Harmonizing most rapture views

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Justin Mangonel

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Dear All,

trying to understand any doctrine it is good to stand back and gain God’s perspective. As I mentioned in some of my previous posts understanding Gods word is often hindered by a type of scriptural myopia that some develop when they get bogged down in the minutia of His word. In my view this is what has happened too many who hold different doctrinal positions on the rapture. People divide into different camps based upon certain scriptures that they believe prove the validity of their positions while other vehemently oppose them based upon thars. The reality of the situation is that neither one understands the underlying reasons for the rapture and thus cannot see the forest for the trees.
In the beginning God had an original plan for mankind that did not include sin. Had Satan not introduced his sin from outside the perfect system God had created Adam and his decedents would have taken a much different path. Here is a truth,

"What we term as the rapture is just God’s way of moving people around"
Originally, God determined that man should live forever if he ate of the tree of life. Obviously, however slowly man procreated, the Earth would eventually become overpopulated. God’s solution to this was to translate or rapture people who had walked with Him to be with Him in heaven. This was God’s original plan and is the reason for catching people away. We see an example of this in this scripture,

“And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”

Gen 5:22-24​

The key to understanding the rapture is simply to realize that it is not a single event but an ongoing method that God uses to transport people back and forth to heaven. A modified version of it is when God instantaneously shifts people around on Earth. Viewed in this way, we see many raptures when we examine the Bible. Enoch, Elijah, Those raised from the dead when Jesus died, Christ at his ascension, Philip when he was caught away laterally, possibly Paul when he visited the third heaven, the Philadelphia church, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the two reapings at the end of time etc. In fact, there have probably been many more raptures of individuals and even whole groups that we are not aware of down throughout the ages.

Those who hold pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib doctrinal positions on the rapture are all partially right and all are partially wrong. They are right to say that a rapture does occur at these times but they are wrong to assert that raptures does not occur at the other times. The only people that are mostly wrong are those who decry our blessed hope and say there is no rapture at all.

You can never work out the details of a doctrine correctly if you start with wrong assumptions about it in the first place. You may be very enthusiastic about digging for gold and willing to work long hours to find it but if you are not in the right place to begin with you will have little success. This is why we must allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth for left to our own natural devices we will not know where to look for it in the first place. After we have been led to the correct place by His Spirit we can then use the tools we have been given to uncover the vein of gold that lies beneath our feet.

Revelation is just that: a revealing of that which is hidden or obscure. The book of Revelation is a book that reveals who Christ really is. Christ is the one who is worthy to take the little scroll from our Father and loose the seven seals so that he can read it. The scroll is in fact the lambs book of life that is written within and without with the names of those who are provisionally saved. However, the seven seals have to be removed to finally bring about our salvation experientially. This is why you hear in heaven that now has come salvation. Most of the book of Revelations is concerned this event and the consequences thereof. Only after Jesus has loosed the last seal is he able to read the scroll, descend with a shout, and raise the dead through resurrection. The shout that Jesus gives at that time is simply the calling out of all the names written in the lambs book of life. When we hear Him call our name our mortal body is quicken and we are raised from death incorruptible. Those which are alive and remain are raptured together with us to be with Jesus where He is forever. After a time we descend with Him into a New Heavens and New Earth (a reverse rapture) where we will live with Him in His everlasting kingdom. Raptures will still take place as God has need to move people about according to his purposes. I don't know why people are stuck on the "one rapture" setting. Obviously, God had brought people up to heaven and down from heaven since the beginning. Perhaps this is how Angel move around.

In conclusion, much of the misunderstanding of God’s word stems from our lack of His perspective. Unless God points us in right direction we will never arrive at His desired destination. People often times, out of hubris; think they can crack these biblical doctrines through sheer force of their intelligence and hard work. This is simply not so. The Bible is constructed so that even a fool need not err therein but God will resist the proud if they try to understand His truth by force. Our minds, when submitted to God in humility, are valid tools to be used in discovering the riches of His word yet let us never overestimate our grey matter when it comes to our personal contribution in actually understanding it.

Blessings,

Justin
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Justin.

I am definitely NONE OF THE ABOVE! NONE of the rapture positions make allowances for a 2000-year Tribulation!
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear J,

Yes, I know that. But R seemed to think so. Perhaps he was kidding. Point is, and I will make it again, the "catching always" are just God's manor of moving people around. If you look at it from that perspective things start to make sense. People are getting bogged down in the minutia of the finer points of their positions and missing the bigger picture. This is why there is disagreement.

