Harmonizing most rapture views

[7angels]

Dear 7,

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. If you are His sheep you should be able to hear His voice which means you will receive revelation.

It is not favoritism but rather a gathering in of a mature harvest that would have taken place if man had not fallen into sin.

What we refer to as "a rapture" is just God moving people and angels around by His Spirit. This should be obvious if you can stand back a bit and look at this phenomenon as a whole.

This thing about having two or three scriptures to prove anything is fear based theology. Really, the only witness you need is the Holy Spirit. It is just that people are out of practice when it comes to hearing Him clearly.

I understood that the scroll was the lambs book of life because of revelation. If you study it out, though, you will find the revelation is true. Without the seals being removed by the Lamb which has been found worthy there could be no salvation for anyone except Jesus.

In conclusion, I think you are very sincere in what you wrote. All that you need is to learn to hear the voice of God clearly and trust Him above what your mind can figure out in the word. Once you do that then the Spirit of Truth will be able to show you where to dig for the scriptural gold you seek.

Blessings,

Justin

i am not here to prove one thing is right while another is wrong. but i want to understand where you are coming from.

i would like to know where scripturally you are standing upon to get this revelation concerning your view of rapture? without scriptural basis all you are saying is heresay. also this book of life you are referring to please show me where you are coming up with that view also. so far all you have said about it makes no sense.

God bless

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear S,

I believe that there will be a pre-trib rapture based upon the philidelphia church reference in Rev. I believe that there will be a mid trib raptrue of the 144,000. I believe that there will be a more genearl rapture based upon the Lord decending with a shout and the dead in Christ being raised first. This will happen after the 1000 years. The only position I do not believe in is those who say there is not rapture...that is arrogent and scripturally wrong.

Yes, God does speak to me as I hope He speaks to you. Having a personal conversation with our Father is our birthright and not a special thing only for a few. Our ability to hear our Father is based upon our heart openess to Him and our willingness to be obedient.

Dear 7,

Really bro, what else would it be. They did not have "books" back them but scrolls. Our names are written in the Lambs book of life. Until Christ came we were all sold under sin. The book of life is the scroll that our Father held until someone was found worthy to open the seven seals. The Lamb was found worthy and did open the scroll. Why did He need to open it? To read it. Without reading the scroll the names can not be called out and the dead cannot be raised. The calling of our names is the shout that is heard when Jesus decends. You know the scripture as I do. If you are really interested in knowing the truth prove it out.

Revelation is more powerful than study simply because it gives you God's perspective and allows you to start from solid ground. What I have given you is revelation and it is somewhere to start which will help you to understand what most of the book of Revelation is about.

It actualy makes a lot of sense but only from God's perspective. Just like my view of the rapture you have to recieve such things from God's Spirit or else you just cannot see straight. After you get the right perspective then you can study it out and prove all things. It helps to be Spirit filled with the evidence of speaking in other tougnes. I also helps to have experienced a bit of the Feast of Tabernacles and oneness with our Father too. If you lack these it is hard to see beyond basic salvation.

I suppose the question really is, do either one of you want to know the truth or are you just dug into your doctrinal fox holes for the durration. The pharisees that asked Jesus questions were not interested to hear the truth but rather just wanted to prove him to be a false person. Where is your heart in this? That will probrably make all the difference.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[7angels]

Dear 7,

Really bro, what else would it be. They did not have "books" back them but scrolls. Our names are written in the Lambs book of life. Until Christ came we were all sold under sin. The book of life is the scroll that our Father held until someone was found worthy to open the seven seals. The Lamb was found worthy and did open the scroll. Why did He need to open it? To read it. Without reading the scroll the names can not be called out and the dead cannot be raised. The calling of our names is the shout that is heard when Jesus decends. You know the scripture as I do. If you are really interested in knowing the truth prove it out.
WHAT YOU CLAIM ABOUT THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE is to my knowledge is unscriptural. if the scroll were just showing who was worthy to enter heaven then why could the scroll only be opened by Jesus and no one else? what made Jesus worthy to open the scroll over anyone else? unless that scroll was something other then the book of life. where does scripture tell us that Jesus calls out our names while He returns for his chosen. i ask you for scripture because i don't know any that supports your points.

