Headship, Submission and Women in Ministry

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marksman

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Wormwood said:
Barrd said,



Barrd, surely you do not believe this. I mean, with this type of argument someone could claim that Mormonism or Islam is true. If our only standard for determining truth is if it is successful or "blessed" then what use is the Bible? We must evaluate this issue, not by the "success" or competency of women in ministry, but what Scripture actually teaches on the topic. At least that is my opinion. I look forward to the discussion ahead.
Sad to say she does believe this, but then that is nothing new in the body of Christ as there are diverse views as to what constitutes success.

A classic example is my own church which one would call a success as it has gone from a few to 10,000 in 10 years. Is that success? It is from my perspective not because of numbers, but the depth of spirituality of the people in the congregation.It is not one of those churches that is 3 inches deep and 3 miles wide. The songs they write all focus on the son of God and the praise is so powerful. I have not come across anything like it. The leadership is always teaching vision and people grab it and run with it. When you have 10,000 all going in the same direction, it is invincible against the power of satan.

A team of our young people went overseas recently to Africa. When they came back and told us their story it was a case of one miracle of healing after another being experienced by them and through them. All the product of vision as we want our church to be a healing church.

I myself was instructed by God to go and pray for a young man in hospital who had been king hit one night by a gang and hit his head on the pavement. The hospital said he would be a vegetable for the rest of his life. I took two other brothers with me and we prayed for his healing. He woke up and he is now back home recovering from the head injury.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
The man I married came pretty darn close...but even he fell short...just a little.
He was one of the very few men I have ever known who didn't mind helping with the housework. He even did dishes for me...every now and then.
Remember...we had seven kids...
My son has nine kids and he and his wife never do the dishes. They have trained the kids to do them.
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Abigail
Deborah and Jael
Esther
Judith
Hulda
Miriam
Naomi and Ruth
Queen of Sheba
Rahab the prostitute
Shiprah and Puah

Mary
Mary Magdalene
Mary and Martha
Anna the prophetess
Dorcas
Priscilla
Joanna


Ever hear of any of these gals?
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
It says that men and women are equals in Christ, Marksman.
Isn't that enough for you?
Once again dear lady...context. Without a context it is a pretext.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
Abigail Deborah and Jael Esther Judith Hulda Miriam Naomi and Ruth Queen of Sheba Rahab the prostitute Shiprah and Puah

Mary Mary Magdalene Mary and Martha Anna the prophetess Dorcas Priscilla Joanna

Ever hear of any of these gals?
Ever heard of any of these guys....

Abraham, Moses, David, Jacob, Joseph,Saul, Solomon, Elisha, Elijah, Adam, Noah, Isaac, Aaron, Absalom, Joshua, Joab, Ahab, Job.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Timothy, Philemon, Paul, Barnabas, Aquilla, Felix, Gamaliel, Herod, Pontius Pilate, Judas, Peter, Caiaphas, Nicodemus, Lazarus, Andrew, Cornelius, Philip, Nathaniel, Thomas, Simon.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
Add to that the ladies of Romans 16, and I think it is pretty clear that women certainly did have a part in the ministry of the early church.
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Note: Servant...an attendant, waiter at tables or other menial duties. Technically a deaconess.

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Note: Been a succourer of many.....a patroness, that is an assistant.

Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

Note: much labour.....worked hard.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Note: Andronicus...a man of victory. Junia...Junias, my kinsmen. Kinsman....a relative by blood. By extension a fellow countryMAN.

Rom 16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.

Note: Sometimes referred to as a fellow workman or a fellow worker.

I could keep going but this I think will suffice to show that your exegesis is in fact eisegesis.

 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
marksman said:
Ever heard of any of these guys....

Abraham, Moses, David, Jacob, Joseph,Saul, Solomon, Elisha, Elijah, Adam, Noah, Isaac, Aaron, Absalom, Joshua, Joab, Ahab, Job.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Timothy, Philemon, Paul, Barnabas, Aquilla, Felix, Gamaliel, Herod, Pontius Pilate, Judas, Peter, Caiaphas, Nicodemus, Lazarus, Andrew, Cornelius, Philip, Nathaniel, Thomas, Simon.
So, we have both guys and gals serving the Lord.
As it should be.
 

Barrd

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marksman said:
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Note: Servant...an attendant, waiter at tables or other menial duties. Technically a deaconess.

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Note: Been a succourer of many.....a patroness, that is an assistant.

Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

Note: much labour.....worked hard.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Note: Andronicus...a man of victory. Junia...Junias, my kinsmen. Kinsman....a relative by blood. By extension a fellow countryMAN.