The other point I would like to make is that these types of understandings come through revelation and not through study. Those who can't seem to see straight have studied their positions to death but have not yet arrived at the truth. This is why the Spirit of Truth is necessary to lead and guide us into all truth for we will not find it left to our own devices.

Blessings,

Justin
 

John S

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Justin
1. I THINK that Preterists believe that there has been a Tribulation since the day that Jesus died - although I could be mistaken.

2. I'm not quite certain what the point of your topic is, so I will just give my opinion - and if I miss your point, then I apologize.
A Pre-Trib Rapture is either going to happen or it won't. There is no "harmonizing" that point.
If it happens, then the people who believe in it will have made their point - and won the point. Then I will say - Good for them.
If it doesn't happen, then they are in for a major problem - and I mean a MAJOR problem. They have been taught this doctrine since childhood that they have come to accept as fact. I doubt that they have even given one thought to the idea that it may not happen.
Someone comes onto this site and states that so and so is the antichrist. The first thought that comes into the mind of the Pre-Tribber is "NO -That is NOT the antichrist because no one has left. Since no one has left, then so and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that when he arrives, we would be gone.
Sadly, this is simple logic. "I'm still here - therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist". That is until the day that he proclaims himself to be God. Then the Pre-Tribber will say - "Uh Oh. What have I done"?

So NO, I don't see how you can "harmonize" the doctrines. I'm not a Rapture fanatic but if one happens it will be AFTER Jesus returns - Post-Trib.
I guess I don't believe in your idea of God moving people around. People will be staying right here to suffer through the Tribulation. No one is going anywhere.


As I said, if I missed the point that you were trying to make, then I'm Sorry.
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear S,

I suppose my point may have been unclear. The pre-trib people are right in that "some" will be raptured before the great tribulation. The mid tribs are right because some will be raptrue during the tribulation. The post tribs are right because there is a catching away before the great white judgement throne is set. The only people who are totally wrong are those who say there is no rapture at all.

Blessings,

Justing
 

John S

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The Pre-Trib people are NOT right.
The Mid-Trib people are NOT right.
The Post-Trib people MIGHT be right.
The No-Rapture people MIGHT be right.

Eventually, we will know who is actually right.
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear S,

I think that there may be a demonic spirit that energizes these many trib beliefs. People seem to be inordinately entrenched in them to the point where it divides the body of Christ. That is not of God.

Blessings,

Justin
 

Just here

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Justin Mangonel said:
Dear S,

I think that there may be a demonic spirit that energizes these many trib beliefs. People seem to be inordinately entrenched in them to the point where it divides the body of Christ. That is not of God.

Blessings,

Justin
People were blinded to who Jesus was, I believe it will happen again with all the ideas of tribulations, it will be nothing like anyone expects. In the meantime, when it happens we won't take notice because we're too busy arguing about it. We will have missed the opportunity in what the works God has prepared for us now.
 

John S

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Justin - So what are you saying exactly? Would you prefer it if there were NO Rapture theories? - but you said that those who believe in no Rapture are wrong.
Or is it that you believe in one of them and the others should keep their opinions to themselves?
PLEASE try to be more specific.


JH - Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture WON'T notice when the AC arrives because they will be too busy waiting to be whisked away. The day that the AC arrives will be just like any other day. The sun will rise in the morning and it will set at night.
 

Just here

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John S said:
Justin - So what are you saying exactly? Would you prefer it if there were NO Rapture theories? - but you said that those who believe in no Rapture are wrong.
Or is it that you believe in one of them and the others should keep their opinions to themselves?
PLEASE try to be more specific.


JH - Those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture WON'T notice when the AC arrives because they will be too busy waiting to be whisked away. The day that the AC arrives will be just like any other day. The sun will rise in the morning and it will set at night.
Maybe, but believing in something, doesn't make it true.

I go back and forth, pre-trib sounds nice yet God has never given His people an easy road either.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Justin and John.

Justin Mangonel said:
Hi R,

Not quite getting you. 2000 Trib? I thought 7 years was way too long.

Blessings,

Justin

John S said:
There is no such thing as a 2000 year Tribulation period.
Actually, there IS, when you read the Messiah's response in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 correctly. These are just three different views of the same event. So, when Yeshua` talks about the "abomination of the desolation," which was caused by the "desolation" itself in Matthew 23:38, which in turn was caused by the "abominations that made desolate" in Matthew 23:1-37 (which He mentions in Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; and Luke 21:20), it's clear (to me, anyway) that Yeshua` was talking about the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. which starts the tribulation (the "pressure"; Greek "thlipsis") in the first century.