Revelation is more powerful than study simply because it gives you God's perspective and allows you to start from solid ground. What I have given you is revelation and it is somewhere to start which will help you to understand what most of the book of Revelation is about.
you are right that revelation is more powerful than studying but you cannot give people revelation(rhema) but only logos(words). revelation you are referring to comes only from God and even if the person who recieves the revelation from God tells ANOTHER PERSON DOES NOT IN ANY WAY make what you say revelation to another person unless God in some way confirms it to them. so it is great if you get godly revelation but until God reveals it to me all you say is just words that sound good but that is it.

It actualy makes a lot of sense but only from God's perspective. Just like my view of the rapture you have to recieve such things from God's Spirit or else you just cannot see straight. After you get the right perspective then you can study it out and prove all things. It helps to be Spirit filled with the evidence of speaking in other tougnes. I also helps to have experienced a bit of the Feast of Tabernacles and oneness with our Father too. If you lack these it is hard to see beyond basic salvation.
don't get too full of yourself because pride comes before a fall. none of what you say is necessary to hear from God. it helps yes but it is not in any way manditory.

I suppose the question really is, do either one of you want to know the truth or are you just dug into your doctrinal fox holes for the durration. The pharisees that asked Jesus questions were not interested to hear the truth but rather just wanted to prove him to be a false person. Where is your heart in this? That will probrably make all the difference.
please don't assume things you know nothing about. whether we agree or disagree is the issue. i just want to know your stance and on what basis/scripture that supports your beliefs. let us not keep running around the issues here but lets meet them head on.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear 7,

I am trying to get you to see that you don't have to have two or three verses to support every conclusion you come too. What I have said about the scroll is true. It harmonizes beautifully with everything in the scripture yet you don't see to be able to see this because, basically, you fear making a mistake. The truth is that God has to reveal to us what He has put in the scripture and we do not have to prove it when we know His voice. Yes, once you study it out it will prove true but there comes a time when we know it is true simply because we know Him.

If you really wanted to know the truth you would have studied this out to pove it and see if it is true. All you have been doning is ranting and raving that I can't possibly know that the scroll is the Lamb's book of life rather than considering it. You are being willfully blind for no good reason. I am not trying to put you down to goad you to action. Peter did not say "this is that" because he had studied it out but rather because it was revealed to him.

If you ask God to show you His truth and He sends someone such as I to show it to you...the question becomes are you humble enough to hear His voice through whomever He wishes to speak? the door to understanding the deep things of God word is to simply "go with it" as He shows you stuff and search the scriptures afterwards. Right now you will not believe anything or even considering anything that you don't already approve of.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[veteran]

Even when one uses the term 'Rapture' today it presupposes ideas from men's doctrines, so why even get into all that when the term won't even align with Scripture???

Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Post-trib, most all believe Christ will 'rapture' His Church to Heaven apart from this earth, and none of them is correct per The Scriptures.

What actually is... taught in God's Word is that at Christ's second coming, He will gather His Church from Heaven and from the earth, and take them to Jerusalem, on earth. Also, God's Word teaches that those on earth will be changed at the "twinkling of an eye" (per Apostle Paul). And also, the elements (rudiments) of man's works will be burned and consumed off the earth.

What that points to is that those of us in Christ still on earth at His coming must be 'changed' to the same kind of body His saints from Heaven He brings with Him will be in, and both joined together as one body with Christ to go to Jerusalem on earth.

Moreover, Scripture also shows the resurrection and change on earth also happens for the wicked, except they are separated and apart from His Body.

Then in Rev.20, we are shown Christ and His elect of the first resurrection reigning over the nations set apart for a thousand years.