Rom 16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.

Note: Sometimes referred to as a fellow workman or a fellow worker.

I could keep going but this I think will suffice to show that your exegesis is in fact eisegesis.

Junia is a woman's name. Adding an s to the end does not make her a man.
"Kinsman" is a generic term...just like "mankind". I think you know that. If you don't, I'm wasting my time on someone with no education.
 

Wormwood

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Here we are, behaving much the way the Zebedee boys behaved, arguing over who should have authority over whom...and not understanding that we are to be servants unto one another, just as Jesus made Himself a servant unto us. Instead of foolishly squabbling over "roles", I believe we should honor one anothers' talents and abilities, and encourage each other to serve in whatever capacity God has called us to serve...yes, even if that servant happens to be female.

At least, that is The Barrd's opinion...
I agree that authority in the body of Christ is not about lording power over another or using that power as a means to exalt self. However, I do not think it is biblically appropriate to say that because authority in the church is not to be expressed like the world that this means authority no longer exists. For instance, Paul compares husband and wife with Christ and the Church. Just because our Lord gave his life for us and loves us beyond understanding does not mean we should not submit to him as a genuine authority and obey him as those who are to serve in a subjugated role. So, it is true that authority in the church is not to be expressed in the same way as those in the world who use position for their own glory. Yet, this does not mean that roles, therefore, cease to exist and the Bible does not speak of a very real heirarchy of authority in the home, church and workplace. The Greek word for "submit" is hupotasso and this term was often used in a military sense to speak of one who was a lower rank or position than a superior. Again, this is not to say that women are of less value, but it is to say that the Bible does recognize roles and we are accountable to live accordingly. Children who rebel against and refuse to honor their parents will be held accountable and the same is true for all the roles we find in the Bible...either in the home or in the local church.
 

Wormwood

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OzSpen said:
Wormwood,

Professor Don (D A Carson) has exposed us to a wonderful exposition of the possibilities of understanding the 'silence' of women in 1 Cor 14:33-36 in https://bible.org/se...thians-1433b-36 (Stan linked to this article in the 'Slain in the Spirit' thread). There are excellent reasons for understanding that these verses do not promote a view of absolute silence of women in the church.

The late Professor David Scholer has provided a succinct view of the 'silence' of women issue in this article,
Prof Scholer also has given an overview of the issues of 'women should not teach' from 1 Tim 2:8-15 in
I have concluded that closing down women in ministry to a mixed gathering, even teaching ministry to such a gathering, has been caused by misinterpretation over the years. I wrote about it in, Women wrongly closed down in ministry

Oz
Oz,

Thanks for the material. I am working my way through it and have a few responses.

I find in these discussions, many who argue for egalitarianism do so by means of trying to argue what various verses can't mean but rarely give any information about what the verses do mean. Certainly, these verses mean something. The notion that the inspired author Paul would use general, absolute statements in Scripture with reference to women as a means of addressing a very local and specific issue is simply not convincing. The suggestion that Paul was only referring to disruptive women or uneducated women is laden with unprovable conjectures. I think there is a much more biblically accurate way to approach these texts.

In my estimation, Paul recognizes women's ability to speak, teach and prophecy but does not permit these activities in the corporate assembly. It seems evident to me that Paul is not specifically talking about the corporate setting in his discussion on prophecy and women in the beginning of Chapter 11. Rather, it seems he specifically shifts to discussion about the corporate meeting of believers after this text in verses 17-18 when he says,

“But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,” (1 Corinthians 11:17–18, ESV)
This makes it evident to me that he is not talking about the corporate setting specifically prior to this. In fact, he references meals and what believers do in various circumstances out in daily life being done "to the glory of God." So, Paul is simply discussing how men and women can glorify God in their praying and prophesying, but is not speaking of the assembly of believers in this context. Chapter 14 is specifically referring to the corporate setting and Paul states this numerous times in reference to their "coming together" and corporate activities. In this context, Paul makes it clear that there are role distinctions and women are not to lead in these activities in the corporate setting.

So, these verses do not contradict what we see taught in 1 Timothy 2 and these texts do not conflict with passages that reveal women serving or teaching in various informal settings elsewhere. We clearly see in the books of Acts that prophecy, tongues and prayer were not limited to the corporate setting (Acts 12:5, 12; 16:13; 10:44-46; 19:6; 11:27-28; 21:4, etc.) However, when in the corporate setting, Paul lays out roles and specifically prohibits women from the leadership roles of teaching over overseeing the assembly.

