Have "you" made Jesus a Robber?

[Insight]

I have written this short study for Netchaplin and others who misquote Phil 2:6,7 to infer Jesus is God.

Hopefully your minds will be opened to its truth.

Phil 2:5,6,7

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

In what sense can the above Scripture support the idea that Jesus was a co-equal, co-eternal, pre-existent part of the One Eternal God?

Firstly ,no such language is used to demonstrate equality on any level with the One Eternal Father.

However, it does declare that Christ - though he recognized himself to be by birth the Son of God, did not presume this supremely exalted relationship in any way, but humbly submitted to the fact that he, like all other men (Netchaplin & Insight) required obedient and active service to God the Father. Jesus like us was required to "work out his salvation with fear and trembling' (See Phil 2:12).

The true meaning of this passage is in fact found in in Heb. 5:8 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered."

I keep reinforcing the need to study in context and here highlights the case. What is the context of this passage in Phil 2?

Phil 2:9 "Wherefore (RV etc. Therefore) God also hath highly exalted him."

So here is the problem for Trinity believers.

Here we would have one co-equal part (Jesus) of the Supreme One God highly exalting another co-equal part, because the latter had humbly submitted to death at the command of the former?

Now where in the Bible is found or taught such confusion?

If so, please provide another section of Scripture to support such an understanding.

Let look at this passage in greater detail:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery (RV: thought it not a thing to be grasped) to be equal with God."

This is so well illustrated by Heb 5:8 that no deeper understanding is required.

Take a look at this contrast:

"form of God cmp form of a servant."

And compare this with the contrast of "Son & servant" in Heb. 3:5,6.

A humble Christian will start to ask question that aim to define the relationship and position Christ held with his Father.

Also in Gal. 4:2 "The heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, thou he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors (learned obedience) until the time appointed of the father."

Clearly, therefore, "being in the form of God" refers to the fact that his birth by the overshadowing Spirit-Power constituted him the "Son of God" (Luke 1: 35).

This understanding agrees with be Word and remains within the inspired account.

So Jesus being directly related to God, he did not presume a position or "grasp at" equality with God.

By implication Phil 2:6 proves without any doubt Jesus was NOT co-equal with God, and that he did not "grasp at" or Rob co-equality?

Though today Trinitarian believers so do.

But learned he obedience in like manner as those who were also made (created) and given life to save. Heb 2:17

Amen

 

[Nomad]

How about that debate Insight? It appears that you have a lot of time on your hands.

Oh, and here's the answer to your objections regarding Philippians 2: Since when can it be said of any created being that, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped? A creature, in the form of God, not counting equality with God a thing to be grasped? That's mighty big of a mere created being. How does a creature such as this not incur the wrath of God for such an attitude? You're fooling yourself Insight. Philippians 2 is one of the greatest proofs of Christ's deity. Your presuppositions blind you to those very explicit words.

 

[prism]

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
(Joh 8:58)

 

[Prentis]

[sup]32[/sup] And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD (YAHWEH)
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. (Joel 2)

[sup]9[/sup] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup]10[/sup] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [sup]11[/sup] For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”(Romans 10)

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (Hebrews 2)

Colossians 1:16
For by Him (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Revelation 4 [sup]8[/sup] The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“ Holy, holy, holy,[sup][f][/sup]
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”

[sup]9[/sup] Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, [sup]10[/sup] the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
[sup]11[/sup]“ You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

It would be robbing God if we worshipped one who isn't as though he were God, wouldn't it? Yet we are called to worship Jesus!

 

[Insight]

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
(Joh 8:58)

Prism, would you like to provide your understanding on this verse?

It would be robbing God if we worshipped one who isn't as though he were God, wouldn't it? Yet we are called to worship Jesus!

You took care with your words "one who isn't as though he were God" But NOT God Himself! No doubt Jesus requires the same honour, majesty and power as the Father but he is NOT the Father.

If this is the intent I would agree.

Insight

 

[Insight]

How about that debate Insight? It appears that you have a lot of time on your hands.
Oh, and here's the answer to your objections regarding Philippians 2: Since when can it be said of any created being that, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped? A creature, in the form of God, not counting equality with God a thing to be grasped?

That's mighty big of a mere created being. How does a creature such as this not incur the wrath of God for such an attitude? You're fooling yourself Insight. Philippians 2 is one of the greatest proofs of Christ's deity. Your presuppositions blind you to those very explicit words.

Patience Nomad, patience!

I am grateful at the very least for your use of the words “created being”… progress we might suggest?

Did you notice the preface to Phil 2:5KJV?

“Let this mind (or thinking) be in you”

What mind is that Nomad? That all claim equality with the Father as you would have Christ?

You boast of this passage being the greatest of proofs, although fail to even appreciate the meaning and context of the passage.

If you don’t agree with Paul in presenting Christ as an example of humility for Christians to follow as the primary lesson, I can only conclude your delusion runs deeper than first imagined.

