This is a new thread for those who have been debating this topic in the discussion of slaying in the Spirit.
Headship, Submission and Women in Ministry
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Barrd said,
Barrd, surely you do not believe this. I mean, with this type of argument someone could claim that Mormonism or Islam is true. If our only standard for determining truth is if it is successful or "blessed" then what use is the Bible? We must evaluate this issue, not by the "success" or competency of women in ministry, but what Scripture actually teaches on the topic. At least that is my opinion. I look forward to the discussion ahead.
Barrd, surely you do not believe this. I mean, with this type of argument someone could claim that Mormonism or Islam is true. If our only standard for determining truth is if it is successful or "blessed" then what use is the Bible? We must evaluate this issue, not by the "success" or competency of women in ministry, but what Scripture actually teaches on the topic. At least that is my opinion. I look forward to the discussion ahead.
OzSpen
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Wormwood,Wormwood said:
Professor Don (D A Carson) has exposed us to a wonderful exposition of the possibilities of understanding the 'silence' of women in 1 Cor 14:33-36 in https://bible.org/se...thians-1433b-36 (Stan linked to this article in the 'Slain in the Spirit' thread). There are excellent reasons for understanding that these verses do not promote a view of absolute silence of women in the church.
The late Professor David Scholer has provided a succinct view of the 'silence' of women issue in this article,
- http://fuller.edu/ab...hians-14-34–35/ (Stan's link from the other thread).
- http://fuller.edu/About/Women-in-Ministry/Women-in-Ministry--1-Timothy-2-8%E2%80%9315/. I have found this to be a compelling article that deals with the major issues - and fairly briefly.
Oz
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
100% true Wormwood. I Know of a pastor that is a "success" because he slavishly does what the denomination tells him to do. After announcing that God told him that He was going to double their congregation every year, he has never had so few people who attend. But that doesn't matter that he is a false prophet as long as he does as he is told.Wormwood said:
I love watching, as you scholars thrash these things out. It is amazing, the things a poor hack writer from Alabama can learn from you guys.
Please, never stop teaching us.
But I gotta tell you...it was enough for me to know that, in Christ, those old barriers are broken down.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(I'm just real glad to know that the scholars agree with Him.)
Please, never stop teaching us.
But I gotta tell you...it was enough for me to know that, in Christ, those old barriers are broken down.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(I'm just real glad to know that the scholars agree with Him.)
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Having been employed to study culture and society for the church in my area and write papers of same, and successfully completed a degree in Social Science at University, I have noticed that the church has paralleled the world in its modus operandi.
When the feminist movement reared its ugly head and demanded equality with men and started to get very aggressive about it, even to the point of demanding the right to murder their babies in the womb, a parallel feminist movement began in the church demanding equality in leadership. It began in the Anglican church and spread out most noticeable in the pentecostal church.
Whereas the pentecostal church had male pastors, slowly and surreptitiously Pastors Jack and Jill Jones started appearing on the notice boards as the leaders. Much later Pastor Jill started to fill the pulpit on a Sunday morning. And even later Pastor Jill Jones was the only pastor.
Now, particularly in America we have female Bishops in the Anglican Church which doesn't surprise me as they have homosexual Bishops. When you give way on one sin, the slippery slope takes over.
During all this upheaval men have moved further into the background and tend to abdicate their position of authority and leadership. At the same time the appearance of the "Jezebel" woman became obvious who did what she could to surreptitiously undermine male authority.
In the natural world when strong leadership was needed it seems to be that women stepped forward. Three notables were Golda Meir of Israel, Margaret Thatcher from the UK and Angela Merkel in Germany. I was living in the UK when Margaret Thatcher was elected to the top position and she inherited a right mess and by the time she left office Britain was buzzing again.
Despite all this, that is not the natural plan that God set out and when a man or men fall into line with the authority given to them by God, there is a natural order that benefits everyone. That is not to say every man in authority is doing a good job but it does not alter the fact that a man in submission to the will of God will always do a better job of his calling.
Just a little anecdote, my daughter who is the senior executive assistant at her place of work which means she is at the top of her tree, has worked for all sorts of bosses so she know how the cookie crumbles, She told us that if she was moved to work for a female boss she would resign as she has found that female bosses are the worst to work for and that is coming from a female.
And just another little anecdote. She was head hunted by an executive employment firm and was one of the final three. She was the first to be interviewed. The company told the firm not to send the other two as they had found the person they were looking for.
Reminiscing, I remember men being men and women being women. All the deacons were men and all the pastors were men. The leaders of the Ladies meeting were women and the women were in charge of the catering. In Sunday School, classes were divided into boys and girls. Men taught the boys and women taught the girls. The Sunday School Superintendent was a man and the Sunday School Secretary was a woman. No one complained about any of it and it proved to be very harmonious.
When the feminist movement reared its ugly head and demanded equality with men and started to get very aggressive about it, even to the point of demanding the right to murder their babies in the womb, a parallel feminist movement began in the church demanding equality in leadership. It began in the Anglican church and spread out most noticeable in the pentecostal church.
Whereas the pentecostal church had male pastors, slowly and surreptitiously Pastors Jack and Jill Jones started appearing on the notice boards as the leaders. Much later Pastor Jill started to fill the pulpit on a Sunday morning. And even later Pastor Jill Jones was the only pastor.
Now, particularly in America we have female Bishops in the Anglican Church which doesn't surprise me as they have homosexual Bishops. When you give way on one sin, the slippery slope takes over.