I am disappointed by both the Fuller articles. Neither one appropriately discusses the material and the idea that Paul would use this kind of language to deal with a very specific scenario in a local church regarding a certain brand of heresy is a very poor representation of the text. There are so many presuppositions here that its hard to know where to begin. The author's argument against this text being accepted as a true prohibition is basically because this would make it an "absolute" prohibition...and therefore we know that cannot be true. First, that isnt the case (the context of this authority and teaching is directly connected to "overseers" who must be "able to teach"). Moreover, it is referring to the corporate setting and teaching and leadership whereas the 1 Cor. 11 comments about women prophesying is not specifically referring to the corporate gathering of believers. Thus, there is no conflict here and no reason to assume that this text obviously cant be an absolute prohibition. It certainly can, in the corporate setting, and the references to creation and the fall make it a huge stretch (in my opinion) to try to limit this application to a particular group of heretical women or less educated women. The verses say nothing of the sort but rather clearly imply this is referring all women on the basis what took place in creation and the fall.
 

Wormwood

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I read your article, Oz. It is written very well with a good deal of research. I'll just quote some statements and pose some challenges where I think you may want to rethink some issues.

what the passage cannot possibly mean is that women had no part in leading public worship, speaking out loud of course as they did so. This is the positive point that is proved at once by the other relevant Corinthian passage, 1 Corinthians 11.2–11
It is not certain that 1 Cor. 11:2-11 is referring to the corporate assembly. Paul does not start addressing the gathering of believer until after this discussion. In fact, just prior to these verses Paul is discussing eating and drinking and in these verses Paul is discussing hair length, prayer and prophecy. He makes no mention specifically of the corporate worship activities but seems to be addressing the daily life and practices of the believer. He does no speak specifically of corporate worship until verses 17 and 18 and specifically states that he is now speaking of this setting.

There are some signs in the letter that it was originally sent to Timothy while he was in Ephesus. And one of the main things we know about religion in Ephesus is that the main religion – the biggest Temple, the most famous shrine – was a female-only cult. The Temple of Artemis (that’s her Greek name; the Romans called her Diana) was a massive structure which dominated the area; and, as befitted worshippers of a female deity, the priests were all women. They ruled the show and kept the men in their place.
Paul was certainly not afraid to address local issues and speak to those issues, as such. In fact, we even see Paul call people out by name in Philippians. Nothing suggests that is what is taking place here. I am just going to quote an extensive exegetical look at this passage from a scholar that I highly respect. Sorry this is kind of a cut and paste job but I am out of time. My daughter has a fever and I have to get her from school. Hopefully this will spur some good discussion.

Many egalitarians say that this verse was addressing a specific problem that existed only at that time and only in the Ephesian church; thus Paul was giving a temporary solution to a temporary, local problem. The problem was that certain liberated but as-yet-uneducated women in the church at Ephesus were teaching false doctrine and usurping authority over men in the process. Thus Paul’s concern in 1 Tim 2:12 was not that women were teaching and exercising authority over men, but that they were teaching false doctrine in a presumptuous manner. The problem, however, is that this alleged background situation has been fabricated basically out of nothing, for the sole purpose of allowing this verse to be interpreted in a way that is consistent with egalitarianism. That this passage actually has a straightforward complementarian meaning will now be shown, as the verse is explained phrase by phrase.

“But” (de). This first word, the conjunction “but,” may seem inconsequential; but it is important because it shows that the content of verse 12 stands in some kind of contrast with verse 11, which says, “A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.” Since the two main words in verse 12 are “to teach” and “to exercise authority,” it seems obvious that these ideas are meant to contrast with “receive instruction” and “entire submissiveness” in verse 11.
Thus Paul is saying that women must study and learn Christian doctrine and have an understanding of the contents of the Bible, but they are not permitted to use their knowledge to teach men or to have authority over men. This knowledge may be used in many other ways, but not this way.

“I do not allow” (ouk epitrepo). This prohibition is very straightforward; it says unequivocally, “I do not allow.” This is not just the unbinding opinion of some ordinary male chauvinist; these words are spoken by an apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ, one who was appointed to preach and teach in faith and truth (v. 7). As an apostle, Paul speaks with the very authority of the One who appointed him.
Some try to say that this command is not applicable today because epitrepo is in the present tense, which (they claim) means that the prohibition was intended to apply only to the time at which it was spoken, and not to the ongoing church. The present tense, they say, limited the application of the prohibition to that specific era. As one egalitarian says, Paul is simply saying, “I am not presently allowing a woman to teach” (Spencer, 85). Another says, “The present tense … has the force of ‘I do not permit now a woman to teach’ ” (Bilezikian, 180). (This is part of the view that the temporary problem at Ephesus was uneducated women teaching false doctrine.)
The fact, however, is this: what these egalitarians are saying about the meaning of the present tense of the Greek verb is exactly the opposite of the usual and ordinary way this tense is explained. The present tense actually indicates ongoing activity, not limited, temporary activity. Action described in the present tense is temporally open-ended, as in Heb 10:26 (“go on sinning”) and 1 John 3:9 (“continue to sin,” “go on sinning,” NIV). It is no different in 1 Tim 2:12.

