Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Naomi25]

No. The addition and subtraction of the given time periods of the Patriarchs and Kings, has nothing to do with the Jewish calendar.
Yes, the next 1000 years will be the Millennium reign of King Jesus.

Note; the incredible exact timing of the first 2000 years, as Abraham goes to live in the holy Land.
Then the next exact 2000 years sees the commencement of Jesus Ministry.
The next 2000 years will see Jesus Return and then the last 1000 years is His reward. Psalms 110

well, perhaps it’s merely coincidence that the Jewish calendar/expectation lines up in a remarkably similar manner.
May I ask a question? If, in truth, human history only goes back to about 3970.5BC years, how do you explain some of the oldest cuneiform and hieroglyphics texts being 3400BC (Mesopotamia- Kish tablet, and Egyptian- Narmer palette) and then actual written records from 2600BC...and if we consider that the flood came 1656 years after Adam, then the flood essentially should have swept away these increasingly linguistic civilisations, only to have the real-emerge in the same geographic places afterwards but not mention the event at all. How does this all fit together? Thanks.

 

[Davy]

well, perhaps it’s merely coincidence that the Jewish calendar/expectation lines up in a remarkably similar manner.
May I ask a question? If, in truth, human history only goes back to about 3970.5BC years, how do you explain some of the oldest cuneiform and hieroglyphics texts being 3400BC (Mesopotamia- Kish tablet, and Egyptian- Narmer palette) and then actual written records from 2600BC...and if we consider that the flood came 1656 years after Adam, then the flood essentially should have swept away these increasingly linguistic civilisations, only to have the real-emerge in the same geographic places afterwards but not mention the event at all. How does this all fit together? Thanks.

God's creation is much older than 6,000 years. That 6,000 year-old theory originated with bishop James Ussher's 17th century work, Annals of the World. He claimed God's creation began around the year 4004 B.C. He used that date by going backwards from the time of Christ with all the Old Testament begats. The time of God forming the man Adam in His Garden was 4004 B.C. The British 19th century scholar E.W. Bullinger also came to that same 4004 B.C. date.

Ussher couldn't go back any farther for man using The Bible, because it begins with the man Adam. However, with Cain taking a wife from the "land of Nod", that suggests there were other peoples already. When Darwinists evolution theory began, certain Christian branches then began to preach the 6,000 year theory more so, thinking that an old earth somehow disagrees with God's Word. In reality, God's Word reveals the age of this earth is very ancient, and once involved an earth created perfect, and a time when Satan was perfect in his ways following God.

 

[Timtofly]

God's creation is much older than 6,000 years. That 6,000 year-old theory originated with bishop James Ussher's 17th century work, Annals of the World. He claimed God's creation began around the year 4004 B.C. He used that date by going backwards from the time of Christ with all the Old Testament begats. The time of God forming the man Adam in His Garden was 4004 B.C. The British 19th century scholar E.W. Bullinger also came to that same 4004 B.C. date.

Ussher couldn't go back any farther for man using The Bible, because it begins with the man Adam. However, with Cain taking a wife from the "land of Nod", that suggests there were other peoples already. When Darwinists evolution theory began, certain Christian branches then began to preach the 6,000 year theory more so, thinking that an old earth somehow disagrees with God's Word. In reality, God's Word reveals the age of this earth is very ancient, and once involved an earth created perfect, and a time when Satan was perfect in his ways following God.

Adam was created 7000 years ago, along with all the sons of God both male and female. The Sabbath day, was a Lord's Day. While God rested from creation, the earth went on for 1000 years. Perfect years without death or decay. Then God planted the Garden and placed Adam in the Garden. 30 years later, Adam disobeyed God. That is when in 3970 BC, sin, death, and decay became a reality.

The Garden was planted 4000 years from the 0 year mark. Christ died on the cross, 4000 years from the day Adam disobeyed God. The earth is only 1000 years older than human recorded history. Today we fail to grasp what 1000 years of perfection could entail. For one point, without any decay, how could any form of dating work today at all. There were no planted fossils. Any fossils being placed in the earth happened in the 1500 years between the fall and the Flood. But there were perfect human beings and even giants building and destroying for 1500 years. We have only seen such endeavors for perhaps 100 years.

