Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Davy]

Absolutely Christ reigns over and through his church. But...that's not all, according to scripture.


..that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. -Ephesians 1:20–23

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. -Colossians 2:10

These verses tell us that Christ...right now, is above ALL rule, authority and power. He is not just head over the Church.

You quote Luke 4 above, the temptation of Jesus, where Satan offers him the kingdoms of the world, which are his. But this is before the cross, where Satan is dealt a decisive defeat and the gospel goes forth throughout the world to set people free. It is before Christ's ascension, where he 'sits down at the right hand of the Father, above ALL rule, authority and power'.
To understand ALL these verses with equal weight and clarity, we need to understand that earth may have been solely Satan's before the cross, but after it, Christ is the one ruling and Satan is lashing out in death pangs, because he knows his time is short.

Sorry, but God (including Lord Jesus), has ordained those kingdoms to Satan for THIS world, and that is not going to change until our Lord Jesus returns at the 2nd coming. Does God's Word show this as fact? YES! Right here for one example...

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

Moreover, we are told this for who is going to be in control over ALL nations, and over ALL peoples, for the end, prior to our Lord Jesus' return...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

That isn't some event of the past. It's still in our near future. That shows you are fighting against God by NOT studying and understanding what He told us in His Word!

Men's doctrines will surely... mislead you IF you allow it. And a good way to be misled today is to trust what is taught in the pulpits without checking if out for yourself in God's Holy Writ. Words of sweetness and love have always been one of the downfalls of God's people, their listening to soothsayers instead of Him in His written Word of Truth.

Isa 30:8-13
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, "See not"; and to the prophets, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."

12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
KJV

 

[Davy]

You claim that John 18:33-36 is proof that Christ's Kingdom is of a future time and order, but I disagree.

Then you are disagreeing with Lord Jesus, because He meant what He said there. His kingdom is NOT of this world (meaning this present world). And I have shown already enough Scripture that proves... that is exactly what He meant!

 

[Naomi25]

'Theology' and all the unbiblical doctrines and theories, are soon to be dumped into the garbage can.
Your idea that Revelation is a Book of encouragement to those under persecution, is very hard to swallow, I reject it; on the grounds that far from encouragement, it describes terrors and final Judgment.

Forgive me, but...are you serious?
The book of Revelation does, most certainly, describe terrors and final Judgement...but for non-believers...thus the hope and encouragement for the Saints.
For example:
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" - Rev 1:3

and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood. and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. - Revelation 1:5–7

To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’ -Revelation 2:5

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’ -Revelation 2:11

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’ -Revelation 2:17

The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ -Revelation 2:26–29

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. -Revelation 3:5

The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. -Revelation 3:12

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. -Revelation 3:21

And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.” -Revelation 5:9–10

saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” -Revelation 7:3

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” -Revelation 7:9–10

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” -Revelation 7:14–17

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. -Revelation 9:4

I could go on....and on. But I believe the point is made. Revelation has two major themes...judgement, and triumph. Or, you could also say, triumph through judgement. The Saints, by reading a book like this, see that even in persecution or death, Christ still triumphs over his enemies...and thus, so do we. Death is not the second death, and we have faith in our resurrection because Christ showed us the firstfruits of it. Revelation opens a window for a persecuted Church to see the spiritual warfare that is happening 'behind the scenes', as it were, and how Christ is marching forth his ultimate purpose for human history and the final judgement of the wicked. And if 'Saints' can't take comfort in that, then for goodness sakes, what can we take comfort in??

But we Christians do have the Lord's promises of protection thru it all; PROVIDED we stand firm in our faith and trust Him to keep us safe. Those who do, will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during the 1260 days of the Great Trib. Revelation 12:14

But that's not encouraging in any way?

