Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The respect side of love....That was directed more at Giuliano than at you, Grailhunter. I think you could teach him a few things about being a gentleman.
Halloween Street Preaching
- Thread starter 07-07-07
- Start date
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You said we should be rude to others to show how we cared. If it okay for a street preacher to yell things at people to "correct" them but not okay for me to "rebuke" you?That was directed more at Giuliano than at you, Grailhunter. I think you could teach him a few things about being a gentleman.
You also seemed to indicate you like bullies.
The word often translated as "grace" in the KJV definitely is connected to love since it can also mean "kindness." Indeed the few times Jesus used the word, it got translated as "thanks."
What confounds me is how the word "grace" is isolated at times as if it was a concrete object instead of a quality connected with a person. So many Christians use "abstract nouns" that seemingly have no reference to anything else.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
You've misunderstood me--a common occurrence.
I didn't say what I thought about the street preacher's behavior in the video, so you are mistaken about my thinking it's okay. But our opinions on this and most other things are very different.
What I was saying about bullies is that even "nice people" can bully others at times. I've seen it on this forum.
You will have to make that decision, of course.
So should I call you "sinner" now? Is that your wish?
How many thousands or millions of years do you fancy you will spend in Heaven seeing yourself as a "sinner" and speaking of yourself and others as "sinners"? Will God be looking at you eternally remembering all your past sins and reminding you that you didn't deserve to have eternal life?
Ha, my Bible says God forgets sins when people repent. God doesn't see them as sinners when they stop being sinners. The past is dead. So why refer to it as if it were true?
Of course, I also "smile" at how the word "saved" is used since it's counting the chicks before they're hatched. I also would not say we will be saved by grace -- I might say we will be saved by the grace of God or by the grace of Jesus -- but it's not "grace" hanging out like a fog independent of God. Grace is not anyone's savior. God is. Indeed the "name" Jesus means "Yah will save."
That catchphrase is common place, I know; but it means nothing.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? When did I say this about sinners?
I'm in agreement with Paul--that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Grace is God's saving and sustaining power.
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I can clue you in when I can get harsh -- when I see innocent people being abused or bullied. That video annoyed because an adult was being nasty to children.
While you may not have explicitly stated your opinion, you gave a hint, didn't you? The video you posted also provided a hint. I disapprove of that tactic too. I've seen it used in churches. I grew up hearing that kind of condemnation hurled from the pulpit; and while some people may become Christians when that method of demeaning is used on them, they will struggle along.
Most people are basically good. That's a fact. Jesus could see the good in people. He wouldn't come to earth to suffer and die for trash. The problem on this earth is that good people are deceived by the Dark Side into believing they must fight evil with evil -- they must be evil to survive. Jesus showed us that isn't true. It would be better to let others kill us than to believe we must fight evil with evil. We are doubting the Love and Power of God if we believe that; we are giving the Dark Side power if we believe that. Satan's view is most people are basically bad, worthless -- and God made a mistake making us. I find the view then that most people are not basically good a satanic view.
Most people are basically good by afraid to be like the innocent children they started off as. The good news -- and it really is the Good News -- is that it is best to accept ourselves the way God made us as little children. God didn't make a mistake making us that way. It is what almost everyone truly craves because the simple truth is that almost everyone wants to love and to be loved -- and that is what God wants for us too.
There is no really good reason to fear any evil, not if we have confidence in God's perfect Love, Wisdom and Power. It is safe for us to become again as little children. There is no need to cave people in by reminding them of every sin they ever committed.
When one abstract noun just won't do! To be honest, I don't know what he means by that -- too many abstract nouns for me to handle.
Paul's writings appeal to many, I think, because they are so esoteric with so many abstract nouns. His readers can take what he writes to mean almost anything they want. I wish Paul had been more practical.
What kind of instruction did he give to people in person when he was with them? On one hand, the people at Corinth seemed to misunderstand him and began to "sin" outrageously; and on the other hand, the people in Galatia seemed to think they needed to obey all the laws of Moses. Both drew his ire.