“A woman … a man” (gynaiki … andros). Depending upon the context, the Greek terms used here (gyne and aner) can mean either “woman” and “man,” or “wife” and “husband.” Almost every NT translation takes them to mean “woman” and “man” in 1 Tim 2:12, but some contend that they refer to the husband/wife relationship. Paul is simply forbidding wives to teach and have authority over their husbands, they say. The implication is that this verse would not apply to roles within the church as such; it applies only within the home.

How can we decide what these words mean in this text? Since the words as such can have either meaning, the context is the key. In my judgment the context requires the meaning “woman” and “man.” In verses 8,9 the same words are used and surely mean “man” and “woman” in general. The same is true of gyne in verse 11. Also, in verses 13,14 Adam and Eve are cited to support the prohibition in verse 12. It is true that Adam and Eve were husband and wife, but when first created they were just “the man” and “the woman.” Adam represented all mankind (in the narrow sense of “man”), not just married men; and Eve represented all womankind, not just married women. As Gen 1:27 says, “Male and female He created them,” not “Husband and wife He created them.”

We should note also that verse 14 refers to Adam and “the gyne” (with the definite article), not Adam and “his gyne” (with a possessive pronoun). We would expect the latter if Paul were thinking of Adam and Eve as husband and wife, i.e., “Adam and his wife.” But he does not say this; he says “the gyne,” i.e., the woman. (We can say this confidently because elsewhere in the NT, unless it is clear from the context, possessive modifiers are used with gyne and aner to specify the meanings “wife” and “husband.” See Titus 3:5; 1 Cor 7:2; 14:35; Eph 5:22. But here no such modifiers are used.)

Another main contextual consideration confirms this conclusion, and that is the general context of the entire epistle. In 3:15 Paul informs Timothy that he is writing this letter “so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” In other words, he states specifically that his intention is to discuss church life, not home life. The fact that the instruction concerning women and men in 2:8–15 is followed immediately by instruction concerning church offices is indicative of this more general focus of the entire letter.

“To teach” (didaskein). The word “teach,” from the Greek didasko, is in contrast with “receive instruction” in verse 11. It is best to understand the word “a man” to be the common object of both verbs, “teach” and “exercise authority over.” Thus “I do not allow a woman to teach a man” is a complete thought that is separate from “I do not allow a woman to exercise authority over a man,” as shown below.

What exactly is meant by “teach”? Rengstorf (135) says the Greeks used this word to mean “teaching” or “instructing” in the widest sense, including the imparting of information, the passing on of knowledge, and the acquiring of skills. There is also a nuance of authority, in the sense that the teacher is telling his students what they ought to believe or ought to do. This is quite different from other kinds of verbal presentations, such as personal testimonies and reports from mission fields.

Since 1 Tim 3:15 specifies that Paul is giving instructions about church life, we conclude that this prohibition applies only within the context of the church. Paul thus forbids women to teach Christian men in all functions of the church sanctioned by the elders, including but not limited to public worship. He is not forbidding such things as Christian mothers teaching their sons, or Christian women school teachers having male pupils. Since church life is in view, we also conclude that the prohibition is limited to teaching Christian doctrine, or teaching about the meaning and application of the Bible. That is, Paul is forbidding women to give authoritative instruction concerning biblical doctrine to Christian men in any kind of church function.

What about the common egalitarian contention that the teaching Paul is forbidding here is false teaching only? There is nothing at all in this verse or in this word to suggest that this is what Paul had in mind. Also, such an idea raises some obvious questions. If Paul’s main concern here is false teaching, why does he limit his prohibition only to women teaching men? It is just as wrong to teach false doctrine to women as to men. Also, if the main concern is false teaching, why does he prohibit only women from such teaching? It is just as wrong for men to teach false doctrine as for women to do it.
Thus this prohibition has nothing to do with whether the content of the teaching is true or false. Paul forbids a woman to teach a man (as defined above), period.