 

[Timtofly]

"The context is for today only?" I'm sorry, but that is simply inaccurate. The idea that Jesus had John write down several letters for Churches that existed at the time, then followed those with a book that gave a great deal of encouragement to 'saints' (people belonging to Christ) struggling under persecution...as they were in those days under Roman persecution...is just nonsensical. Revelation must be read with the understanding that it is relevant to the audience it was written to, and to every Christian afterwards struggling with persecution. Is it particularly relevant for those in the last of the last days? I'm sure it is, but placing it's context strictly for today is a huge theological mistake.
And, once again, you seem to completely miss the point I was trying to make: I'm NOT trying to use different titles for those in Christ, not ones that the bible doesn't already clearly use. Its those people who point to these clearly used titles in scripture and try and put them in different boxes without any kind of scriptural backing for those categories that I object to.
For example: They say that the "Church" has to be raptured out of the world before the Tribulation, because you can't find the word "Church" in Revelation...or after Chapter 4 anyway. The problem with that logic is, you also can't find the word "Church" in may of the other NT books either. Does that mean the Church doesn't exist on the earth in them as well? Then they say that since the 'Church' is gone in Revelation, when you see the word "Saint", it must mean people who come to faith in Christ AFTER the Church is gone: hence, 'tribulation saint'. The problem, again, is that the term "Saint" is used all throughout the NT. Does that then mean that these 'saints' are people apart from the Church?
The answer is, of course not! They're picking and choose and categorizing just to fit a doctrine they already want to believe: the Rapture of the Church BEFORE the bad stuff. But the simple fact is, there are NO verses supporting the sectioning off of different categories of 'church' and 'Saint'. Therefore there is NO logical or rational reason to suppose they are any different at all. The 'Saints' we see in Revelation, are just members of the body of Christ: people of the Church.

Revelation is about the only book for this generation. It would not just magically appear in all Bibles at the appropriate time. It was placed in the canon when John placed all his other writings. That was in the first century.

 

[Naomi25]

Sorry, but God (including Lord Jesus), has ordained those kingdoms to Satan for THIS world, and that is not going to change until our Lord Jesus returns at the 2nd coming. Does God's Word show this as fact? YES! Right here for one example...

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

So. What you are saying is that a verse from Revelation...a book that is written in an apocolyptic genre, which uses symbolic and poetic language to describe truths, must be taken in a strictly literal context and cancel out all the other verses you have yet to comment on. You know, the ones that tell us the Kingdom is now, and NOT of this world? Yes. I'm sure that is a sound exegetical notion.
How about this: instead of continually pointing to Rev 11, which sure, should come into the conversation, but shouldn't be the starting point for understanding the idea, how about you address those other scriptures and tell me what you think they could possibly mean? Because you still haven't answered, or attempted to answer any of these questions, which I think should be legitimately answered, don't you?

Why does the bible clearly speak of Christ reigning over a kingdom right now?
Why is this Kingdom spoken of as a Kingdom not of this earth and not one we can see, but still 'in the midst' of us (present)?
Why does the bible speak of this Kingdom being finished and 'handed over to the Father' AT Christ's return?
Where are the verses showing a future time when immortal people and mortal people will dwell together under Christ's reign?
Where are the verses describing a specific 'age' that allows things to be almost perfect, but sin will still persist, even though Christ will be back?
Where are the verses that tell us ANYONE will make it through Christ's return without being judged and therefore moved into their 'eternal' thereafter...eternal judgement or eternal righteousness?

If you can address all these issues sensibly and rationally explain how a kingdom can be now AND only arrive once Jesus does, then I'll agree you idea has some biblical balance.

Moreover, we are told this for who is going to be in control over ALL nations, and over ALL peoples, for the end, prior to our Lord Jesus' return...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

How is it that you can quote numerous verses from Revelation and yet miss a continuous and overarching theme running through the book?
Nothing happens in Revelation without God's express approval. Even by the demonic forces as they march across the face of the earth. That's the POINT of Revelation. To show that God is control of everything, and even though evil writhes and vomits its filth, it is all acting, ultimately, towards the grand fulfillment of God's plan.
Satan has not 'wrested' sovereignty of planet earth from God. He rules here only because God allows it...for a time. And that means, I'm afraid, that God is in control. And it especially means that from the moment Christ died on the cross and then rose again, Satan knew what he had here was only a stewardship. Don't you think that burned a little, after he attempted to offer it all to Christ and was refused? Now it's not his anyway. And he sees the lake of fire growing ever closer...and there's nothing he can do.

That isn't some event of the past. It's still in our near future. That shows you are fighting against God by NOT studying and understanding what He told us in His Word!

