origin rituals are in use in the Catholic doctrine, and why?

Pagan rituals? There are no pagan rituals within the Catholic Church that are sanctioned by the Vatican.

 

[aspen]

Where does the Catholic Church state that Tradition is the final authority?

 

[Marakorpa]

Pagan rituals? There are no pagan rituals within the Catholic Church that are sanctioned by the Vatican.

Xmas, Easter, praying to plaster replicas, rosary beads,chanting, and a few more. Constantine was the pagan Roman Emperor who wanted to embrace the new Christian religion as a political move, paganism was the religion of Babylon and Constantine knew that he had to appease the Romans and the Babylonians to make his move work for the sake of political power. A Babylonians were called a papist, and this title was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church, but later as it was connected to paganism it was not very much applied other than the Papal Palace and where legal documents are to be used and signed.

Babylon and Rome worshipped many gods and the line up of saints in the Catholic religion help inculcate the pagans into the "Christian" creed. This is in spite of the Bible saying that Jehovah is the only one to receive prayers and through his son Jesus.

There are many sanctioned rites around the globe, such as blessing the fishing fleets, which was usually done via pagan gods but taken over by the missionaries that were converting the masses.

I really do not want to get into this discussion as opening the books on Catholicism would upset many people, and that is not my aim.

I find this snippet interesting: The only place that the Pope has a bullet proof vehicle to travel around in is in Rome.

 

[mjrhealth]

If there are only 144 000 of the JW's going to heaven what happens to the rest, and who makes the choice????

 

[aspen]

Xmas, Easter

So....based on the superstitions taught by your church.....you have been told that engaging in Christian activities on the same days that Pagans once celebrated holidays qualifies as a Pagan practice? Do you know that we also drink the same water as our ancestors who were not Christians? We sleep during the same time periods and we may even work during the same time periods? We build roads like the Romans and think deep thoughts like Greeks! We even pray......knowing that Zorastrians and Hindus prayed before us!!

Outrageous! A scandal indeed...

praying to plaster replicas

Is there actually a Catholic you know personally, who prays to plaster replicas? If so, you better let them know immediately that those statues can't hear a word they are telling them......kind of silly to pray to plaster, although a lot less tacky than plastic, I imagine. The Church does not condone praying to material objects.

rosary beads

Never heard of a Pagan praying the Rosary, but who knows? Certainly can't hurt!

chanting

St. Gregory would be so disappointed by your condemnation of singing the Psalms....i can promise you that I know of no Pagan who chant the Psalms.

and a few more

Of course there are.....it's always the case with Pagan practices! Downright insidious..

Constantine was the pagan Roman Emperor who wanted to embrace the new Christian religion as a political move

Most Emporers are known for speaking to their base....look at Trump and white supremacists

Constantine issued the edict of Milan 313 AD - it continued the practice of tolerance of Christianity started by earlier Emperors.

Missorium of Emperor Theodosius I, made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.

Nicene Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 AD, when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion.

According to Jaslov Pelikan, a church historian, Constantine converted to Christ on his deathbed. Constantine did not hold any church office. He was interested only in stabilizing his newly conquered Empire and getting the different Christians on the same page - lots of nasty heresies floating around in the early 300s - Gnosticism, Arianism, Docetism, Sabellianism (JWs would love Sabellius, if they knew church history) that had to be identified and rooted out.

19th century movements (mostly stemming from Millerites) like JWs and their little sister, the Adventists love to believe that Constantine was a Catholic Pope - he was not. Neither was he involved in compiling the New Testament or developing the doctrine of the Trinity or Incarnation. He was a politician.

paganism was the religion of Babylon

Paganism was a multicultural religion practiced in the Roman Empire - it include the God of the Greeks and the Parthenon and the Sun and the Emperor, himself.

and Constantine knew that he had to appease the Romans and the Babylonians to make his move work for the sake of political power.

Actually, he was more into subduing the Romans.....The whole conquering Rome thingy?

A Babylonians were called a papist, and this title was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church, but later as it was connected to paganism it was not very much applied other than the Papal Palace and where legal documents are to be used and signed.

