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Hath God cast away his people

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Insight, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "Thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature" Rom 11:24NET

    What’s interesting about this moving away from natural Israel for the moment is the term “wild” by nature. Clearly Paul here is pricking the consciences of those Gentiles of the following.
    1. Their origins is one of flesh and characters which led to sin.
    2. They are to reject the “wildness” of their previous life now being grafted into that which is holy (set apart)
    I am really enjoying the heightened symbology of the tree. In hindsight we shall see that the “branches” were His selection i.e He Called! But of us the Gentiles He cut us out of the world separating us from the “sap” of the flesh being its carnal desires and giving to us the “sap” of promise.

    Mentally and morally this has happened to each of us here present.

    The end process is immortality. 2 Cor 6:17,18

    "Come out from among them, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you".

    God will only accept Gentiles as His sons and daughters in the Abrahamic way of faith, but first separation and dedication of all self.

    When this has happened it can be said, there is "no more condemnation" since we "walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit" (Rom 8:1).

    Amen
     
  2. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "And wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree" Rom 11:24NET

    WE the Gentiles are (and were) "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12).

    This verse is so important for a Gentile to understand:

    The question for every believer to answer is this “What does being without Christ to do with being an alien (or stranger) form the commonwealth of Israel?”

    Through 1. Jesus Christ one gains access to 2. Israel – 3. Covenants of Promise – 4. Hope and 5. God Himself.

    Many Christians to their great loss only recognise Jesus Christ and the rest is lost.

    However God's work to transform Gentiles is "contrary to nature", for they are without His law and wisdom, they will only show a godless character of flesh, and it is not "natural" for them to do His will.

    God in His great foreknowledge knew the predicament we were in so He showed us mercy that previously was not part of His favour.

    However, shall He not show this same mercy to those who were for so long His people, and to whom had been given the promises, covenants and law (see Rom. 9:4,5).

    If you have time you may like to explore the significance of the word "good olive tree" we find its only used once in this chapter like a number of words here.

    Rom 3:27-Rom 4:25 should help.

    Insight
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    And you do not see the presumptuousness of even this comment?



    Just look at all your comments contrary to Christ here:

    You said, "to imply God is a respecter of persons in choosing to use Israel to redeem this earth" Is God using that fleshly Israel to redeem this earth?

    You said, "The Work of salvation finds it source in Israel, from which came the Lord Jesus Christ." Do you not care that Jesus said God could raise up the stones as sons to Israel? Is Israel the source of Jesus or is God?

    And again you say, "As per the promise which Jesus confirmed “that all nations of the earth shall be blessed in Abraham” deflates your argument rather quickly." Though I posted it previously, you have yet ignored that Paul saw that as being already fulfilled as far as it concerns the promise to Abraham's flesh, and therefore now it must be all about spiritual seed by faith: (Hebrews 6:14-15; Romans 9:27)

    I knew that you or anyone who read it would understand that it is Christ who makes that faith special. You are not that dumb. Well, at least I credit you not to be that dumb. :lol: But you prefer to see it as, "Your comment about faith being special lacks balance", which you desire it to be.

    :)

    There you go again with that subtle twist of trickery, "You may be confusing the special nature of the work being performed in them"

    It is not me that is elevating the fleshly nation. It is you You are the one that said in this very same post, "to imply God is a respecter of persons in choosing to use Israel to redeem this earth".

    I have told you that is the carnal flesh you are looking at. It is the spirit God uses, not the flesh, and that is why God does not need that flesh to raise up sons to Abraham. You keep ignoring that.


    And now you are going to try to show why that flesh is special. :lol:

    That be the body of Christ who are indeed circumcised of the heart. (Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:26-29) They are of the spirit, not the flesh. They are born again or they are not a part of that. And you know that the being born again is not about the flesh.

    That rings presumptuous. :)

    That rings stubborn :) because it offends you that I say you are seeing in Romans 11 what is not there.

    That proves I have not lied that you preach the inferiority of Gentiles.

    I need to get a wider variety of smileys. :lol:

    We both agree on that. The only difference is that I say you are artfully contriving a story within Paul's story. And you focus on that carnal flesh nation instead of the spiritual nation in Christ. I therefore I see that what you are preaching is delusion.

    ___________________________________

    You and your fleshly Israel are going to be awfully disappointed:

    2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

    Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"

    1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

    John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
     
  4. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    The comment is such that while you claim to move on from this discussion the content of these discussion continues to draw you in.