Matthew 24:9-28
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Mark 13:9-23
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV

Luke 21:12-24
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

In all three of these "synoptic Gospels," these highlighted portions are all saying basically the same thing! And, according to Dr. Luke, the desolation followed close on the heels of the surrounding of Jerusalem by the armies of Rome in the first century A.D.

There are also contextual clues that support the first century: Why is a person told not to come down from his rooftop? Why are they instructed to "flee to the mountains?" Why are they instructed to pray that their escape not occur during the winter nor on the Sabbath day?

Let's start with the last question first: Who would be more concerned about whether they were fleeing on the Shabbat or the Sabbath day? The JEWS would!

Who would be concerned about escaping in the winter? Those who are on foot in the mountains would, and Jerusalem gets snow on occasion, being situated in the mountains!

Why are they instructed to "flee to the mountains?" Wouldn't it be those who actually stood a chance of hiding in the mountains? With today's technology and tracking abilities, fleeing to the mountains is no better than fleeing across a plain!

Why is a person instructed to stay on the rooftop? Because, similar to what one sees in movies about Aladdin, in OLD Jerusalem, the walled city, the buildings were so close together, a person could jump from rooftop to rooftop until they came to the wall and then he could escape over the wall without ever having to set foot on the ground! It was called "the Road of the Rooftops." If the Roman armies were on the streets below, it would be SUICIDE to come down and try to get through one of the gates!

And, in all three accounts, the end of the "thlipsis" is with the sun, moon, and stars event. Preterists (Amillennialists) suggest that this also occurred in the first century, but there was NO such literal event ever recorded. They can ONLY force such an event in the first century IF they interpret the event as allegorical. I don't. Therefore, it's a 2000-year "thlipsis" or a 2000-year "tribulation."

The ONLY way one could call it a "SEVEN-year tribulation" is to equate this "thlipsis" with the "seventieth seven" of Dani'el 9:24-27. HOWEVER, there is NO justification to equate the two! Some assume that the "time, times, and half a time," the "forty-two months," or the "1,260 days" mentioned in Revelation 11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:14, and 13:5. are each half of the "tribulation," but they are ONLY half of "the seventieth Seven" of Dani'el 9:24-27. Furthermore, the first half of the Seven were the three and a half years of the Messiah's "ministry" or rather, His offer of the Kingdom to the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah).

That's why I believe in a 2000-year "tribulation."

Furthermore, the verses that suggest a shorter time, Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20, are talking about the fact that the persecution, the pressure, the thlipsis, will not be a constant persecution, but that there will be lulls in the persecution from time to time to allow for the people to re-populate during this extended period:



Matthew 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Mark 13:20
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

These verses correspond to Luke's recollection of Yeshua`s statement in 21:24:

Luke 21:24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

So, I believe it is for these reasons that it is called a "great tribulation" or a "huge pressure," a "thlipsis megalee," in Greek, not because it is so awful, but because it is so dang LONG! Oh, yes, and it is a pressure that is primarily on the Jewish people because it was THEIR household which was left desolate!
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear R,

Many times prophecies there a first, second, and even more applications. Kind of like seeing a double rainbow. It is true that Jesus was speaking about the coming distruction of Jerusalem by the roman legions but it is also true that He was talking about prophetic events in our time too. Do you understand and agree with this?

Blessings,

Justin
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Justin.

Justin Mangonel said:
Dear R,

Many times prophecies there a first, second, and even more applications. Kind of like seeing a double rainbow. It is true that Jesus was speaking about the coming distruction of Jerusalem by the roman legions but it is also true that He was talking about prophetic events in our time too. Do you understand and agree with this?

Blessings,

Justin
Sure! That's what I've been saying. However, it is important to understand that PART of the verses of the Olivet Discourse were for the first century and PART of the verses were for the present and our future. We should not try to make MOST of the verses take on a double role. A prophecy, once fulfilled, is NOT fulfilled again. If it were, then how could we know when the prophecy was truly fulfilled or not?

This is a common mistake among Christians who have heard about the Law of Double Reference:

As Douglas Connelly said in his book, Bible Prophecy For Blockheads: A User-Friendly Look at the End Times (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, c. 2002) on p. 33,

Techno-Speak: Double Reference
The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming.
It is NOT to suggest that a single passage can be used to show it fulfilled twice, at two different points in time! THAT understanding is CONFUSION! (And, we know who the "author of confusion" is.) Again, if a particular fulfillment of the passage completely fulfilled the passage, then there's NO REASON to go looking for a second fulfillment! Mark the passage "fulfilled" and MOVE ON! That particular passage should NO LONGER BE USED as a reference for any future event!