These sons of God had knowledge we can only dream of. They also had way more time than just 100 years. Not to mention they had an additional 1000 years of building before they had 1500 years of being able to destroy anything. They had 2500 years to do as they pleased. Satan was given the last 2500 years, and look how long it took him to convince humanity to do anything. God kept Satan in place, but God let the sons of God do as they pleased, except the first 1000 years, there was no death or decay.

Some seem to think Satan is all about life and the advancement of greatness. Most of his acts seem to be wars and endless pain and suffering. Yes we manage to use some technology in a beneficial way, but at what cost?

 

[Keraz]

well, perhaps it’s merely coincidence that the Jewish calendar/expectation lines up in a remarkably similar manner.
May I ask a question? If, in truth, human history only goes back to about 3970.5BC years, how do you explain some of the oldest cuneiform and hieroglyphics texts being 3400BC (Mesopotamia- Kish tablet, and Egyptian- Narmer palette) and then actual written records from 2600BC...and if we consider that the flood came 1656 years after Adam, then the flood essentially should have swept away these increasingly linguistic civilisations, only to have the real-emerge in the same geographic places afterwards but not mention the event at all. How does this all fit together? Thanks.

Coincidence? No; God-incidence!

Believe the 'experts' dating do you? Radio-Carbon dating and all their fancy guesswork mean nothing.
But Davy is right, there may have been humans extant before Adam. What happened to him and to all humans from Adam, was the Spirit of God was given, with the ability to know right from wrong and the eventually become the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

I realize that the timeline I posted is very scary, as it means we are right now on the edge of earth shattering events.
The thing to do, is to be ready for them, to be prepared physically and Spiritually and to stand firm in our faith thru it all.

 

[Naomi25]

God's creation is much older than 6,000 years. That 6,000 year-old theory originated with bishop James Ussher's 17th century work, Annals of the World. He claimed God's creation began around the year 4004 B.C. He used that date by going backwards from the time of Christ with all the Old Testament begats. The time of God forming the man Adam in His Garden was 4004 B.C. The British 19th century scholar E.W. Bullinger also came to that same 4004 B.C. date.

Ussher couldn't go back any farther for man using The Bible, because it begins with the man Adam. However, with Cain taking a wife from the "land of Nod", that suggests there were other peoples already. When Darwinists evolution theory began, certain Christian branches then began to preach the 6,000 year theory more so, thinking that an old earth somehow disagrees with God's Word. In reality, God's Word reveals the age of this earth is very ancient, and once involved an earth created perfect, and a time when Satan was perfect in his ways following God.

Please note that I'm not arguing for a 6000yr earth, or even believing in one....only discussing with Keraz HIS belief in it. But thanks for this info...interesting!

 

[Naomi25]

Coincidence? No; God-incidence!

Believe the 'experts' dating do you? Radio-Carbon dating and all their fancy guesswork mean nothing.
But Davy is right, there may have been humans extant before Adam. What happened to him and to all humans from Adam, was the Spirit of God was given, with the ability to know right from wrong and the eventually become the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

I realize that the timeline I posted is very scary, as it means we are right now on the edge of earth shattering events.
The thing to do, is to be ready for them, to be prepared physically and Spiritually and to stand firm in our faith thru it all.

I don't know that it's necessarily an 'either/or' sort of thing. God upholds the laws upon which science is built. Therefore I don't think science cancels out scripture or vice versa.
And yes, I do recognize that Adam/Eve may not have been the first/only humans created. I haven't given the different creation theories much thought, but I'm not dismissive of them.
Your timeline is not scary. At least, I don't find it so. I'm extremely eager for the Lord's return!

 

[farouk]

Except most bibles will refer Rev 15:2 right back to Rev 12:11, and its easy to see why:

And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. -Revelation 15:2

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. -Revelation 12:11

We are not told anywhere in Revelation that angels 'conquer' the beast and his number or image. Instead we are told, rather directly, that the Saints are the ones who conquer him, his image and his mark by the blood of the Lamb, their testimony, and even their death.
Logically, that tells us that those being spoken of in Rev 15 must be Saints.

Hi @Naomi25 Could they be tribulation saints?

 

[farouk]

I'm extremely eager for the Lord's return!

@Naomi25 "Even so: come, Lord Jesus". (Revelation 22).

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25 Could they be tribulation saints?