    Is this true?...or do you return to uphold your integrity?

    And I agree but you fail to recognise how the work of Christ, Elijah and the saints will bring that natural seed into a seed of faith.

    Your argument is flawed because you have no flesh to convert [​IMG]You believe in a coming King without and nation to rule over?

    You were drawing attention to the mere man but you fail to understand that which comes first is natural 1 Cor 15:46 but again you are the one who totally rejects the natural Jews.

    Why is it you are so totally opposed to Romans 11?

    The subject is speaking to the natural branches that were broken off and will again be grafted in!

    Do you have some personal addenda you have not divulged?

    And I am twisting [​IMG]

    This comment makes me laugh

    How can you circumcise the flesh if you don’t have flesh to circumcise?

    This is the whole point of Rom 11 - Paul is teaching the Gentiles that God has plans to circumcise their hearts with a New Covenant!!!!

    That's the point!

    Yes the Gentiles are inferior for they were taken from a wild (lessor quality) tree.

    Thats staing the obvoius Vengle - - in other words "get over it" face the facts you do not claim natural origins to Abraham!

    Try http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/index.htm although watch for the Distasteful ones!

    In conclusion - your plight to deny natural Israel is an unscriptural one and this has become very apparent in these studies.

    In the Masters Service

    Insight

    The comment is such that while you claim to move on from this discussion the content of these discussion continues to draw you in.

    Is this true?...or do you return to uphold your integrity?

    And I agree but you fail to recognise how the work of Christ, Elijah and the saints will bring that natural seed into a seed of faith.

    Your argument is flawed because you have no flesh to convert [​IMG]You believe in a coming King without and nation to rule over?

    You were drawing attention to the mere man but you fail to understand that which comes first is natural 1 Cor 15:46 but again you are the one who totally rejects the natural Jews.

    Why is it you are so totally opposed to Romans 11?

    The subject is speaking to the natural branches that were broken off and will again be grafted in!

    Do you have some personal addenda you have not divulged?

    And I am twisting [​IMG]

    This comment makes me laugh

    How can you circumcise the flesh if you don’t have flesh to circumcise?

    This is the whole point of Rom 11 - Paul is teaching the Gentiles that God has plans to circumcise their hearts with a New Covenant!!!!

    That's the point!

    Yes the Gentiles are inferior for they were taken from a wild (lessor quality) tree.

    Thats staing the obvoius Vengle - - in other words "get over it" face the facts you do not claim natural origins to Abraham!

    Try http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/index.htm although watch for the Distasteful ones!

    In conclusion - your plight to deny natural Israel is an unscriptural one and this has become very apparent in these studies.

    In the Masters Service

    Insight

    The editor for some reason stated my post twice and now will not allow a correction.

    Being said twice must mean its important - Gen 41:32 :)
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    :lol: You wish I did deny them as a peoples, don't you. That would be easier for you than my seeing them just as they are, 'One of us, children of Adam in-so-far as the carnal flesh is concerned', and with the same opportunities as us all through faith in Christ by spirit.

    :lol: And you think I leave the flesh out merely because I say there is no salvation in the flesh of carnal man. :lol:

    You know better than that.

    __________________

    But it did just dawn on me that you may be one of those who was espousing that separate creation of the races theory. In that case you do not see us as all being Adams children.

    I will have to go back to that thread and see if you were one of them.
     
  6. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    No Vengle,

    Somewhere in your walk you forgot which tree you are grafted too.

    They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    Remembering can be difficult...I have tried to prick your conscience but it appears for now its been seared with a hot iron.

    Insight
     
  7. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You are quite welcome to be grafted into the fleshly tree if that is what you want.

    As for me, I prefer to be grafted into the spiritual tree that is the true Israel of faith rather than that dieing one of flesh.
     
  8. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "How much more shall these, which be the natural (branches [​IMG] ), be grafted" Rom 11:24NET

    As we have already proven it is far easier for God to regraft an Israel which knew His will and laws, but which for a time have gone astray, than to convert ignorant Gentiles who were always outside His wisdom.

    Again Paul is showing the Gentile they are extremely privileged to be called into the Israel tree.

    The irony in this is found even in their apostasy. The Jews show a greater aptitude for reverence than do Gentiles today. Paul is a great example this. He honoured God's authority, although he did not understand His purpose of redemption, resting on the precepts of law and ritual without faith.