You've heard the statement, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Well, when it comes to prophecy, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to believe the prophecy's fulfillment must be repeated!"

And, those who teach prophecy often fail to teach the fulfillment of prophecy! For instance, about 400 individual prophecies were fulfilled in the lifetime of Yeshua`. Do we expect those prophecies to be RE-fulfilled?! We shouldn't, y'know! HOWEVER, if He left something undone, then we SHOULD expect THOSE prophecies to be fulfilled THE FIRST TIME when He returns!

We just need to be aware of which portion of the Olivet Discourse is in the category "ALREADY FULFILLED" and which are yet in the category "TO BE FULFILLED."
 

7angels

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i pointed out discepancies i saw in your way of thinking in red. if i am confused or misunderstand where you are coming from feel free to correct me.
Justin Mangonel said:
Dear All,

trying to understand any doctrine it is good to stand back and gain God’s perspective. As I mentioned in some of my previous posts understanding Gods word is often hindered by a type of scriptural myopia that some develop when they get bogged down in the minutia of His word. In my view this is what has happened too many who hold different doctrinal positions on the rapture. People divide into different camps based upon certain scriptures that they believe prove the validity of their positions while other vehemently oppose them based upon thars. The reality of the situation is that neither one understands the underlying reasons for the rapture and thus cannot see the forest for the trees.

this is one of the reasons we are told to study the Word of God and renew our minds with the Word. when we study the word we are also told that by the mouth of 2-3 witnesses will the Word be established. if we cannot find at least 2-3 scriptures to back up our points then we probably are off track concerning the meaning of God's Word. just because people see different meaning of the same verse does not necessarally mean someone is wrong. many places within the Word there are different meaning of the same verse but still those meanings in no way contradict each other but compliment each other. assuming we know a meaning by reading it can get us into error if we are not careful. only recently have we been able to translate the hebrew and greek language into different languages without losing the intended meanings of what is meant. everything needs to refer back to Jesus in order to help us keep from getting into false doctrine. referring back to how Jesus relates to every part of the bible will not keep us from getting into false doctrine but if we keep this in minnd when studying theWord that it will help alot to keep us on the right track.
.
In the beginning God had an original plan for mankind that did not include sin. Had Satan not introduced his sin from outside the perfect system God had created Adam and his decedents would have taken a much different path. Here is a truth,

"What we term as the rapture is just God’s way of moving people around"
Originally, God determined that man should live forever if he ate of the tree of life. Obviously, however slowly man procreated, the Earth would eventually become overpopulated. God’s solution to this was to translate or rapture people who had walked with Him to be with Him in heaven. This was God’s original plan and is the reason for catching people away. We see an example of this in this scripture,

“And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”

Gen 5:22-24​
i can understand how you come up with your reasoning but you seem to forget that God's original plan was not to include sin. if God's plan was to not include sin then everyone would be walking in perfect harmony with God and thus to translate certain people to be in heaven would be playing favorism which is not in the character of God. No i believe your rapture idea even though sounds reasonable does not hold water because rapture if you decide to research the meaning does not mean what you are trying to infer.

The key to understanding the rapture is simply to realize that it is not a single event but an ongoing method that God uses to transport people back and forth to heaven. A modified version of it is when God instantaneously shifts people around on Earth. Viewed in this way, we see many raptures when we examine the Bible. Enoch, Elijah, Those raised from the dead when Jesus died, Christ at his ascension, Philip when he was caught away laterally, possibly Paul when he visited the third heaven, the Philadelphia church, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the two reapings at the end of time etc. In fact, there have probably been many more raptures of individuals and even whole groups that we are not aware of down throughout the ages.

where do you get the idea that God raptures people to earth and then raptures people back to heaven? according to the definition of rapture Jesus was never raptured because He went up under his own power. philip was not raptured away but transported supernaturally from one place to another. i believe enoch and elijah were put into the bible as a type and shadow of the rapture that the new testament speaks about.

Those who hold pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib doctrinal positions on the rapture are all partially right and all are partially wrong. They are right to say that a rapture does occur at these times but they are wrong to assert that raptures does not occur at the other times. The only people that are mostly wrong are those who decry our blessed hope and say there is no rapture at all.

from your view that you are coming from here i agree with but one thing you have not done was remember that the Word is also referring to a rapture before the last 3 1/2 years of the great trib(whether this is a pre trib or mid trib is uncertain) and a rapture of all those saints who were converted after the previous rapture took place left behind from after the great trib is over.