“To exercise authority over” (authentein). The meaning of authenteo (used only here in the NT) is very controversial. One idea prevalent among egalitarians is that this word in itself has a negative connotation, i.e., that it refers to a kind of authority which in itself is sinful or wrongly seized. This view is perpetuated in some translations, including the KJV, which says “usurp authority.” Other versions use the word “domineer” (Berkeley, Williams, NEB), a practice that of course is objectionable by definition. As one egalitarian says, it means to seize autocratic, dictatorial control (Webb, 2:7).

This conclusion is drawn mainly from one of the meanings of the related noun, authentes, which in ancient Greece was sometimes applied to individuals in the negative senses of “autocrat” and even “murderer.” Thus, it is concluded, if an authentes is “a murderer,” then the verb authenteo must mean “to commit murder,” or at least to exercise violent and dictatorial control over someone. Thus Paul is forbidding women to exercise absolute power over men in a destructive manner; he is not forbidding the exercise of ordinary authority over men.

Others, however, have concluded that the verb authenteo does not have this negative connotation, but simply means “exercise authority over” (NASB, ESV) or “have authority over” (NKJV, NRSV, NIV), as most translations render it. In other words, it is not a kind of authority that is objectionable in itself, nor is it necessarily seized (“usurped”) in an unlawful manner.

One way to decide the meaning of this word is to examine all the times authenteo was used in Greek literature of any kind near the time of the NT. This has been done H. Scott Baldwin. He has identified, examined, listed, and analyzed all the 82 relevant uses of this verb from the first century B.C. to the twelfth century A.D. (see Baldwin, “Word” and “authenteo”). He concludes that in every case but two, authenteo was used to mean legitimate authority without any kind of destructive connotation such as “domineer.” The two exceptions are one use by Chrysostom in A.D. 390, where it means something akin to “usurp authority.” The other negative sense comes from the tenth century A.D., where it was used in the sense of “murder.” But these examples are too late to help us understand what the word meant closer to the first century. The fact is that every known use of the word in NT times and for several hundred years thereafter refers not to sinful authority but to a valid, positive kind of authority.

If authenteo in itself meant a sinful kind of authority, why would Paul again limit his prohibition to women? It would be just as wrong for men to usurp such authority as it is for women. Also, if this were the meaning, why does Paul forbid such domineering only over men? Would it not be wrong to domineer over women also?

The only sound conclusion is that Paul is prohibiting women in the church to hold positions of authority over men. The apostleship was such a position; this is a reason why no woman was chosen to the office of apostle. The eldership is such a position; thus 1 Tim 2:12 prohibits women from serving as elders in the church.

“Or” (oude). This simple conjunction linking “teach” and “exercise authority” may seem insignificant, but in fact it is very important for our understanding of the verse as a whole. This is so because some think oude links these two verbs together in such a way that they represent just one activity, not two. The idea is that Paul is saying that it is wrong for a woman to teach men in such a way that she usurps authority over them. That is, as long as she is not usurping authority, it is all right for her to teach men. Thus if the elders sanction it, a woman can legitimately teach a mixed adult Bible class or even preach from the pulpit.
This view assumes two things. First, it assumes that the word authenteo means “usurp authority,” which we have already seen is entirely false. Second, it assumes that the very force of the word oude is to link two actions together in such a way that they are inseparable, or in such a way that the one defines the other. One egalitarian has said that its English equivalent is ’n’, as in such familiar phrases as “nice ’n’ easy,” “hot ’n’ bothered, “eat’ n’ run.” Thus what Paul is saying is that a woman must not “teach’ n’ domineer” over a man, i.e., she must not teach men in a domineering manner.

Is this the proper meaning of oude? The answer is no. Köstenberger’s study of oude (“Sentence”) shows that it never connects a positive activity with a negative activity, but always connects either two positive activities or two negative ones. This in itself rules out the suggestion that the two verbs, didasko and authenteo, form a single idea meaning “teach (positive) so as to usurp authority (negative).” Also, though this conjunction does connect two things or activities that are related, they always remain distinct. It is usually like our combination “neither … nor,” and sometimes it is equivalent to “not even.” Its precise force in 1 Tim 2:12 is probably this: “I permit a woman neither to teach a man, nor to have authority over a man.”

“But to remain quiet” (all’ einai en hesuchia). Hesuchia does not mean “be silent” (as the NIV translates it), but to have a quiet demeanor or attitude. Apparently this was an important point for Paul, because he gives the same instruction in verse 11, “Let a woman quietly receive instruction.” Thus Paul opens and closes this two-verse instruction to women with an emphasis on a quiet spirit. This suggests that the Ephesian women did have a problem that Paul is addressing here, namely, that they were dutifully learning Christian doctrine but were not doing so in quietness and submission (v. 11). Rather, they were seeking to use their knowledge in an improper way, i.e., in teaching and having authority over men. This would explain Paul’s emphasis on a quiet, submissive attitude.