Men's doctrines will surely... mislead you IF you allow it. And a good way to be misled today is to trust what is taught in the pulpits without checking if out for yourself in God's Holy Writ. Words of sweetness and love have always been one of the downfalls of God's people, their listening to soothsayers instead of Him in His written Word of Truth.

The problem with placing Christ's kingdom and Christ's rule into the future and ONLY the future, is that you de-tooth the cross.
What, may I ask, was the point of Jesus coming at "the fullness of time" to die for the sins of many, if nothing was going to matter until that last moment anyway?
Truly. If the OT saints were saved by forward faith that God would send a Messiah, then the rest of humanity could have continued on in similar vein, right up until the moment of Christ breaking through the ceiling of reality and bringing the Kingdom with him.
That's not what scripture tells us though, is it? That's not what the plan was. The cross was placed where it was so as to make a new covenant. To bring in ALL peoples into the Kingdom of God, which started small, like a mustard seed, but has grown so large. It will, as Rev 11:15 says, reach a point where Christ DOES return, and bring the glory of eternity to earth, where the Kingdom will wipe away all tears, death and sin and be everlasting.
But the bible is most clear...it started with the cross. And placing it ONLY at his return, is ripping several passages out of your bible.
Please address those passages.

 

[Naomi25]

Then you are disagreeing with Lord Jesus, because He meant what He said there. His kingdom is NOT of this world (meaning this present world). And I have shown already enough Scripture that proves... that is exactly what He meant!

Does he SAY this "PRESENT" world? Or is that you putting words in his mouth in an attempt to make your own point?
Please. Deal with all the passages that speak of the Kingdom being a current reality...of Christ reigning now. You can quote all the other verses you like, but you still have to do SOMETHING with these verses...you cannot just ignore them.

 

[Naomi25]

Revelation is about the only book for this generation. It would not just magically appear in all Bibles at the appropriate time. It was placed in the canon when John placed all his other writings. That was in the first century.

Sure. Okay. That can be yours and John's little secret.

 

[Keraz]

The book of Revelation does, most certainly, describe terrors and final Judgement...but for non-believers...thus the hope and encouragement for the Saints.

I absolutely agree!
The trouble is that so few of the faithful believers are aware of Gods Plans for their future.
So many Christians have a wrong belief of what will happen, or they simply don't care, both of which are a serious abrogation of our responsibility to study and understand the Bible, esp the Prophetic Word in todays situation.

 

[Naomi25]

I absolutely agree!
The trouble is that so few of the faithful believers are aware of Gods Plans for their future.
So many Christians have a wrong belief of what will happen, or they simply don't care, both of which are a serious abrogation of our responsibility to study and understand the Bible, esp the Prophetic Word in todays situation.

It's true, many Christians don't give Prophecy or eschatology a thought, and I agree that that's a serious gap in how they should see and understand God's promises to his people. I think another problem lies in the contention of the topic and how many different views there are regarding what and how it's all supposed to go. I think even when we have a solid view, we must, at some point, find ourselves confronted by the fact that at times the 'other camp' will have some very good points that, if not make ourselves doubt our view, then at least should make us really dig into the study to confirm it.
Revelation is often labelled a really hard or controversial book, and I suppose it is, but one reason I really like it is, you can really just take a step back from the micro things playing out, and look at the macro's of it. The over-arching themes of Christ triumphing, of God's ultimate judgement over the wicked and the people of God being gathered to their final place; with him. In other words: it all turns out in the end! That ought to be something every Christian can get behind and cry 'amen and maranatha!' to!

 

[Timtofly]

Sure. Okay. That can be yours and John's little secret.

Thank you. I trust things will work out for your good, by a Sovereign God who is about ready to reap the final harvest.

 

[Keraz]

It's true, many Christians don't give Prophecy or eschatology a thought,

Prophecy is for Believers: 1 Corinthians 14:22b
The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10 Some reasons for this are:

1/ Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not:

1 John 4:4-6 Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.

Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23

2/ Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: Ezekiel 14:3-5

The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35. This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isaiah 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.

2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.

Jeremiah 23:16-17 The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.

Isaiah 29:9-12 The Lord says: I will place My spirit of misunderstanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16 [But not totally impossible, as a few have overcome their false beliefs, Daniel 12:10]

3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation:
To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times.