    Of course this changed upon his conversion which by the way required an “experience” the like Israel is yet to have.

    It is true that the "lump" and "branches" must yet be converted and offered to Yahweh. See Rom 11:16; Jer. 33:9.

    Not my words but His

    Where did I say we would be grafted into a natural tree?

    More twisting as you endeavour to justify your position.

    I have always stated the root are the promises from Yahweh and yes Vengle they are spiritual.

    You sure bring out some woopers!

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Into their own olive tree" Rom 11:24NET

    Whose olive tree Vengle?

    The covenant of Abraham upon the basis of true faith (See Acts 3:25; 7:2).

    This will require of natural Israel to acknowledge the divine authority in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the true son of Abraham (John 8:39, 56; Acts 3:13). Both natrual and spiritual Matt 1:1!

    Insight

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    That concludes our section on Israel's rejection only being temporary and now we move on to discuss the The divine secret concerning Israel's restoration - Rom 11:25-32NET

    Paul here explains to us the purpose of God in restoring Israel, and shows that it involves the conversion and education of the natural children of Abraham at an appointed time.

    Their temporary alienation from God provided the opportunity for salvation to be offered to us, but natural Israels ultimate restoration will bring glory to Israel of God and honor to their fathers.
     
  9. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You present the answer to the supposed riddle you present but you ignore it because you focus on it being natural as if because of the flesh.

    It is natural in that it is the one first sown of knowledge. It would be easier only because of that knowledge which you yourself acknowledged but then ignored, attributing that knowledge to the flesh.

    The flesh has you blinded.

    Understand that God the Father is the root and Jesus the Son is the true vine or the tree. The branches are spiritual by faith, Abraham's true seed, true Israelite as to faith, circumcised in the heart of spirit and not dependent upon the flesh.

    You see God as the root but only see the man Jacob as the tree.

    You are blinded by the flesh.

    Where your heart is, there also your treasure will be.

    Don't you know that we can and yet ought to care for fleshly Israel in their tribulations, even defending them to have a place to live and call their own, without reverencing them above any other race of men?

    That is how faithless world leaders are even able to do so. We would be worse than they if we failed to.
     
  10. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle

    More contradictions as you vent your confusion.

    No need to come out so late in the discussion to acknowledge Yahwehs work with natural Israel when the entire discussion they have not existed at all in your posts.

    You now say

    I have never attributed the knowledge to the flesh - this is your hang up not mine!

    Then you go on to this...

    Who did the promises come from?

    Yes this is true and I have never denied this fact - Jesus will/has beneifited from the promises of God which were given Abraham and to Jesus Christ.

    Well done Vengle - you keep agreeing with all that I have posted.

    Except that which you have denied from the beginning.

    Natrual Israel will be grafted back into the Israel Tree. John 4:22

    "if" Yahweh is able.

    Is He able Vengle or not?

    "For I would not, brethren (Vengle), that ye should be ignorant" Rom 11:25NET

    You must understand the future intentions of the Father.

    As the gospel comprises "the hope of Israel" (as per Acts 28:20), by which salvation is obtained (Rom 8:24), it is essential that Yahweh's intentions with natural Israel should be clearly acknowledged by you!

    Only then can you see the divine purpose.
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I never said you do not speak a certain amount of truth.

    I said you weave deceptive thinking into it.

    And you do.

    You do not want to let go of the flesh. You refuse to let the flesh die and rise completely to the spirit in Christ.

    As I said, you are blind. :)
     
  12. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "Of this mystery" Rom 11:25

    Vengle, the gospel is not a mystery which is beyond comprehension!

    Consider mystery Gk. musterion

    The reality:

    The wonderful principle of divine restoration of natural Israel can only be truly understood by those who honor the Abrahamic covenant, and appreciate the purpose of God with His people (see Rom 16:25).

    The gospel is a "secret" hidden from the natural mind of the flesh (1 Cor 2:7), but which is revealed by the implantation of the Spirit-Word in the heart and mind of those prepared to humble themselves before the divine wisdom (Eph. 1:9).

    Thus far you have shown yourself neither a part of the Abrahamic covenant or one humble enough to understand the implanted Word.

    You have fought it over and over – and so far you have not once given your reason for rejecting natural Israel.

    Not once!

    Insight

    p.s I see the mystery Vengle and you deny it!
     
  13. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I don't really care what you choose for yourself.