Jack Cottrell, The Faith Once for All: Bible Doctrine for Today (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub., 2002), 434–438.
 

OzSpen

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marksman said:
Ever heard of any of these guys....

Abraham, Moses, David, Jacob, Joseph,Saul, Solomon, Elisha, Elijah, Adam, Noah, Isaac, Aaron, Absalom, Joshua, Joab, Ahab, Job.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Timothy, Philemon, Paul, Barnabas, Aquilla, Felix, Gamaliel, Herod, Pontius Pilate, Judas, Peter, Caiaphas, Nicodemus, Lazarus, Andrew, Cornelius, Philip, Nathaniel, Thomas, Simon.
Another red herring. :wub:

In #24 the Barrd gave a list of women from the OT and NT and what do you do? You reply with a list of males. That is NOT what the Barrd discussed, hence a red herring fallacy by you.
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
Oz,

Thanks for the material. I am working my way through it and have a few responses.

I find in these discussions, many who argue for egalitarianism do so by means of trying to argue what various verses can't mean but rarely give any information about what the verses do mean. Certainly, these verses mean something. The notion that the inspired author Paul would use general, absolute statements in Scripture with reference to women as a means of addressing a very local and specific issue is simply not convincing. The suggestion that Paul was only referring to disruptive women or uneducated women is laden with unprovable conjectures. I think there is a much more biblically accurate way to approach these texts.

In my estimation, Paul recognizes women's ability to speak, teach and prophecy but does not permit these activities in the corporate assembly. It seems evident to me that Paul is not specifically talking about the corporate setting in his discussion on prophecy and women in the beginning of Chapter 11. Rather, it seems he specifically shifts to discussion about the corporate meeting of believers after this text in verses 17-18 when he says,


This makes it evident to me that he is not talking about the corporate setting specifically prior to this. In fact, he references meals and what believers do in various circumstances out in daily life being done "to the glory of God." So, Paul is simply discussing how men and women can glorify God in their praying and prophesying, but is not speaking of the assembly of believers in this context. Chapter 14 is specifically referring to the corporate setting and Paul states this numerous times in reference to their "coming together" and corporate activities. In this context, Paul makes it clear that there are role distinctions and women are not to lead in these activities in the corporate setting.

So, these verses do not contradict what we see taught in 1 Timothy 2 and these texts do not conflict with passages that reveal women serving or teaching in various informal settings elsewhere. We clearly see in the books of Acts that prophecy, tongues and prayer were not limited to the corporate setting (Acts 12:5, 12; 16:13; 10:44-46; 19:6; 11:27-28; 21:4, etc.) However, when in the corporate setting, Paul lays out roles and specifically prohibits women from the leadership roles of teaching over overseeing the assembly.

I am disappointed by both the Fuller articles. Neither one appropriately discusses the material and the idea that Paul would use this kind of language to deal with a very specific scenario in a local church regarding a certain brand of heresy is a very poor representation of the text. There are so many presuppositions here that its hard to know where to begin. The author's argument against this text being accepted as a true prohibition is basically because this would make it an "absolute" prohibition...and therefore we know that cannot be true. First, that isnt the case (the context of this authority and teaching is directly connected to "overseers" who must be "able to teach"). Moreover, it is referring to the corporate setting and teaching and leadership whereas the 1 Cor. 11 comments about women prophesying is not specifically referring to the corporate gathering of believers. Thus, there is no conflict here and no reason to assume that this text obviously cant be an absolute prohibition. It certainly can, in the corporate setting, and the references to creation and the fall make it a huge stretch (in my opinion) to try to limit this application to a particular group of heretical women or less educated women. The verses say nothing of the sort but rather clearly imply this is referring all women on the basis what took place in creation and the fall.
Wormwood,

Part of my being an honest exegete is to deal with, (1) What the verses mean, and (2) What the verses do not mean. By the way, what a verse or passage 'means' may be different from what it states literally. However, meaning is included in interpretation of a passage. What make 1 Cor 11 and 14 difficult to interpret is the 2,000 year distance from that culture.