You would need to remove your Trinitarian glasses to see the overarching lesson of Phil 2 is one of humility and servitude…NOT deity!

It appears this lesson is lost on you for the moment.

Now, does Paul go to great lengths to present Jesus as being flesh and blood, like his brethren?

Yes or No?

Where, I ask, is your Trinitarian "God - like - man" within the record?

Where is the passage in Phil 2 that teaches us that behind this servant - man is a Creator who is All Powerful and ALL Supreme?

I would be interested to see your interpretation of morphe?

I can only begin to imagine the creativity you would apply to such a word.

Again, you are yet to enter the Word, but reside at a comfortable distance, boasting of great proofs but with little to no substance.

Thus far - like a cloud without water.

But we shall see.

Insight

 

[Nomad]

Prism, would you like to provide your understanding on this verse?

Even though you asked this of Prism, I'll respond.

John 8:58 is clear and plain. When Jesus declares that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, the Jews said how can this be seeing that you're not even 50 years old yet. Jesus tells them that before Abraham came into existence (Greek: genesthai) I AM (Greek: ego eimi -I am or I am existing). The verb there is in the present tense. The Greek present tense indicates continual or repeated action. That's a mighty strange thing to say unless you know your OT. Not only is Jesus declaring that he is eternal, he uses the same appellation for himself that God uses for himself in Exodus 3:14.

Exo 3:14 . . .Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

It doesn't get any more clear than this. Jesus just told the Jews that he is God and they respond accordingly by picking up stones. They knew exactly what he was saying.

 

[Insight]

Even though you asked this of Prism, I'll respond.

John 8:58 is clear and plain. When Jesus declares that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, the Jews said how can this be seeing that you're not even 50 years old yet. Jesus tells them that before Abraham came into existence (Greek: genesthai) I AM (Greek: ego eimi -I am or I am existing). The verb there is in the present tense. The Greek present tense indicates continual or repeated action. That's a mighty strange thing to say unless you know your OT. Not only is Jesus declaring that he is eternal, he uses the same appellation for himself that God uses for himself in Exodus 3:14.

Exo 3:14 . . .Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

It doesn't get any more clear than this. Jesus just told the Jews that he is God and they respond accordingly by picking up stones. They knew exactly what he was saying.

Take another look Nomad. John 8:56

It appears you are wearing the same faithless glasses as the Pharisees. Get your thinking out of the earth and into the Word.

My 9 year old son could provide a better understanding of this verse!

Maybe Gal 3:8 might help you?

Jesus was aserting his pre-eminence NOT his pre-existence! See John 8:39

 

[Prentis]

Even though you asked this of Prism, I'll respond.

John 8:58 is clear and plain. When Jesus declares that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, the Jews said how can this be seeing that you're not even 50 years old yet. Jesus tells them that before Abraham came into existence (Greek: genesthai) I AM (Greek: ego eimi -I am or I am existing). The verb there is in the present tense. The Greek present tense indicates continual or repeated action. That's a mighty strange thing to say unless you know your OT. Not only is Jesus declaring that he is eternal, he uses the same appellation for himself that God uses for himself in Exodus 3:14.

Exo 3:14 . . .Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

It doesn't get any more clear than this. Jesus just told the Jews that he is God and they respond accordingly by picking up stones. They knew exactly what he was saying.

Well explained!

All the servants of the Lord point to God when anyone would worship them... Except Jesus! (Rev. 19:10)

Jesus is God in the flesh, he came down. The fact that God can dwell in man is the foundation of new life.

Jesus was the first to be have the fullness of God dwelling in him, while being fully man. The gospel is that we may be filled with the fulness of God, that he would live through us!

 

[Insight]

Jesus was the first to be have the fullness of God dwelling in him, while being fully man. The gospel is that we may be filled with the fulness of God, that he would live through us!

No doubt we shall get to this also.

 

[calbhach]

I've said this several times before, but to say that Jesus and God are not one and the same would be calling Jesus (And God's Word) a liar.

Phillipians 2:5-11 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[In other words, he didn't think it was robbery to have equality with God]

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[He humbled himself to be an example to the people how they should treat each other and how to live to glorify God]

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Meaning that all will praise and worship him...which in turn means that we would be praising and worshiping God. Our God is a jealous God. He wouldn't have us to worship anyone other than Him. Reference - Isaiah 42:8, Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 4:24, Exodus 34:14, 2 Corinthians 11:2. Jesus was worshiped in other verses as well, such as Matthew 28:9. Jesus would have corrected him if worshiping him had been wrong.]


John 10:27-30 (ESV) - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

John 5:18 - This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

John 14:9 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 20:27-29 - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

God and Jesus are both stated as being the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Revelation 1:8 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:12-13 - "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Colossians 1:15 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us)

To say that Jesus and God are not One is to say that God, Jesus and the Bible are all liars.