Indeed they are: but what are "tribulation saints"? Revelation does not specify that the term "saint" is different to the term "saint" used anywhere else in the NT, which is just a reference to 'Christian'. NT teaching tells all Christians that they must expect tribulation in this world (John 16:33). And indeed, passages that speak of Christs coming lists it as "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29).
So without Revelation giving any sort of clear delineation between the 'Church' and 'Tribulation Saints', we must conclude that they are people belonging to the body of Christ, just as we are.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

There is absolutely no connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture. I wonder if it is some kind of martyr complex driving Christians to this nonsensical teaching. Just remember that you will simply be beheaded.

Rapture took place in 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed and the end of the age of law.

We go to be with our Lord when we pass away.

 

[Timtofly]

Rapture took place in 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed and the end of the age of law.

We go to be with our Lord when we pass away.

If the church left in 70 AD, we are not the church today. We are just a bunch of educated fools.

There was no rapture in history. It is still a future event. Yes, when we die, we do go to Paradise immediately. There will not be a bodily resurrection of the church. Those who die in Christ, their souls are present with Christ at the moment of death. There is nothing on earth to resurrect. Flesh and blood do not enter Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

Indeed they are: but what are "tribulation saints"? Revelation does not specify that the term "saint" is different to the term "saint" used anywhere else in the NT, which is just a reference to 'Christian'. NT teaching tells all Christians that they must expect tribulation in this world (John 16:33). And indeed, passages that speak of Christs coming lists it as "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29).
So without Revelation giving any sort of clear delineation between the 'Church' and 'Tribulation Saints', we must conclude that they are people belonging to the body of Christ, just as we are.

Not really. During Jesus' first earthly ministry we see a couple of people who die, not OT saints, and not NT saints. John the Baptist was beheaded. We are not told where he went. Lazarus died and was resurrected. The rich man died, and remained in sheol. The book of Revelation indicates this time is just not tribulation. It is the harvest that Jesus Christ taught would happen the next time He came. The resurrection in chapter 20, indicates the gathering of the sheep and wheat, is by death. Those who are beheaded actually die. The people on earth at this time will all die. They do not go to heaven or sheol. The goats and tares are resurrected into damnation, that is Death. At the GWT, Death is emptied directly into the lake of fire. Those humans do not even stand at the GWT. The sheep and wheat are resurrected, and reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. They never go to Paradise. The church went to Paradise in the 6th seal. That is the difference between Trumpet and Thunders saints, and the church. The church is sealed in Christ. Those beheaded, and the sheep and wheat are physically resurrected to live on earth for 1000 years, and be on earth in the next reality, the new heavens and earth. The church comes down in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

Hi @Naomi25 Could they be tribulation saints?

No, the Rev.15:2-4 description of saints is a future-forward view AFTER Christ has returned and reigns over all nations. That is why they are singing the "song of Moses" (Deut.32).


There is a similar passage in Revelation 14 that goes along with that future timing...

Rev 14:1-5
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
KJV

That "Sion" is a Greek rendering of Zion, pointing to Jerusalem after Christ's coming. That is when the overcomers will be singing that song.

 

[Davy]

Rapture took place in 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed and the end of the age of law.

We go to be with our Lord when we pass away.

In reality, the 1 Thess.4 event of the Church still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus has not happened yet. It won't happen until the end of the tribulation on the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus will return to this earth, literally, bringing the asleep saints with Him (Zechariah 14).

 

[Davy]

I don't disagree that immortality will come at the opening of the book of life...or that it occurs after the Millennium.

Putting on immortality for those in Christ Jesus actually does occur when He returns. That is specifically why those of the 1st resurrection are never subject to the "second death".

In 1 Cor.15, Apostle Paul used 4 separate Greek words in 1 Corinthians 15:53. It involves 2 separate changes in our condition, not just one.

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

1. our flesh body must put on incorruption - that's the first required change. The body of incorruption Paul taught is the "spiritual body". The body of flesh he taught is the "natural body". The wicked dead will also have this body of incorruption, because that is the type body of the resurrection. But it is still not immortal IF... still subject to the "second death".

2. our "this mortal" (soul) must put on immortality - the "spiritual body" is our outward image, what Paul called the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15:49. It is not our personality or id. Our soul is our person, and it must be made immortal through Faith on Christ Jesus. This happens for all those in Christ Jesus, and is also why they can never be subject to the "second death".