People of the Babylonian Empire were Babylonians and that Empire was long gone, by Constantines time. Babylon was also a term used to describe Pagan Rome by early Christians. The derogative term 'papist' came out of the English Reformation - 1200 years after Constantine. Roman Catholics do not use the term.

Babylon and Rome worshipped many gods and the line up of saints in the Catholic religion help inculcate the pagans into the "Christian" creed

The Early Christian Church worshiped one God. Christianity developed from Judaism, which was strictly monotheistic. When the Early Christians were eventually kicked out of the Jewish Temple and Paul began planting churches through the Roman World, they continued to worship one God - three in one, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit. The recognition of saints in the early church stemmed from the persecution and sacrifices of the martyrs - they were never worshiped in the early church and they are not worshiped today.

This is in spite of the Bible saying that Jehovah is the only one to receive prayers and through his son Jesus

Jehovah is a mistranslation of Yahweh and one of the more convincing reasons that Jehovahs Witnesses need educated theologians in their church. Also, where does it say (outside the NWT) that only God can be prayed to? Only God may be worshiped.

There are many sanctioned rites around the globe, such as blessing the fishing fleets, which was usually done via pagan gods but taken over by the missionaries that were converting the masses.

Placing Christ at the center and focus of a ritual is not sinful or Pagan. It is superstitious to believe that any ritual has power, in and of itself.

I really do not want to get into this discussion as opening the books on Catholicism would upset many people, and that is not my aim.

Sure.....now you tell me. Well, you better stick with JW doctrine...much safer

I find this snippet interesting: The only place that the Pope has a bullet proof vehicle to travel around in is in Rome.

The current Pope doesn't use a Popemobile. He drives a simple Fiat.

 

[Job]

If there are only 144 000 of the JW's going to heaven what happens to the rest, and who makes the choice????

There's a sign up sheet in the lobby of every Kingdom Hall.

o

 

[tabletalk]

The Church does not condone praying to material objects.

Except for the bread and wine of your Eucharist.

 

[aspen]

I do not believe you, but once your Church History was the topic, I reckon any good thinking person would wish to leave. You must admit that the Dark Ages with its inquisitions was not a very good era for the Christian faith. And as is being proven now, the later years are not auguring well for the Roman Church or its 240 different denominations.

It's ok. I didn't ask you to believe me. The two men from the nearby Kingdom Hall asked me if I wanted to take Bible lessons from them and I warned them I am Catholic. I guess they were feeling all giddy about snatching me from the jaws of the beast because they wanted to get started immediately. it didn't go well from the beginning because I didn't agree with them that the world was a hellhole and out to destroy true Christians. Also, when they brought up a church teaching and it matched up with an early church heresy more closely than the Early Christian Church......they actually told me that they were not used to talking with people who knew anything about Christianity. They made it two more weeks and finally said, 'it sounds like you understand what you believe' and never came back. I wonder if I am now shunned or one of the forbidden.

Christian Church history has been continuous, from Pentecost until today. It includes all churches who recognize the true nature of God and accept the Nicene Creed. The Great Apostacy is a myth, with no evidence in any history outside of 19th century church movements.

The Dark Ages were not pleasant for anyone. However, the time period did produce universities, early scientific practices, medical treatment, the Renaissance and eventually, the Enlightenment. It also produced rich spiritual writings by the Italian, Spanish and German Catholic Mystics.

Thankfully, the idea of separating church and state led to a reprieve from kings and church leaders from using each other to fight for power and territory. Hopefully, it will continue.

 

[aspen]

Except for the bread and wine of your Eucharist.

Oh no! We would never pray to wine or bread. We adore the Blood and Body of Christ when we receive the Eucharist. In fact, the church teaches that nonCatholics should not receive the Eucharist because they do not recognize the Real Presence and would be in essence worshiping wine and bread....

 

[tabletalk]

Oh no! We would never pray to wine or bread. We adore the Blood and Body of Christ when we receive the Eucharist. In fact, the church teaches that nonCatholics should not receive the Eucharist because they do not recognize the Real Presence and would be in essence worshiping wine and bread....

Wouldn't that also mean non-Catholics worship a different God than Catholics? Protestants, for example, worship a God they can't see;Catholics worship a God they can see.