During all this upheaval men have moved further into the background and tend to abdicate their position of authority and leadership. At the same time the appearance of the "Jezebel" woman became obvious who did what she could to surreptitiously undermine male authority.
In the natural world when strong leadership was needed it seems to be that women stepped forward. Three notables were Golda Meir of Israel, Margaret Thatcher from the UK and Angela Merkel in Germany. I was living in the UK when Margaret Thatcher was elected to the top position and she inherited a right mess and by the time she left office Britain was buzzing again.
Despite all this, that is not the natural plan that God set out and when a man or men fall into line with the authority given to them by God, there is a natural order that benefits everyone. That is not to say every man in authority is doing a good job but it does not alter the fact that a man in submission to the will of God will always do a better job of his calling.
Just a little anecdote, my daughter who is the senior executive assistant at her place of work which means she is at the top of her tree, has worked for all sorts of bosses so she know how the cookie crumbles, She told us that if she was moved to work for a female boss she would resign as she has found that female bosses are the worst to work for and that is coming from a female.
And just another little anecdote. She was head hunted by an executive employment firm and was one of the final three. She was the first to be interviewed. The company told the firm not to send the other two as they had found the person they were looking for.
Reminiscing, I remember men being men and women being women. All the deacons were men and all the pastors were men. The leaders of the Ladies meeting were women and the women were in charge of the catering. In Sunday School, classes were divided into boys and girls. Men taught the boys and women taught the girls. The Sunday School Superintendent was a man and the Sunday School Secretary was a woman. No one complained about any of it and it proved to be very harmonious.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Galatians 3:28 does not relate to leadership in the church. It refers to salvation. Context dear lady, context.The Barrd said:
Since Oz added the term "submission" to the title of this thread, I just thought I'd mention...men and women are equal partners in the marriage bed.
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
It is classic that women are to submit unto their husbands as unto the Lord:
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
But I wonder how many men have heard the next couple of verses preached from behind the pulpit?
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Now, it seems to me that it is the husband who has the greater duty toward his wife....to love her, and nourish her, and protect her, even as the Lord loves His church.
Tell ya what...you find me a guy like that, and he'll have himself the most submissive little wife a guy could ever hope for.
The man I married came pretty darn close...but even he fell short...just a little.
He was one of the very few men I have ever known who didn't mind helping with the housework. He even did dishes for me...every now and then.
Remember...we had seven kids...
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
But I wonder how many men have heard the next couple of verses preached from behind the pulpit?
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Now, it seems to me that it is the husband who has the greater duty toward his wife....to love her, and nourish her, and protect her, even as the Lord loves His church.
Tell ya what...you find me a guy like that, and he'll have himself the most submissive little wife a guy could ever hope for.
The man I married came pretty darn close...but even he fell short...just a little.
He was one of the very few men I have ever known who didn't mind helping with the housework. He even did dishes for me...every now and then.
Remember...we had seven kids...
Oz,
Thanks. I will read through those and respond with some thoughts. Just FYI, my view is that women can "speak" and participate in various ministries in the assembly of believers. I also believe that it is quite possible that women served in the official role of deaconesses in the assembly. However, I believe that the role of elder/pastor/overseer and teaching in a large group setting is a role that was restricted for men based on the writings of Paul. This is not about ability, but roles. I look forward to exploring the texts with you after reading the material you posted.
Thanks. I will read through those and respond with some thoughts. Just FYI, my view is that women can "speak" and participate in various ministries in the assembly of believers. I also believe that it is quite possible that women served in the official role of deaconesses in the assembly. However, I believe that the role of elder/pastor/overseer and teaching in a large group setting is a role that was restricted for men based on the writings of Paul. This is not about ability, but roles. I look forward to exploring the texts with you after reading the material you posted.
I understand what you are saying, Barrd. I would just add t hat our roles are not based upon our spouse fulfilling or neglecting their responsibilities. I believe a husband should love his wife regardless of her submission (or lack thereof) and visa versa. God will hold us each to account for our role in the home, church, workplace, etc. We are to serve the Lord in whatever position we find ourselves in life. What I find fascinating is how Paul emphasizes the role of submission in the Christian life. Christians are to look for ways to submit and submit well. Whether that is a citizen to governing authorities, a worker to his boss (slave/owner), a wife to her husband, children to parents, etc. Certainly Christians who are in positions of authority should not abuse that authority but recognize the one they serve, but Paul's emphasis is submission. Christians are to submit well. We have turned it into a dirty word and egalitarians cringe at the thought of male headship in the home. However, it seems clear to me that Paul saw it as a beautiful thing and a powerful way to display the character of Christ and exhibit God-honoring faith.The Barrd said:
I think most of us miss the point that Christ, Himself, modeled perfect submission for us.Wormwood said:
Not only did He submit to the will of His Father in Heaven...
He also took on the role of a servant to His disciples.
Joh 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Perhaps we have misunderstood the role of a pastor or other authority in the church.
Luk 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
Luk 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
2000 years, and we still haven't caught on to what Jesus was trying to teach us:
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Here we are, behaving much the way the Zebedee boys behaved, arguing over who should have authority over whom...and not understanding that we are to be servants unto one another, just as Jesus made Himself a servant unto us. Instead of foolishly squabbling over "roles", I believe we should honor one anothers' talents and abilities, and encourage each other to serve in whatever capacity God has called us to serve...yes, even if that servant happens to be female.
At least, that is The Barrd's opinion...
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Again this has nothing at all to do with women teaching in the church. And I do the dishes every day.The Barrd said:
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
And this relates to salvation, not women teaching. As I said context dear lady, context.The Barrd said:
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