2 Peter 1:19 We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.

4/ Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies:
Ezekiel 33:31-33 My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.

Isaiah 48:3-6 Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.
Hosea 9:7 The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.
Revelation 22:7b…Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.

The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is the prime example of a false teaching that has been widely believed.
People just need to properly search the scriptures and see whether or not that theory is scriptural. When it cannot be found anywhere in the Bible, then to not renounce it, is a serious matter and when you stand before God, Revelation 20:11-15, He may ask why you didn't.

 

[Davy]

So. What you are saying is that a verse from Revelation...a book that is written in an apocolyptic genre, which uses symbolic and poetic language to describe truths, must be taken in a strictly literal context and cancel out all the other verses you have yet to comment on. You know, the ones that tell us the Kingdom is now, and NOT of this world? Yes. I'm sure that is a sound exegetical notion.

That statement makes about as much sense as a three day drunk who has just learned some English composition. It has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical understanding. Christ's Book of Revelation is not just some poetic novel. It is The Word of God, and a Christian should treat it that way, and not like some intellectual treatise the way you described it. Maybe you thought by saying that you'd appear smart or something, but it actually had just the opposite effect by showing you aren't equipped enough in understanding of God's Word to even be discussing it.

 

[Naomi25]

That statement makes about as much sense as a three day drunk who has just learned some English composition. It has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical understanding. Christ's Book of Revelation is not just some poetic novel. It is The Word of God, and a Christian should treat it that way, and not like some intellectual treatise the way you described it. Maybe you thought by saying that you'd appear smart or something, but it actually had just the opposite effect by showing you aren't equipped enough in understanding of God's Word to even be discussing it.

Oh, cripes.
You really don't get it, do you?
"Poetry" has nothing to do with something being fictional or not. It just describes the style in which something may have been written.
For example, should a poet write a love sonnet to his wife, or significant other, do you suppose its all made up? Of course not. He's using poetry as the style to express his VERY REAL love of her.
The same is true when we come to Revelation. Do you suppose that Christ is either a Lion or a Lamb? Of course not, not even the most strict 'literalist' would say so. Instead we see and accept that the author uses metaphor and...yes...poetic language to describe TRUTHS...Christ is both the lion of the tribe of Judah AND the lamb that was slain for the sins of the world. The images of both lion and lamb...slain lamb, tell us and show us SO much, they bring with them a visceral nature to the vision.
And just so you know: 'novels' are not the same as 'poetry'...different genres: a novel is usually written in fictitious prose, without metrical structure, while poetry expresses feelings and ideas within a distinctive metrical style and rhythm.

Thus ends you English lesson from the 3 day drunk.

 

[Davy]

Oh, cripes.
You really don't get it, do you?
"Poetry" has nothing to do with something being fictional or not. It just describes the style in which something may have been written.
For example, should a poet write a love sonnet to his wife, or significant other, do you suppose its all made up? Of course not. He's using poetry as the style to express his VERY REAL love of her.

God's Word is not written poetry. What you confuse as poetry is actually God using symbols and expressions to make understanding His Message more simple. All languages do that. Biblical languages are no exception. That still doesn't make it poetry. A reference to God's Word as poetry is vanity, because claiming that is an attempt to place His Word into a certain category of men's learning. It is to debase God's Word, which is way above... man's learning. Interpreting it as poetry is often how atheists see God's written Word, using that label as an excuse not to treat it literally, but instead as just some beautiful groups of words put together in a poetic fashion.

With Christ's Book of Revelation, it is written much in the same style as the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. Because there are so many Christian brethren that do not study the Old Testament Books, that is why they don't understand why the writing style of Revelation is so different than the rest of the New Testament Books. Those ought to 'get out' more, i.e., break open their Old Testament and get to work studying the prophets too, like Apostle Peter commanded us.

 

[Naomi25]

God's Word is not written poetry. What you confuse as poetry is actually God using symbols and expressions to make understanding His Message more simple. All languages do that. Biblical languages are no exception. That still doesn't make it poetry. A reference to God's Word as poetry is vanity, because claiming that is an attempt to place His Word into a certain category of men's learning. It is to debase God's Word, which is way above... man's learning. Interpreting it as poetry is often how atheists see God's written Word, using that label as an excuse not to treat it literally, but instead as just some beautiful groups of words put together in a poetic fashion.