This is pointing to the Heavenly dimension which exists today behind a veil, being revealed right here, on earth. One can call it Heaven, but it will actually be both dimensions of existence joined together in the same time and space, excluding The Father's direct Presence on earth only. After the "lake of fire" event at the end of Christ's thousand years reign, the full Godhead will return to this earth for God's Eternity.

So how could a simple term from men's ideas like 'rapture' ever truly explain all that? It cannot, nor does it intend to, but the term 'rapture' is only used by those who do not understand these future events God's Word shows those who heed His Word line upon line and chapter by chapter by The Holy Spirit.

Like to play 'men's doctrines'? Then keep on with the crazy 'rapture' term debates which will lead to a road that goes nowhere, but will give you plenty of politics to play with at parties.

 

[7angels]

Dear 7,

I am trying to get you to see that you don't have to have two or three verses to support every conclusion you come too. What I have said about the scroll is true. It harmonizes beautifully with everything in the scripture yet you don't see to be able to see this because, basically, you fear making a mistake. The truth is that God has to reveal to us what He has put in the scripture and we do not have to prove it when we know His voice. Yes, once you study it out it will prove true but there comes a time when we know it is true simply because we know Him.
you say the the scroll on revelations that Jesus only is able to open is the book of life. then i have a few questions you should be able to answer if what you say is true. 1. why is Jesus the only one found worthy to open the scroll(book of life) when God the Father is there along with the Holy Spirit? 2. you say 'Just like my view of the rapture you have to recieve such things from God's Spirit or else you just cannot see straight'. Do you know what the bible says about those who believe they are the only ones with a private interpretation of the Word? 3. you say 'The truth is that God has to reveal to us what He has put in the scripture and we do not have to prove it when we know His voice'. this is unscriptural because God says that He would never contradict Himself whether it comes through His Word or from the mouth of God himself? 4. do you know that the devil can speak to a person just as God can and if you want to believe something bad enough that the devil will confirm what you want to believe as truth just to keep you off track? 5. you say 'Without the seals being removed by the Lamb which has been found worthy there could be no salvation for anyone except Jesus'. this is unscriptural according to the Word of God which says salvation comes by making Jesus the Lord and Savior of our life and believing that He died and rose again for our sins.

If you really wanted to know the truth you would have studied this out to pove it and see if it is true. All you have been doning is ranting and raving that I can't possibly know that the scroll is the Lamb's book of life rather than considering it. You are being willfully blind for no good reason. I am not trying to put you down to goad you to action. Peter did not say "this is that" because he had studied it out but rather because it was revealed to him.
the questions listed above are just a few questions that i have that keep me from believing what you are telling me is truth.

If you ask God to show you His truth and He sends someone such as I to show it to you...the question becomes are you humble enough to hear His voice through whomever He wishes to speak? the door to understanding the deep things of God word is to simply "go with it" as He shows you stuff and search the scriptures afterwards. Right now you will not believe anything or even considering anything that you don't already approve of.

Blessings,

Justin

veteran

it is great hearing from you but i would really appreciate it if you would get your story straight. last time i talked to you about this issue you believed in a post rapture and now you claim again that you believe in no rapture at all. i mean no offense vet

God bless

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear 7,

1. the scriptures state that only the Lamb was found worthy to open the seven seals. God was not going to open it because it is the Lambs book of life.

2. I am not talking about private interpretation. I am talking about revelation that is available to all if they will ask for it rather than fight against it. To have a light turned on and see what is in a room does not make it of one private interpretation...it just that the person got to see it because the light was on. I did not put the stuff in the room I am just reporting on it. If others turn on the light i.e. the Holy Spirit they will see the same thing.

3. The Spirit and the Word agree. However, the Spirit many times does not agree with our doctrine. If what I say I have received by the Spirit disagrees with how you see the word this may mean that you are incorrect.

4. For those who walk in the Spirit the Devil is very obvious...God and Satan are very different. For those who rely upon the tree of the knowledge of good and evil it is sometimes difficult for them to tell the difference.