In reality per God's Word, we ALL... are going to be in the "spiritual body" on earth beginning at Christ's 2nd coming.

In 2 Cor.5 Paul showed that already we have that "spiritual body" inside our flesh. When Jesus comes, everyone's flesh is going to be cast off, revealing their spiritual body. That is how we ALL... will appear then. For those who have died, they have already cast off their flesh body with their spiritual body image being how they manifest. So even though the "resurrection of damnation" will also manifest with their heavenly image in that future time when Jesus returns, their mortal souls will still be subject to the "second death" all throughout Christ's 1,000 years reign.

Since the idea of the "first resurrection" includes the ordinal number one, that suggests there will be a 2nd resurrection. The 2nd one isn't about the "resurrection of damnation" though, because the "resurrection of damnation" happens on the day of the Jesus' 2nd coming per John 5:28-29. The 2nd inferred resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years is about another resurrection unto eternal life through Christ like the first one. When the unsaved are judged at the end of the 1,000 years, whoever's name is found in the book of life will be in the 2nd resurrection of life unto Christ.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

In reality, the 1 Thess.4 event of the Church still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus has not happened yet. It won't happen until the end of the tribulation on the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus will return to this earth, literally, bringing the asleep saints with Him (Zechariah 14).

We are told:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
When I leave this body, I will go directly to heaven to be with my Lord. Believest thou this?

 

[Rocky Wiley]

In reality, the 1 Thess.4 event of the Church still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus has not happened yet. It won't happen until the end of the tribulation on the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus will return to this earth, literally, bringing the asleep saints with Him (Zechariah 14).

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Tares are burned and: Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

 

[Davy]

We are told:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
When I leave this body, I will go directly to heaven to be with my Lord. Believest thou this?

That's true, that is... what happens, when we DIE that is.

The harpazo ("caught up") event in 1 Thess.4 isn't about death though. Because you don't seem to understand this difference tells me you haven't really studied that chapter very well. That Scripture is plain enough, particularly starting at 1 Thess.4:13. The asleep saints that have already died Jesus will bring with Him when He returns. But those saints on earth still alive, they are changed and then caught up to Him, and both groups go with Him to Jerusalem, on earth, per Zech.14.

Therefore, the "caught up" (or rapture) event is written, but it's the TIMING where the Pre-tribulationalists are in error. They say it will occur prior to the tribulation. Jesus showed it will occur after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

 

[Davy]

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Tares are burned and: Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

Well, our Lord Jesus in The Gospel Books did not always give every detail of the order of events at the end, which we know this because of His giving us His Book of Revelation. In Rev.20, John was shown the nations of unsaved will still exist during Christ's 1,000 years reign, even as Zechariah 14 does show also. And Rev.3:9 reveals the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" will be made to come worship at the feet of Christ's elect, which has never happened yet. It don't get any worse group than that "synagogue of Satan", for those represent Satan's workers on earth. That shows they will still exist after Christ's return, and will be made to bow to Him. Those are the 'tares'. They are not destroyed until after... the 1,000 years, because the "lake of fire" destruction isn't until the end of the 1,000 years. The 7,000 of Rev.11 that are immediately destroyed at Christ's coming represents a different group, not the 'tares'.

 

[Timtofly]

That's true, that is... what happens, when we DIE that is.

The harpazo ("caught up") event in 1 Thess.4 isn't about death though. Because you don't seem to understand this difference tells me you haven't really studied that chapter very well. That Scripture is plain enough, particularly starting at 1 Thess.4:13. The asleep saints that have already died Jesus will bring with Him when He returns. But those saints on earth still alive, they are changed and then caught up to Him, and both groups go with Him to Jerusalem, on earth, per Zech.14.

Therefore, the "caught up" (or rapture) event is written, but it's the TIMING where the Pre-tribulationalists are in error. They say it will occur prior to the tribulation. Jesus showed it will occur after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

Zechariah 14 has nothing to do with the church at all. It is about the tribulation and the next 1000 years, but has nothing to do with the church at all. If the harvest happens as Jesus taught in the Gospels, there will be no human alive. The church is sealed, it is tribulation saints who endure, but they themselves will have to be beheaded. All will be dead. Dead people are resurrected not raptured. If any of the church is alive at the 6th seal, they will be raptured. But not into the earth. The church is found in the temple of God. This temple is next to God on the throne. It is not in heaven, nor on earth.