    I do care that what you preach is subtle and will confuse (perhaps even stumble) those who are yet babes in Christ who yet need to mature in their spiritual reasoning faculties.

    But then I know that you will answer to God for having chosen to see yourself as a teacher before you were qualified.

    James 3:1 "Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.' (ASV)
     
  14. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I am amazed how often your comments Vengle contradict those of Paul's!

    "Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits" Rom 11:25NET

    The last phrase is en heautois...."in yourselves"

    Anyone who discounts the divine purpose with Israel have a conceited view that God had elevated Gentiles above Jews.

    Paul had spoken of such a "highminded" attitude in verse Rom 11:20. Because of that conceit many claim that God has no further purpose with natural Israel.

    Paul now answers that error, and explains that the divine rejection of Israel is temporary, and that ultimately redemption will come.

    Therefore to deny the purpose of God to restore Israel is to deny the essential principles of the saving knowledge of the gospel.

    Insight
     
  15. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    All you are able to do is not understand.

    You even refuse to accept that I am not rejecting natural Israel by saying they have the same hope as we.

    You are blind.

    You do not understand the administration in Christ at all.

    You have a mere glimpse of it but no real understanding of it.

    Go ahead. Stay as you are. Believe only what you want to believe.

    You are certainly not by yourself in doing that. :)

    Why wouldn't you be since you see what Paul says in the way you want to see what he says? :lol:
     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Good Night Insight !!! :)
     
  17. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "That blindness in part is happened to Israel" Rom 11:25NET

    "Blindness" is from the Greek porosis means hardness, stubbornness; covered with a callus, "metaphorical of a dulled spiritual perception" (Vine).

    You are yet to acknowledge their national blindness to the covenant of grace, is only "in part" as per Rom 11:7.

    The Greek word for "in part" is meros, which indicates: a division or share.

    The NASB translates it: "a partial hardening" Rom 11:25NASB "a hardening has come upon a part" Rom 11:25RSV

    The blindness is therefore not a complete nor permanent affliction but is limited to only one division of Jewry: those who refuse to accept the sonship of Jesus Christ, and who have remained stubbornly unresponsive to God's will.

    The "revealed secret" (or "mystery") is that such ignorance by Israel would remain until Christ comes to restore the nation to its former glory.

    Can you see the vision or has blindness come upon you also?

    How important is the word "Until"?


    For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

    Insight

    This is spoken from one who denies the twelve judges who will administer over the twelve natural tribes in the future Kingdom. Matt 19:28NET

    Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Restoration of the David Throne on Earth.


    The restoration of the Davidic throne: Ezek 21:27.

    The restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control: Luke 21:24.

    The restoration of the nation and theocracy to Israel Acts 3:21.

    The restoration of Israel's spiritual understanding Rom 11:25,26

    The restoration of the house of worship for Israel Lk 13:35.
     
  18. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I will concede I was in error in my explanation of what I said Romans 11:25 was saying. I looked back at what I said and it appears I was sleeping.

    So, thank you for coaxing me to look again. I only care about what is true. i do not mind being wrong at times. I could not afford to mind it. :lol:

    But, I think we are both wrong.

    First of all, you make too much out of it being a mystery. Of course it was a mystery to them that did not understand it. Dah!! :blink:

    But I said we are both wrong. I am musing the Greek right now as I type. And this is what I find.

    The direct translation of Romans 11:25 is as follows:

    “Not for I am willing you to being ignorant, brothers, the mystery this, in order that not you may be in selves discreet, that callousness from part to the Israel has occurred until which (time) the fullness of the nations should come in,”

    Now I will exegesis it using the inflections provided.

    “I am not willing for you to be ignorant, brothers, the mystery is this, in order that you do not become wise in your own eyes, the callousness [shown] from the part of Israel has occurred [and will continue] until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.”

    The emboldened word is the Greek preposition "apo", meaning, "to come from". It denotes that callousness is coming from that part of Israel. No doubt that callousness is what had the Gentiles smiffed at the Jews. (About like you are with me :))

    In that phrase "callousness from part" both the Greek word for "callousness" and the Greek word for "part" end in the sigma, denoting not only that they are connected by the preposition "apo", but also that they are in the genitive case. So we are clued that we must decide which one comes from the other.

    Does the "callousness" generate from the "part"? Or, does the "part" generate from the "callousness".

    Which do you think makes more sense?