So now what is it you think of yourself as, "a sinner saved by grace through faith"? I don't look at you as a "sinner." I think you make mistakes as we all do; but I don't reckon those as "sins" in the willful way. Indeed, I seldom even see "sinners" as "sinners." I try to see potential saints the way Jesus could. He could call out that "inner goodness" in other people like Zacchaeus or the woman at the well. Most people are basically good; and many have consciences that bother them -- and the fact that their consciences are working correctly tells us they do want to be good but don't know how. The person with a guilty conscience shouldn't be condemned or made to feel even worse. He needs to be told how to get rid of that burden.
There are some days when I'm in top form, I get a real thrill if I can get someone I don't even know to be kind to me or to smile at me. On the days I feel like a saint, I think, "Ah, they received me. They will have their reward for their kindness." Oh surely, I enjoy them being kind to me; but I think I enjoy it more thinking about how I hope they will be rewarded for it.
Matthew 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Do you think Jesus' motive in asking Zacchaeus was selfish? I don't think it was. I see Zacchaeus as a troubled person who wanted to be kind to others but somewhat fearful. Jesus tricked him in a way into doing a good deed, and it changed his life.
He used the same technique with the woman at the well, asking a drink of water from her as a favor! She was stunned, "You, a Jew, are asking me, a Samaritan, for a favor?" Can you see it? Can you see how Jesus was "imagining" her good side and drawing that out? Oh, that poor woman too with five husbands! I wonder if any of them ever treated her with respect?
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
You have just contradicted yourself. Do you believe that the street preacher in the video is basically a good person? I suppose you'll say yes, but your statements about him say otherwise.
Let's face it, Giuliano, we're all a bunch of hypocrites apart from Jesus Christ! Even you.
And you had a reaction to it, but not all people react as you do. Maybe you are very sensitive to that sort of thing. I would guess that most of the people in the video didn't give the preacher a second thought.
He wouldn't suffer unimaginable torture for good people, would He?? (Who said that people are trash??) But if people were good, there would have been no need for Jesus to die for us.
Wow! Just wow! All you have to do is read Genesis to see that you are wrong about this.
Genesis 6:5-6--When the Lord saw that man’s wickedness was widespread on the earth and that every scheme his mind thought of was nothing but evil all the time, the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
The devil always twists the truth.
Have you been reading psychology books? This is man's wisdom, not God's. It's foolishness to God. Yes, everyone wants to be loved! Of course! But this doesn't mean that people are good at heart--that people CAN love. And this is the problem. The world's concept of love and God's are two different things. Do you think that most people in this world lay their lives down for others on a regular basis? Do you think that most husbands do this for their wives? I don't think so. If they did, I don't think divorce would be so prevalent.
The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, even when it comes to abstract nouns, lol! I don't think the abstract is a problem for Him, and He can give us all the understanding we need.
I'll have to respond to the rest of what you said later. Time to get ready for work.
Have a blessed day, Giuliano!
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Halloween celebrators are reveling and on the road to eternal damnation.
revel
[ rev-uhl ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR revel ON THESAURUS.COM
verb (used without object), rev·eled, rev·el·ing or (especially British) rev·elled, rev·el·ling.
to take great pleasure or delight (usually followed by in): to revel in luxury.
to make merry; indulge in boisterous festivities.
noun
boisterous merrymaking or festivity; revelry.
Often revels. an occasion of merrymaking or noisy festivity with dancing, masking, etc.
Definition of revel | Dictionary.com
It's witchcraft, a work of the flesh listed in Galatians 5:19-21; God has not done away with His hatred of the acts of witches, wizards, psychics and so forth; it's all a road to eternal damnation. You've dismissed 2/3rds of the Bible by doing away with the OT, so how can you understand the NT?
Again, this song declares the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
So you managed to find a source that didn't include drinking. It did include dancing however. Do people celebrate Halloween by dancing?
Dressing up like a witch doesn't make someone a witch.
That passage from Deuteronomy does not really mention "witchcraft." King James I was very anti-witches; and it seems that translators used the word "witch" to please him. The word really means "whisperer." It might means someone who mutters curses quietly.
I'll be sure to obey that passage carefully when God leads me into the Land of Promise. I'll look around to see what abominations the people are committing to be sure I don't imitate them. Ha, how amusing that you try to apply that passage to Gentiles who have never been to the land of Israel and never will be.