5. Salvation is by faith. However, the picture God is showing in Revelation is that the Lamb had to open the 7 seals - the judgments upon mankind for eating of the forbidden fruit before He could read the names. Believe what you want but this is the interpretation of those verses. Admit it, you have a feeling I am true...grin.

6. You know...what you really want to know is how to do this yourself. God wants to talk to you directly too. The thing you need to do is to start listening and then obeying what he says. Do not fear but trust His voice. Take a chance and see what happens. God is big enough to reign you in if He needs too.

Dear V,

I suppose you do not believe in the Trinity then...being that the term is not in the scipture...grin

Blessings,

Justin

 

[7angels]

Dear 7,

1. the scriptures state that only the Lamb was found worthy to open the seven seals. God was not going to open it because it is the Lambs book of life.
the question you still need to answer is where is it stated, implied or anything that says that the scroll is supposed to be the Lamb's book of life? there is an old saying about assuming anything makes an idiot(nice way of putting it) out of you and me. i am not saying you are wrong but i want proof.

2. I am not talking about private interpretation. I am talking about revelation that is available to all if they will ask for it rather than fight against it. To have a light turned on and see what is in a room does not make it of one private interpretation...it just that the person got to see it because the light was on. I did not put the stuff in the room I am just reporting on it. If others turn on the light i.e. the Holy Spirit they will see the same thing.
if all you have is a voice that you claim is God is not enough proof for me to believe that what you are saying is correct because i don't know if what voice you are hearing is God's voice. the Word says that when God speaks it is to confirm what we already know and if i don't know the answer then i cannot agree with you because then what you say to me is only information that i cannot prove is Godly. sorry but i will stick to what the Word tells me to do to make sure everything that is said is true. there are more ways to judge whether something is correct or not. if you need me to explain what those ways are to judge i can tell you.

3. The Spirit and the Word agree. However, the Spirit many times does not agree with our doctrine. If what I say I have received by the Spirit disagrees with how you see the word this may mean that you are incorrect.
it could also mean you are incorrect in your interpretation too. but so far i have not seen you post and scripture proof to support your claims.

4. For those who walk in the Spirit the Devil is very obvious...God and Satan are very different. For those who rely upon the tree of the knowledge of good and evil it is sometimes difficult for them to tell the difference.
to rely on anything but God is dangerous. if that is what you are trying to say then i agree with you.

5. Salvation is by faith. However, the picture God is showing in Revelation is that the Lamb had to open the 7 seals - the judgments upon mankind for eating of the forbidden fruit before He could read the names. Believe what you want but this is the interpretation of those verses. Admit it, you have a feeling I am true...grin.
if what you say is true then there should be a type and shadow of what you are saying to prove your point in the old testament. otherwise you could just be twisting the Word to prove your point.

6. You know...what you really want to know is how to do this yourself. God wants to talk to you directly too. The thing you need to do is to start listening and then obeying what he says. Do not fear but trust His voice. Take a chance and see what happens. God is big enough to reign you in if He needs too.
you are making me curious as to how close a relationship you have with God. would you mind answering questions so i can judge for myself where you are spiritually?

God bless

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear 7,

You are in your fox hole and there is nothing I can say is going to move you.

You wish to judge me spiritually? Do you even listen to yourself? Wow, that is some wall to wall humility you have got going...smile.

I believe in Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.
I am Spirit filled with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
I am entered into the beginnings of the Tabernacle experiece.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[John S]

Would you want to provide that "evidence" that you have spoken in tongues, other than your claim? I'm inclined to believe that you may have spoken gibberish.
If the "Spirit" has filled you, then are you claiming that you are NEVER wrong? I'm going to assume that the Spirit doesn't lie.

 

[veteran]

veteran

it is great hearing from you but i would really appreciate it if you would get your story straight. last time i talked to you about this issue you believed in a post rapture and now you claim again that you believe in no rapture at all. i mean no offense vet

God bless

Not a good thing that you want to put your own words into other people's mouths.