You can never work out the details of a doctrine correctly if you start with wrong assumptions about it in the first place. You may be very enthusiastic about digging for gold and willing to work long hours to find it but if you are not in the right place to begin with you will have little success. This is why we must allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth for left to our own natural devices we will not know where to look for it in the first place. After we have been led to the correct place by His Spirit we can then use the tools we have been given to uncover the vein of gold that lies beneath our feet.

who is to say we have the correct revelation from the Holy Spirit? i know people who believe they heard from God and they stand by it to this day but when you judge what they say against the Word then you find out that what they heard was not coming from God. another example is look at all the views of people on this forum. how can the same spirit be saying to different things and yet both be right?

Revelation is just that: a revealing of that which is hidden or obscure. The book of Revelation is a book that reveals who Christ really is. Christ is the one who is worthy to take the little scroll from our Father and loose the seven seals so that he can read it. The scroll is in fact the lambs book of life that is written within and without with the names of those who are provisionally saved. However, the seven seals have to be removed to finally bring about our salvation experientially. This is why you hear in heaven that now has come salvation. Most of the book of Revelations is concerned this event and the consequences thereof. Only after Jesus has loosed the last seal is he able to read the scroll, descend with a shout, and raise the dead through resurrection. The shout that Jesus gives at that time is simply the calling out of all the names written in the lambs book of life. When we hear Him call our name our mortal body is quicken and we are raised from death incorruptible. Those which are alive and remain are raptured together with us to be with Jesus where He is forever. After a time we descend with Him into a New Heavens and New Earth (a reverse rapture) where we will live with Him in His everlasting kingdom. Raptures will still take place as God has need to move people about according to his purposes. I don't know why people are stuck on the "one rapture" setting. Obviously, God had brought people up to heaven and down from heaven since the beginning. Perhaps this is how Angel move around.

correct me if i misunderstand you. where do you get the idea that the scroll which only Jesus can open is the book of life? where is it stated in the Word that the seven seals being removed brings about our salvation? if we are only raptured from the earth after the great trib then rev 19:7-9 who are these people and where do they come from and then in rev 19:14 who were these people who came to earth with Jesus before the rapture of those remaining upon the earth? the final rapture of God's chosen does not happen until rev 20:4.

In conclusion, much of the misunderstanding of God’s word stems from our lack of His perspective. Unless God points us in right direction we will never arrive at His desired destination. People often times, out of hubris; think they can crack these biblical doctrines through sheer force of their intelligence and hard work. This is simply not so. The Bible is constructed so that even a fool need not err therein but God will resist the proud if they try to understand His truth by force. Our minds, when submitted to God in humility, are valid tools to be used in discovering the riches of His word yet let us never overestimate our grey matter when it comes to our personal contribution in actually understanding it.

Blessings,

Justin
the bible because of how it is written is not a book that is easy to understand. a good example is all those that misquote or misunderstand what is written within. if the bible were easy to understand then we would not have so much debate about what the bible is referring to. all we can really do at this time is to know we are saved and to keep our relationship in God growing hotter every day. some day not too far in the future the truth of the Word and its meanings will be made manifested to all those within the family of Christ according to the Word. when that happens then watch out because there is going to be supernatural things happening that it will become common place like what God did for isreal when the left egypt for the promise land.

God bless
 

Justin Mangonel

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Nov 7, 2012
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Dear 7,

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. If you are His sheep you should be able to hear His voice which means you will receive revelation.

It is not favoritism but rather a gathering in of a mature harvest that would have taken place if man had not fallen into sin.

What we refer to as "a rapture" is just God moving people and angels around by His Spirit. This should be obvious if you can stand back a bit and look at this phenomenon as a whole.

This thing about having two or three scriptures to prove anything is fear based theology. Really, the only witness you need is the Holy Spirit. It is just that people are out of practice when it comes to hearing Him clearly.

I understood that the scroll was the lambs book of life because of revelation. If you study it out, though, you will find the revelation is true. Without the seals being removed by the Lamb which has been found worthy there could be no salvation for anyone except Jesus.

In conclusion, I think you are very sincere in what you wrote. All that you need is to learn to hear the voice of God clearly and trust Him above what your mind can figure out in the word. Once you do that then the Spirit of Truth will be able to show you where to dig for the scriptural gold you seek.

Blessings,

Justin
 

John S

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Jun 4, 2013
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Justin - Are you going to answer my question? Which Rapture theory do you proscribe to?
When you say that God will be "moving people around", where will He be moving them around to?

Since God "speaks" to you, I assume that He tells you the truth. Which Rapture theory is the truth - Pre, Mid, Post, or none?