 

[Nicky_uk]

Hi folks.. thought I might join the discussion

When I have read this verse I see the context as Paul teaching about Christs humility and how we should follow His example Phil 2:3-5. He, who being in the form of God, took on the form of a servant. If you find it difficult to see that Jesus is God, then look at the words themselves. Jesus was in the form of God and humbled Himself and took on the form of a bondservant...so He was God (John 1:1,14), but humbled himself and became a servant (Matt 20:28) and He didn't consider that he was robbed of His equality with God, He gave it up willingly. Phil 2:8

Jesus didn't consider it robbery to come under the authority of the Father which meant he had to submit His will to the Fathers will. He had to become a man and live a sinless life for His sacrifice to be acceptable.

(I don't expect to persuade anyone who disagrees with me here by the way, I'm just adding more thought to the discussion.)


Phillipians 2 shows us that Christ gave something up when He became human and He didn't give this something up reluctantly, but was willing to give it up.

Jesus never denied His divinity, He never stopped anyone from worshipping Him and never shouted out to the Pharisees that He was not God when they wanted to stone Him because He made Himself equal with God John 5:18

For Jesus to say to anyone that their sins were forgiven, as far as the Pharisees were concerned that was blasphemy because no one can forgive sins except God. How can one forgive sins committed against another? If someone sins against me, I am the only one who can forgive them, my neighbour cannot forgiven someone for a sin they committed towards me.. that was why the Pharisees knew that for anyone to say your sins are forgiven, you are making yourself God, which is why they accused Him of blasphemy. Mark 2:7 - They even said it from their own mouths.. "no one can forgive sins except God". Mark 2:7

Jesus never said He was not God, He forgave sins, making Himself God, so either the sins that Jesus forgave were never really forgiven, or Jesus is God just as scripture says.

 

[Insight]

So far no-one has proven from John 8 or Phil 2 is speaking about the deity of Christ;

John 8 – is speaking to pre-immanence NOT pre-existence: -

Phil 2 – is speaking to humility and servitude

It appears in your bias you all have missed the mark.

Jesus was very careful to present himself and his Father correctly.

Jesus replied, 'If I(Jesus) glorify myself, my glory is worthless. The one (Yahweh) who glorifies me (Jesus) is my Father (Yahweh), about whom you all know 'He is our God'; so also see 1 Corinthians 15:27,28, where the Son is permanently subordinate to the Father as per Phil 2 & John 8

What you need to do is find a passage where the context is one of deity; only then will you find truth.

Insight

 

[aspen]

I am not powerful enough to make Jesus into anything - He is who He is. I have been frustrated lately with the tactic of some Fundamentalist Christians who like to confront Christians and nonChristians alike with the idea that they believe in "another Jesus" - implying that doctrine (Fundamentalist doctrine) defines God. Obviously, God defines Himself - He doesn't fade away when people develop pet doctrines to describe Him.

Doctrine is OUR response to God.............it should never overshadow the only response He values - obedience through love.

 

[Insight]

I am not powerful enough to make Jesus into anything - He is who He is. I have been frustrated lately with the tactic of some Fundamentalist Christians who like to confront Christians and nonChristians alike with the idea that they believe in "another Jesus" - implying that doctrine (Fundamentalist doctrine) defines God. Obviously, God defines Himself - He doesn't fade away when people develop pet doctrines to describe Him.

Doctrine is OUR response to God.............it should never overshadow the only response He values - obedience through love.

Sorry Aspen,

I disagree, but for the sake of peace and harmony I do not desire to argue with you here and now.

God requires his children to worship Him in sincerity (love) and in truth (doctrine).

Who are we to suggest He has a bias toward one or the other?

Insight

 

[aspen]

Sorry Aspen,

I disagree, but for the sake of peace and harmony I do not desire to argue with you here and now.

God requires his children to worship Him in sincerity (love) and in truth (doctrine).

Who are we to suggest He has a bias toward one or the other?

Insight

Fair enough - I agree to disagree. Love is the only Truth that matters.

 

[Insight]

Fair enough - I agree to disagree. Love is the only Truth that matters.

With what I have been revealed through the Word I could only hope this was the case, but sadly Israel’s history is the strongest example this is not the case.

God has not changed and a Lion is coming to prove that.

 

[Nicky_uk]

So far no-one has proven from John 8 or Phil 2 is speaking about the deity of Christ;

Scripture interprets scripture. For those who recognise Christs divinity it is easy to see what Christ emptied Himself of.

What do you say Christ emptied Himself of?

The context of scripture is the whole Bible, not something that is limited to a few verses in a chapter.

 

[Insight]

Scripture interprets scripture. For those who recognise Christs divinity it is easy to see what Christ emptied Himself of.

What do you say Christ emptied Himself of?

The context of scripture is the whole Bible, not something that is limited to a few verses in a chapter.

What did he empty himself of and where did it go?

Can you proved the book, chapter and verse.

Thanks

 

[Nicky_uk]

haha.. thats what I am asking you to answer.