    Paul is in no way saying that the callous part would ever become not calloused. That would be highly unfair as that callousness was in Paul's day and that would condemn many to die in that callousness of God's doing by your way of telling it.

    It is as I said, that Paul right then and there was mustering up that spiritual nation to incite those blind ones to jealousy through their preaching of the gospel of Christ to them.

    And at Romans 11:25 Paul was merely telling them, "That callousness which has made you gloat against them will continue and you should expect that and not let it affect the mercy you show through the preaching work toward Jews or any of those of Israel while you are working to also bring the rest of the Gentiles in.

    I may not have said that perfectly, but it is close enough for half a brain. :D .
     
  19. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    For me Vengle its never about who is right or wrong – have I said things to over embellish a point – no doubt but truth must be sounded, even at the cost of harmony.



    Agreed – but I don’t feel I spent a great deal of time on it being mysterious.



    It please me to see you write such things – may our Father be praised for His Word.



    I am sorry you feel this way – but I have gone at you very hard and been unrelenting I know.



    The sad truth is the minority being the very few like Nathaniel, Zachariah, Elizabeth, Mary, Peter, James and Andrew and such men & women who were searching the Scriptures daily for the Christ – they represented a minority in Israel – so my view is the callousness was the largest part of Israel and came from the top down!


    Pharisees and the Sadducees generated this evil hatred that permeated Israel!



    You are extremely right in what you say here and please remind me after this study is finished to show a couple of examples.


    When God is finished with Judah and Israel only those like Paul will remain – purified and cleansed of their ungodliness. Many of the those godless Jews will perish! :(


    I understand sufficiently to see that at the very least you have acknowledge the natural Jew has a future though they are callous in nature toward their messiah He who is powerful will turn their hearts back to the faith of Abraham, which is far cry from their current state.

    I know if I read over the posts I would regret some of the things I said, so I am sorry if I caused you offence.

    I am sometimes too passionate that my flesh gets the better of me!

    In the hope of increase.

    Insight

    p.s your endurance is a great example for others reading this...may they be in love with the Word as you are!
     
  20. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    This is a separate study on the holiness which is derived from the firstfruits of the tree.

    We are told in the Law which was given by angels in the hand of Moses, and called "the word spoken by angels" in Heb. 2:2, that mankind is sepeated into two distinct groups, the holy and unclean.

    This Law constituted the twelve tribes of Israel as "a holy nation", a special and peculiar people as per Exod 19:6; Deut. 7:6, 14 while it left all other nations mere "sinners of the Gentiles" as per Gal 2:15. All men due to the disobedience of Adam are made sinners as per Rom 5:18.

    It is important that we understand when reading Romans 11 that Israel’s national holiness was constitutional under law and not inherent.

    The true assessment of them revealed they are to this day stiffnecked, perverse and intractable people who were more inclined to the wickedness of other nations, which God still sees as whoredom. God choose a holy seed to come from Abraham and it was this “seed” which becomes their substance. See Isa. 6:13; 65:8, 9; Rom. 11:16 This seed has been carefully preserved, with a "blessing in it", even "an inheritor of Yahweh's mountains", who shall cause His servants to rejoice, and the nations to shout aloud for joy.

    Israel’s regathering to the land is one of our greatest signs in the modern age and proves conclusively that Yahweh has separated this nation to Himself for His own special use, this makes them holy, irrespective of the nature or character of the people.

    To prove this we only need look into the law to see animal, vegetable and mineral, solid and fluid, etc., all being constituted holy by the law. There were holy utensils, holy and most holy places of worship, holy mountains and cities, and holy officials etc.

    The holiness of this kind was the national holiness of the twelve tribes — a holiness conferred by the law of Moses, "which could make nothing perfect".

    It bestowed upon things a external holiness, a sort of holiness by appearance, which left the mind untouched".

    Yahweh in His wisdom would never leave Israel in this state of holiness and to do so would go against His strong desire to accomplish a thing once started.

    This veneer of holiness must finds its way to their heart, through a New Covenant, one collectively agreed upon, not a set of laws etched in stone but Living Words written upon their hearts.

    This is the work of the saints in the future Kingdom age; to be teachers after Gods on heart who will lead the refined Jews toward salvation in Christ Jesus their King.

    Our calling is very great and powerful, where we must go about making ourselves ready today, for tomorrow the Kingdom may come, and His Will will start to be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

    Insight
     
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