You don't find it convincing that Paul would use an absolute statement in 1 Cor 14:33-34 (women to be silent in all the churches) and it be addressed to a local issue. Neither do I find it convincing. That might surprise you. So I had to examine the greater context of 1 Cor 14 and found that what Paul stated in 1 Cor 14:33-34 conflicts with 1 Cor 11:5, 'every wife who prays or prophesies'. On the surface, I have 2 options as an interpreter: (1) Accept that the God of truth who does not tell lies, actually does promote lies - contradictions. Or, (2) Pursue how these 2 Scriptures can be harmonised. That's what I've attempted to do with these emphases:

A. Women in ministry in the Old Testament

The Old Covenant had very different rules for men and women. There were special privileges given to certain male Jews and not to male Gentiles. Some had larger functions than others (e.g. the Levites). There were women in ministry in the OT. The OT congregation had almost no function.

We have OT examples of women in active ministry:
  • Miriam, the prophetess (Ex. 15:20);
  • Noadiah, the prophetess (Neh. 6:14);
  • Queen Esther (Book of Esther);
  • Deborah, a prophetess (Judges 4:4);
  • Huldah, the prophetess (2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron. 34:22);
  • Isaiah’s wife was a prophetess (Isa. 8:3);
What does a prophetess do?

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Judges 4:4-6 says that Deborah, the prophetess was “judging Israel at that time. . . the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.” To Barak she prophesied, “Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you, ‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor.…’”

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2 Kings 22:15 says of Huldah, the prophetess, that “she said to them, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: ‘Tell the man who sent you to me, Thus says the Lord....”

The OT prophetess was a public person who heard the voice of God and delivered it publicly to God’s people, Israel, and to individuals. She was a “thus says the Lord” person.

My conclusion: There were definitely women in active ministry to men in the Old Testament.

B. The New Covenant and women

Luke 2:36 speaks of Anna, the prophetess. This was prior to the passion-resurrection of Jesus. What was the situation after the resurrection?
  • 1 Cor. 11:5, “And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head”; so women had active public ministries.
  • I Cor. 14:26, ” What then shall we say, brothers [and sisters]? [3c] When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.” The word, “adelphoi” means “brothers” but it also means “brothers and sisters.” See I Cor. 11:2-16 where women are addressed (v. 5). See also Phil. 4:1-3 where Paul addresses the believers as “brothers” (adelphoi) in v. 1, but then, in the next sentence, in vv. 2-3 Paul addresses two women. So, the term “brother” in Paul’s writings refers to men and women.
  • Gal. 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
  • Eph. 5:21, ” Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”
A critical dimension of understanding the Bible is that God, being the God of all knowledge, is not going to give teachings in Old and New Testaments that contradict each another. He is the God of truth.

Therefore, it should not be surprising that God would tell us in advance what would happen with the coming of the New Covenant. He prophesied through the prophet Joel what to expect with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant, from the Day of Pentecost onwards. In Joel 2:28 it was prophesied: “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.”

Wormwood, your claim is that, 'In my estimation, Paul recognizes women's ability to speak, teach and prophecy but does not permit these activities in the corporate assembly. It seems evident to me that Paul is not specifically talking about the corporate setting in his discussion on prophecy and women in the beginning of Chapter 11'.

It is your 'estimation' and seems to harmonise with your closing women down in public ministry among men. In context of 1 Cor chs 11-14, the ministry of prophecy was manifested in the Christian assembly. To deny this is to go against the context.

That change has come about because of the New Covenant in which we live in the 21st century. The law of God is written on the human heart. The Spirit indwells people who repent, believe and trust Jesus as their Lord and Saviour – Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slaves and non-slaves. Special clergy classes of people are abandoned as the Spirit gifts all people for ministry, males and females.

C. If women are to be silenced from public ministry in the church....

And this includes ministry among men, it will violate God’s New Covenant. From the Day of Pentecost onwards, Joel 2:28-32 began to be fulfilled according to Acts 2:17, “And in the last days [beginning with Pentecost] . . . I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophesy”. We can’t engage in “prophecy” in the church gathering and be silent at the same time. So, the New Covenant has done away with the silencing of women in public ministry among a mixed audience of males and females. Therefore, 1 Cor 14:33-34 is in contradiction with this teaching and a better interpretation needs to be sought.

Some of Paul’s writings make the teaching ministry available to all believers, including women. In Colossians 3:16, “teaching and admonishing” is the responsibility of “one another,” which must obviously include male and female. If “teaching and admonishing” are restricted to males only, consistency of interpretation in context should require that compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, bearing with, forgiveness and love (Col. 3:12-14 NIV) must be practised by males only. Such a conclusion regarding Christian character is untenable.

