Have "you" made Jesus a Robber?

[Nomad]

Requiring the exact wording "God became man" is simply asinine. Once again you demonstrate the complete bankruptcy of your position and how baseless your objections. There is more than one way to express a concept and Scripture does just that. Any way you slice it, Scripture is clear.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .

Joh 1:14 . . .And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

There it is.

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

There it is again.

 

[Vengle]

Requiring the exact wording "God became man" is simply asinine. Once again you demonstrate the complete bankruptcy of your position and how baseless your objections. There is more than one way to express a concept and Scripture does just that. Any way you slice it, Scripture is clear.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .

Joh 1:14 . . .And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

There it is.

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

There it is again.

You do know there is another paradigm to this subject which neither side is seeing, don't you?

And just for the sake of your peace of mind, I do not see Jesus as literally "The one true God", either.

But I see something that neither side sees.

To some it up: God reveals himself in the things made. Not only in man, but in all things made. But particularly in his living creatures.

You are well aware that angels are addressed as though God in the OT.

But most have reasoned the fullness of that picture away when it is exactly what Doubting Thomas meant. So they do not see what Doubting Thomas meant.

And yes, At Php. 2:6 they treat that Greek word translated as robbery as though a noun when it is clearly set out in the Greek as a verb.

But do you know what I think trumps even this subject?

John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

The proverbs shows us that words kill. And I believe that to be the number one way we see John 16:2 fulfilled today.

Proverbs 12:6 "The words of the wicked are to lie in wait for blood: but the mouth of the upright shall deliver them."

By contrast, Jesus said, John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

 

[Insight]

Requiring the exact wording "God became man" is simply asinine. Once again you demonstrate the complete bankruptcy of your position and how baseless your objections. There is more than one way to express a concept and Scripture does just that. Any way you slice it, Scripture is clear.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .

Joh 1:14 . . .And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

There it is.

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

There it is again.

The point you are unable to express Jesus Christ in inspired terms is noted.

I am still interested in how you present Christ in possession the Yahweh;s glorious nature while dwellng in sins' flesh.

So I ask you once again to reconcile your belief of 1 Tim 6:16 with the nature of Jesus Christ:

Jesus partook of our death stricken-nature, we are able to comprehend in what way his death was fitted "to declare the righteousness of God" (Rom. 3:25). In the days of his flesh (Heb. 5:7) which were days of "weakness" (2 Cor. 13:4) he was a man suffering with all his brethren the effects that came by Adam's sin. It was on our account still, as a matter of fact, that "he was made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); made of a woman (Gal. 4:4); "sent in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3); "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3). Consequently, when he died, "he died unto sin" (Rom. 6:10): sin was condemned in his flesh (Rom. 8:3).

Insight

 

[Nomad]

The point you are unable to express Jesus Christ in inspired terms is noted.

What a desperate remark. It's this kind of juvenile nonsense that makes it impossible to take you seriously.

I am still interested in how you present Christ in possession the Yahweh;s glorious nature while dwellng in sins' flesh.

I already answered you on this. Christ was made like those he came to save, but he was never corrupted by sin. I explained this in my previous post. Your feigned confusion at this point is no doubt willful and deliberate. Nevertheless, I'll leave you with yet more proof of my explanation.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

Got it now?

 

[Insight]

What a desperate remark. It's this kind of juvenile nonsense that makes it impossible to take you seriously.




I already answered you on this. Christ was made like those he came to save, but he was never corrupted by sin. I explained this in my previous post. Your feigned confusion at this point is no doubt willful and deliberate. Nevertheless, I'll leave you with yet more proof of my explanation.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

What type of nature did he bare if you say "he was tempted as we are".

 

[Nomad]

What type of nature did he bare if you say "he was tempted as we are".

You need to elaborate on this. I have no idea as to what you're asking.

 

[Insight]

You need to elaborate on this. I have no idea as to what you're asking.

Well, if Jesus was tempted in "every" respect as you and I, he by association had the same flesh. That flesh was held under condemnation (or sentecne) of death as per Rom 6:9NET.

We know[sup] 6 [/sup] that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die[sup] 7 [/sup] again; death no longer has mastery over him.

I am curious who you have Yahweh coming under the dominion (or mastery) of death?

Insight

 

[Nomad]

Well, if Jesus was tempted in "every" respect as you and I, he by association had the same flesh. That flesh was held under condemnation (or sentecne) of death as per Rom 6:9NET.

We know[sup] 6 [/sup] that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die[sup] 7 [/sup] again; death no longer has mastery over him.

I am curious who you have Yahweh coming under the dominion (or mastery) of death?

Insight

Yes, you certainly are full of assumptions and presuppositions. Unfortunately, none of them are Biblical. God's revelation to us in Scripture is that Christ became man in order to die and he did so without the taint of sin. You would do well to embrace this revelation.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

 

[Insight]

Nomad, you did it again!

God's revelation to us in Scripture is that "Christ became man" in order to die and he did so without the taint of sin

Now we had spoken (twice) about using terminology which is unscriptural. I searched the Bible once more for your phrase "Christ became man" and once again, I am disappointed to discover loads of webpages about the false doctrine of incarnation, but not one Bible verse.

You are right to quote the Scriptures, although none of them declared your “Christ became man” theology.

You quoted:

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Considrer the following:

1. Jesus was “made” lower than the angels (flesh & blood).
2. This is the first time his personal name (Jesus) is used in The Book of Hebrews asking us to consider his nature
3. Suffering of death
4. Tasted death (Luke 9:27)
5. It also reveals that Jesus benefited from his own death

The NET puts it this way:


but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone.