You will not find anywhere in my post above that says I don't believe in the idea you all call 'the rapture'. The difference is I stick to how Scripture declares Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, including the timing Scripture gives for it.

What you will find, if you really read my post, are pointers to the actual events God's Word says will occur, and how they will occur, irregardless of usage of the term 'rapture'.

So what I've briefly done is to cover some of the actual events of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him with greater understanding without playing games with terms like 'rapture', something I don't see many others attempting to do here.

Dear V,

I suppose you do not believe in the Trinity then...being that the term is not in the scipture...grin

Blessings,

Justin

Yes, I believe in the idea of the trinity of The Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. God's Word does not need a political term to describe that idea either. Same for the events of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

Some theologians will even use the Greek word for "coming" like 'Parousia' and try and turn it into a grand religious-political term when all it means is literally a coming, advent, return, presence, arrival, etc.

God's people have a bad habit of creating grand slogans to go with events God's Word teaches. It's kind of like 'word worship'.

And that's exactly what many do with the term 'Rapture', which actually comes from the Latin for the Greek word 'harpazo' ("caught up").

So why hasn't anyone created a grand slogan to go with the KJV rendering of 'harpazo', like "The Great Caught Up"???

Obviously, if they did that it would make them sound a bit silly now wouldn't it? It wouldn't really explain the events of the gathering in the detail that Scripture defines it either. Thus I use the terms like the KJV uses from translation of the Greek, like 'gathering to Christ Jesus'. I'll bet no one here has to ask what I mean by that term either, nor even the unbeliever.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear J,

Unfortunately, I cannot convince people about the Holy Spirit because it is through revelation that people come to the truth. What passes for Christianity these days is so far removed from what the first century church experienced it is almost like comparing apples to oranges.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[veteran]

Dear J,

Unfortunately, I cannot convince people about the Holy Spirit because it is through revelation that people come to the truth. What passes for Christianity these days is so far removed from what the first century church experienced it is almost like comparing apples to oranges.

Blessings,

Justin

You're a deceiver, because the junk you've been pushing here on this forum is so far away from what the early Church fathers held to it's pathetic!

 

[Eric E Stahl]

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV


Most of the rapture positions are part right.

 

[veteran]

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,

WRONG! You're another one that doesn't know how to read.

In 1 Thess.4 Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring the asleep saints with Him when He comes. And that implies their returning WITH Jesus FROM HEAVEN, back to this earth. At the SAME time while He and the asleep saints are returning FROM HEAVEN back to this earth, He gathers the saints on earth that remain (still alive).

These two Scriptures perfectly agree with what Paul said there in 1 Thess.4...

Asleep saints gathered...
Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Saints on earth gathered...
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

Jesus does that WHILE He is RETURNING back to this earth. To where? To Jerusalem ON EARTH (as per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14).

But the false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine YOU'RE on instead says... ALL the Church is 'raptured' to Heaven at Jesus' coming!!!

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear E,

Good comments!

Blessings,

Justin

 

[KevinMiller]

Just a Question :

Is there a difference between THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST and the RAPTURE ?

then there is also the FALLING AWAY.

are they diffrent events or are they exactly the same ?

I have read this , though :
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[veteran]

The great falling away Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2 is for the 'tribulation' time. Christ's second coming is for AFTER... the tribulation time. But since you've been listening to men's doctrines of the false Pre-Tribe secret Rapture, they've confused you as to this order that is written in God's Word.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul declared TWO main events MUST occur PRIOR to Christ's coming and His gathering of His Church:

1. great falling away of many

2. appearnce of the false messiah he describes in that chapter coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem to show that he is God and exalting himself over all that is 'called' God, and over all that is worshipped, along with the concept of the "strong delusion". It's that event which will cause the falling away of many brethren in deception. That coming false one will play Christ and have miracles to deceive many into believing it, and that's the "strong delusion" Paul was pointing to.