Why are they singing and dancing with wiggling their hips in a sexually suggestive way? If Halloween is reveling, that is too.
I can't believe you posted a video by that group which was associated with the disgraced Ernest Angley and Grace Cathedral. ROFL, what a mess that guy was. He preached against homosexuality for years; but then it turns out this "godly" man was diddling men all along. I used to see him on TV. I always thought he was gay. It didn't surprise me when the stories came out. Now I look at the the people in that video, and they look sexually frustrated to me with their writhing hips. I find their writhing onstage disgusting. I would not want any of them in my house lest they bring along an unclean spirit. They look to me as if they may still be struggling with the lusts of the flesh with their suggestive wriggling around. I wouldn't know, but I do know I wouldn't behave like that onstage claiming to represent Jesus' message.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Yet you cite Deuteronomy to me? You preach that dressing up like a witch makes someone a witch, guilty under the law of Moses? You have to be kidding.
You do not see the problem then? The street preacher is pretending to be superior. He's still deluded in his way of thinking. He still needs to restored to the state of innocence.
You forget something here. Before Jesus' did what he did, you could lead a perfect life and still not make it into the kingdom. The curse of Adam was still around. If not perfect, you could repent of all your sins; but the curse of death was still on you. That was the tragedy. Most people are basically good; but in this fallen world, what was not enough since what others do affects us too. What Adam and Eve did affected mankind in a negative way; what Jesus did affects it in a positive way.
Your analysis doesn't go far enough. God's intervention at this point in time was made because if He did nothing, no one could ever have been saved. The world was becoming so grotesquely wicked, innocent children born in the world wouldn't stand a chance of ever being able to choose good over evil since the powers of darkness would have been so overwhelming. God's plan for us includes the Law of Free Will; and when evil becomes too powerful, that freedom is being subverted. We see that in Sodom where the "young men" were more evil than their parents. The adults were bad enough, not rearing their children properly; and the children grew up even more corrupt. It was the "young men" who instigated things and their parents then went along with the children. When a culture reaches that level of degradation, it needs to be wiped out. Two souls from Sodom were saved however.
God also told Abraham that the "iniquity" of the Amorites was not yet full. As long as a culture is not completely wicked, children born into it have the opportunity to choose for themselves between right and wrong. Thus it is God's Mercy to intervene. It may look as if God is punishing the wicked. and He is; but the true objective is the protection of the innocent. Jesus also spoke of this principle.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
No, my source there is what Jesus said.
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
We need to find the "image and likeness of God" given to us when He made us. I'm quite sure that is good. The way of the world you allude to is an illusion, is it not? It is like a spell cast over the world, deceiving men and women.
The abstract is irrelevant unless it can be related to reality. I can say two plus two equals four; but it is meaningless to me unless I can use it in real life. Some may applaud Paul for his abstruse writing; but he makes things too abstruse if you ask me. Could anyone "be converted and become as little children" by reading what Paul wrote? Then too, look around this forum and see the confusion people have over his writings. There are discussions about what faith is and what grace is. What is the freedom Paul wrote about? Then when people exercise more freedom than Paul likes, he chastises them. I find him confusing.
People can read Paul's writings and derive almost anything they want from them. They can justify almost any belief they want to hold. I consider it a tragedy when I see people pondering so much over Paul's writings while neglecting the words of Jesus which seem clearer to me.
I also agree with Peter, that it is possible for some people to derive dangerous doctrines if they rely too much on Paul while neglecting the words of Jesus.
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
Then these people aren't letting the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth, are they? Not everyone listens to the Holy Spirit. Some are too busy trying to figure out what Paul said using their own human reasoning. That's why we have 30,000+ (Grailhunter's number) denominations. But those who are seeking the truth will find it.
I think you're doing exactly what that verse is warning against--distorting the scriptures. Here it is from the Amplified Bible.
2 Peter 3:16 (AMPC)--Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their ownutter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.
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This makes me wonder if indeed everyone is meant when Jesus told his disciples the Spirit would guide them into all truth. When you see so many denominations, it suggests to me that having people think they're hearing from God isn't working that well.
Huh? I don't see much of a difference in the translations. What I do see is how Peter was right; and I don't think the "ignorant and unstable" should be told to ask the Spirit to guide them into all truth.