This also is the teaching in 1 Cor. 14:26 where “each one” (male and female) in the church is encouraged to minister via a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue and interpretation when the church gathers. If women are restricted from teaching, consistency of interpretation requires their silence with psalms, revelations, tongues and interpretations. Paul affirmed the teaching ministry of women (Acts 18:26, Titus 2:3) and commended women in ministry (Rom. 16:1-15; 1 Cor. 11:5; Phil. 4:2-3.).

I find too many implausible 'holes' in the anti-women in ministry position.

Oz
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
...my view is that women can "speak" and participate in various ministries in the assembly of believers. I also believe that it is quite possible that women served in the official role of deaconesses in the assembly. However, I believe that the role of elder/pastor/overseer and teaching in a large group setting is a role that was restricted for men based on the writings of Paul. This is not about ability, but roles. I look forward to exploring the texts with you after reading the material you posted.
The problem with including pastor is that nothing at all is mentioned about Pastoral qualifications, other than Christ gave them to the church.
What Paul says several time in his letter to Timothy is "whoever desires". The Greek used is τις (tis), and is an indefinite pronoun, in other words, NOT gender specific.
Familiar Leadership Heresies Uncovered By Bruce C.E. Fleming, pages 87-94, covers this issue as well as some very interesting verbal sparring that Paul and Timothy shared. Understanding "pistos ho logos", and how it is punnily used here, is a good way to help make sense of this teaching. The bottom line here is that Paul is not addressing NEW overseers, but wayward overseers, both men and women. The "pistos ho logos" can make them fit for service again or anew.
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood,

It is not certain that 1 Cor. 11:2-11 is referring to the corporate assembly. Paul does not start addressing the gathering of believer until after this discussion. In fact, just prior to these verses Paul is discussing eating and drinking and in these verses Paul is discussing hair length, prayer and prophecy. He makes no mention specifically of the corporate worship activities but seems to be addressing the daily life and practices of the believer. He does no speak specifically of corporate worship until verses 17 and 18 and specifically states that he is now speaking of this setting.
This is straining at a gnat, with your trying to make this verse support your point of view of silence of women in the church. The fact is that prophecy is a public ministry as is clear from the proceeding chapters 12-14 of 1 Cor. Paul doesn't have to mention corporate worship in 1 Cor 11:5 as that is assumed, as is clarified in chs 12-14. You are whistling in the wind in trying to make prophecy take place in 'the daily life and practices of the believer' (your language). I find this to be a squirming to get out of the difficulty you face of both brothers and sisters in Christ having ministry in the assembly, incl that in 1 Cor 14:26.

Why can't you submit to what the Bible teaches? Women prophesy (1 Cor 11:5) and they exercise that gift in the assembly of believers (1 Cor 14:6; 14:26). Therefore, the 'silence' of women in 1 Cor 14:33-36 is incongruous with that understanding and seeks another examination/interpretation.

Wormwood said:
Paul was certainly not afraid to address local issues and speak to those issues, as such. In fact, we even see Paul call people out by name in Philippians. Nothing suggests that is what is taking place here. I am just going to quote an extensive exegetical look at this passage from a scholar that I highly respect. Sorry this is kind of a cut and paste job but I am out of time. My daughter has a fever and I have to get her from school. Hopefully this will spur some good discussion.
I agree. However, Paul WAS addressing local issues in 1 Cor 14:33, 35 (ESV), 'For God is not a God of confusion but of peace..... If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church'. Paul is addressing confusion in the Corinthian church gathering caused by women who were speaking to their husbands. He effectively tells them to shut up about that matter and ask their husbands at home. There is nothing difficult about this interpretation - except if there is an anti-women in ministry bias.

I will not engage you on the large copy and paste you have given from Jack Cottrell as your doing this paste does not engage us in the issues at hand.

Cottrell makes way too much of the Greek adversative, de, when he states:

“But” (de). This first word, the conjunction “but,” may seem inconsequential; but it is important because it shows that the content of verse 12 stands in some kind of contrast with verse 11.
De is only a mild 'particle adversative, distinctive, disjunctive, but, moreover...; it is much more frequent in the historical parts of the N. T. than in the other books' (Thayer 1885/1962:125). If Paul was wanting to make the contrast that Cottrell emphasises, he would have used the stronger adversative, alla (Thayer 1885/1962:27-28).

Oz

Works consulted

Thayer, J H 1885/1962. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, being Grimm's Wiles's Clavis Novi Testamenti, trans, rev, enl. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
So, we have both guys and gals serving the Lord.
As it should be.
​Because of the priesthood of all believers we should all be servants but that doesn't make us teachers. In fact it says be not many masters which means teacher as it is the same Greek word didaskalos.