If you will note, I didn't say Revelation, or any scripture, was poetry...I said it used poetic language. Because you don't seem to believe me, here are some external examples of what I am referring to:
"Poetic language, for example, refers to a more artistic form of ordinary language. While the goal of using ordinary language is simply to communicate a message, the goal of using poetic language is to convey a deeper meaning, feeling or image to one's audience."

Examples of poetic devices:

• Imagery.
• Metaphor.

Hmmm. "Imagery and metaphor". What, do you suppose, could those be? What was it you said above? "God using symbols and expressions to make understanding His Message more simple".
Tomato/tomato.

With Christ's Book of Revelation, it is written much in the same style as the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. Because there are so many Christian brethren that do not study the Old Testament Books, that is why they don't understand why the writing style of Revelation is so different than the rest of the New Testament Books. Those ought to 'get out' more, i.e., break open their Old Testament and get to work studying the prophets too, like Apostle Peter commanded us.

You know what would also help? A basic understanding of language and genre.

 

[farouk]

It's true, many Christians don't give Prophecy or eschatology a thought...

John 14: "I will come again..."

 

[Davy]

If you will note, I didn't say Revelation, or any scripture, was poetry...I said it used poetic language. Because you don't seem to believe me, here are some external examples of what I am referring to:
"Poetic language, for example, refers to a more artistic form of ordinary language. While the goal of using ordinary language is simply to communicate a message, the goal of using poetic language is to convey a deeper meaning, feeling or image to one's audience."

Examples of poetic devices:

• Imagery.
• Metaphor.

Hmmm. "Imagery and metaphor". What, do you suppose, could those be? What was it you said above? "God using symbols and expressions to make understanding His Message more simple".
Tomato/tomato.

You know what would also help? A basic understanding of language and genre.

What would help you, is learning a basic usage in ALL languages, because it is not about poetic style, it is about symbolism, expressions, analogy, something that ALL languages use. So before you lecture me on your collegiate poetry class, you need to understand how God created languages and how they are used even in normal everyday speech, even with the unlearned classes of peoples that don't even know what poetry is.

 

[Naomi25]

What would help you, is learning a basic usage in ALL languages, because it is not about poetic style, it is about symbolism, expressions, analogy, something that ALL languages use. So before you lecture me on your collegiate poetry class, you need to understand how God created languages and how they are used even in normal everyday speech, even with the unlearned classes of peoples that don't even know what poetry is.

I didn't go to college. I just read.
And I find it somewhat funny that you're basically fighting against me over a particular word that you dislike, even though the meaning comes back to what you are directly arguing for. The point....you've already conceded the point, you just don't like the term I used. And trying to 'one up me' by telling me to 'learn how God uses language' is both hilarious and petty.
I'm done with this conversation now, it's not benefiting anyone. Bye.

 

[Davy]

I didn't go to college. I just read.
And I find it somewhat funny that you're basically fighting against me over a particular word that you dislike, even though the meaning comes back to what you are directly arguing for. The point....you've already conceded the point, you just don't like the term I used. And trying to 'one up me' by telling me to 'learn how God uses language' is both hilarious and petty.
I'm done with this conversation now, it's not benefiting anyone. Bye.

I don't agree with Bible scholars who have turned to a literary criticism instead of keeping to a traditional scholar approach of historical criticism. When you apply the idea of poetry to God's Word you are indirectly placing it (even if unknowingly) in the realm of literary criticism, which means relying on man's literature to classify its meaning, which always with man's literature supports secularism in eras and movements of literature (like the Classical or Romantic periods for example). Human secularism is NOT the key to understanding God's written Word, which means nor are literary periods that include secular poets, or even the study of poetry as a reference for understanding The Bible.

There is a divine 'structure' in God's written Word not found in any known literature of man. The evidence of this structure is with the alternation and introversion of subjects within a Book or Chapter. They are Holy Spirit markings, and is why there are often repeats of the same phrase or verse within a Chapter. Men have tried to copy this, but it occurs divinely in God's Word, which is the Original.