I think that the cliff analogy motivates believers to preach the gospel to those who are heading towards the proverbial cliff...if I can keep someone from walking off of a cliff apart from warning them about the danger, then I would love to take such a tactic...however, if you think of the analogy, I don't really see that there is any other tactic that will really work.
I suppose that I can keep someone from walking over a cliff by tempting them with honey in the opposite direction of the cliff...but then I have to keep feeding them honey or they will walk again towards the cliff, since they don't understand the danger.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell.
My pov may be colored by bias...or it may not be. I would suggest reading the passage for yourself and asking the Holy Spirit to show you the unbiased interpretation...something I do most of the time.
From your perspective, that would be a Mormon...
Now the police are slandering Kirk and Ray by arresting fake robbers and then arresting Kirk and Ray for preaching the gospel....fact of the matter is: Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort's character's are impeccable, and I don't believe it for a second.
Really? the Bible contradicts your pov:
Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Psa 58:3, The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Again, really?
Jhn 2:23, Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Jhn 2:24, But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Jhn 2:25, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Seems to me like Jesus didn't trust them because He knew what was in their hearts.
Glorifying witchcraft is leading others down a path wherein they might practice it. Jesus said that if you do that (i.e. cause one of these little ones to sin) it would be better for a millstone to be tied around your neck and you be thrown into the sea.
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Pointing to man's shortcomings does not mean God looks at people as basically worthless. I do not agree with Satan who sees men and women as worthless creatures and at God as making a mistake in creating them. If men are basically bad, you are accusing God Himself of making a mistake.
This applies only to a group of people who are born wicked. We ought not to condemn the innocent along with the guilty.
That does not say they were basically bad. I'd say it means Jesus knew their weaknesses and did not trust them.
You seem to think Jesus may have been crazy, wanting to die to save worthless bad people. That's so wrong. People are basically good but misled by the Dark Side. If you can get them back the way they were as children, they can be saved. God created us basically good. We need to realize that, accept it and embrace it. We need to become as little children. If people don't understand that, I have to wonder if they ever became as little children themselves -- are they really on the path of salvation?
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
That's right. Most people are born basically good. You seem to have a satanic view condemns mankind. This is not the first time I've noticed a streak of negativity in your posts. You appear to be laboring and struggling still. Why not find that "inner child" you used to be and embrace it? Then you will know why Jesus loved us even when we were sinners weighed down with our errors.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Who's glorifying witchcraft? Most children who dress up as witches are making fun of the whole idea. They don't even believe in them.
You seem to be quaking in your shoes at the mere idea of witches. Who gave you such a spirit of fear?
Your ideas are off the wall too. I've known a few people who practiced Wicca; and they didn't dress up in black pointy hats the way children do at Halloween.
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For one thing, our religion is not the Force here.
Secondly, scripture is clear on the subject of total depravity; that ever since Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, sin is inherent in every person who belongs to the human race (Jesus being the exception, since the sin DNA is passed down through the father and the Father of Jesus was God the Father).
The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
I knew that you would say what you did about the second verse I quoted; but in saying what you said you were ignoring the first verse.
Again, Jeremiah 17:9 says,
Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
And I am not saying by this that mankind is worthless to God. God demonstrated His love towards us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. What this means is that our soul has value to God even though it is completely inundated by sin. God likes to take the junkers and make something out of them: He is in the business of renovating junkers.
As a final point I would bring up the fact that Jesus said, I come not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
If you are not a sinner therefore, then you don't need Jesus. You're righteous. Jesus didn't come to call you.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
What would you do if we had a birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese for your grand-daughter and the Jehovah’s Wittiness came in with loud speakers and yelled out the kids, telling them that they were going to hell or demonic for celebrating a birthday party.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell.
lol Good catch....Still the point.....Merry Christmas to ya.
The fact that you can’t think of how to preach without using threats highlights the problem of this abusive fear-based cycle. Love is so foreign to it.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Morning Ladies and Gentlemen
Catch me up....
Are we still talking about attacking men, women, and children with the Gospel while they celebrating Halloween or have we found a coven of witches to preach to?
Catch me up....
Are we still talking about attacking men, women, and children with the Gospel while they celebrating Halloween or have we found a coven of witches to preach to?
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