I like the connection between “him being crowned with glory” because “he suffered death”. Of course you would acknowledge Jesus only ever died once to death, negating the plausibility of Jesus's pre-existence with this “same” crown of glory.

Actually this principle also applies to his name in:

As a result (of what?) God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, Phil 2:9 NET

Again we would ask what Jesus name was prior to this name. And what is the value of his exalted position, if, as you say, he always held this name and glory? And how can God exalt God and give Himself a name which is above every name, but not actually above His own name as per Phil 2:11.

Ultimately, you will need to concede Jesus had sinful flesh as per Rom 8:3NET – and for a very good reason.
Likeness

Maybe you could stop thinking long enough to consider "why" Jesus was given sinful flesh? And how he cannot be God (i.e Yahweh in single person tense)

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

The Word has always been Yahweh...and the Word which came from HIm "became" flesh and his name is Jesus. Phil 2:9

Thanks for bringing us back on topic.

Insight

"The Word was God."

John 1:1

I search the KJV in esword for "God became man"

Zero hits...so let me try.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...

There ya go.

 

[Duckybill]

And just for the sake of your peace of mind, I do not see Jesus as literally "The one true God", either.

Jesus is either God or He isn't. He is.

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.

 

[Insight]

Hi Ducky

I don’t disagree with any of the verses you have provided

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Jesus is either God or He isn't. He is.

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed.

that word "by" there at Col 1:16 is the Greek preposition "en" . So it more accurately means that "in him" all things were created giving acknowledgement to the one that placed all things "in him".

And like I said earlier about doubting Thomas' statement, we see angels also called God in the same manner in the OT yet Jesus himself tells us that no man has ever seen God.

So that can only mean that what we are able to see of God must be revealed to us through one or ones that bear God's image.

And you do know that Jesus even in heaven is called the image of God.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Insight]

that word "by" there at Col 1:16 is the Greek preposition "en" . So it more accurately means that "in him" all things were created giving acknowledgement to the one that placed all things "in him".

And like I said earlier about doubting Thomas' statement, we see angels also called God in the same manner in the OT yet Jesus himself tells us that no man has ever seen God.

So that can only mean that what we are able to see of God must be revealed to us through one or ones that bear God's image.

And you do know that Jesus even in heaven is called the image of God.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Agreed.

It's comforting that a Christian in the modern era understands God manifestation, as revealed perfectly through His beloved Son.

Did you know Moses was called God also!

Who would have thought!

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

that word "by" there at Col 1:16 is the Greek preposition "en" . So it more accurately means that "in him" all things were created giving acknowledgement to the one that placed all things "in him".

It means the same.

New International Version (©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
International Standard Version (©2008)
For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand and in him.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
American King James Version
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Bible in Basic English
For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;
Darby Bible Translation
because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.
Webster's Bible Translation
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
World English Bible
For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

John 1 says that Jesus was God. God can't stop being God.

 

[Vengle]

It means the same.

New International Version (©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
International Standard Version (©2008)
For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand and in him.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
American King James Version
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Bible in Basic English
For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;
Darby Bible Translation
because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.
Webster's Bible Translation
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
World English Bible
For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

John 1 says that Jesus was God. God can't stop being God.

I appreciate that it does mean Jesus did the actual work of creating Ducky. But he did so as an extension of his Father, using his Father's power to do so. He is the Son Ducky. And the Father delights in His Son and so shows him all things.

It is this way that Jesus does all those things:

John 5:20-21 "For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

Answer me this Ducky.

If I go to length with proof from the scriptures and prove by the scriptures that Jesus is not God but only the Son of God who created all things of his Father's will, using the power that his Father vested in him (thus glorified him with),,,,,

would you accept it?

What I mean Ducky is that I have no doubt in me that the very second someone was able to prove to me that something I believe is wrong I would gladly change what I believe. I only care about God's truth. And so I look honestly at what is presented to me to be sure that I am on track.

But many people only desire to be teachers of the Law. They do not really have the humble attitude that desires to check what it knows. They therefore will not pay attention to sound logic and Biblical proof when it is placed before them. And that is usually indicated to be what they are doing when they get alarmed in their self by what is presented before them.

A person that is firm in his understanding is shaken by nothing. So that alarm in us is a sure sign we need to work on our humility.

Can you understand what I mean?

What is important to you? I ask only so that I might avoid contentions and so that I do not waste my time.

 

[Duckybill]

I appreciate that it does mean Jesus did the actual work of creating Ducky.

Which makes Him God.

But he did so as an extension of his Father, using his Father's power to do so. He is the Son Ducky. And the Father delights in His Son and so shows him all things.

And God called His Son God also.

Hebrews 1:8-10 (NKJV)
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Answer me this Ducky.

If I go to length with proof from the scriptures and prove by the scriptures that Jesus is not God but only the Son of God who created all things of his Father's will, using the power that his Father vested in him (thus glorified him with),,,,,

would you accept it?

I've read MANY arguments against Jesus/God but NONE hold up.

Jesus in the OT:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

If that isn't speaking of Jesus them Whom?

What is important to you? I ask only so that I might avoid contentions and so that I do not waste my time.

This is a discussion forum and we are discussing. Speak your mind.

 

[Insight]

Even some Trinitarians reading your post Ducky would be disappointed how you have presented your beliefs here.

Misquoting Heb 1:8 and wresting Jer 17:10

 

[Duckybill]

Even some Trinitarians reading your post Ducky would be disappointed how you have presented your beliefs here.

Misquoting Heb 1:8 and wresting Jer 17:10

Both are verbatim.

 

[Duckybill]

Misquoting Heb 1:8 and wresting Jer 17:10

You had opportunity to answer the question. You didn't.

"Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

If that isn't speaking of Jesus them Whom?"