Headship, Submission and Women in Ministry

[Wormwood]

Dear sweetie pie, not being an elder in a church is not "oppression." "Me thinks" you need to look up that word.

Brian Regan has a funny bit about his wife wondering why he didn't know if his friend was dating. He is like, "How would that possibly come up?" "I think you should use a 7 iron on this hole......ARE YOU DATING ANYONE?!" Haha

Honey dumpling, I never said Jesus tuned all women out. I said that it's possible maybe he did to a few. I wouldn't be surprised if Martha was huffing and puffing about before Jesus finally had to chill her out. Point being, this has nothing to do with sexism. Sometimes we just tune people out when they are talking about stuff we find to be irrelevant or foolish.

Sweetie, who said anything about Jesus not being relevant? I was talking about the implication that no one understood certain Scriptures for 2,000 years until certain groups came along to decide we had it all wrong all along on various issues.

I guess it doesn't matter who Joseph was. The point was simply that apparently he thought highly of Jesus, and being that they didn't have TV or radio, it's likely that he spent some time following Jesus around and listening to him teach. Just a thought...but Scripture doesn't say, so I wouldn't demand anyone agree with me...I like to base my views on what Scripture actually says.

Pumpkin, I suppose you don't have bigots. I never implied as much. Doesn't change the fact that your ideas are dangerous. You are prone to make arguments from silence and are of the opinion that Moses, not God, wrote much of the OT...and God apparently just liked Moses enough that He gave the divine stamp of approval. Wow.

This effort of yours to continually try to paint me in a negative light to make your position sound better is tiresome. I have told you about 1,000 times that I wasn't comparing the two acts. I am comparing your constant effort to dismiss Scripture with the argument of your feelings, gifts, and pragmatism. These ideas of "God didn't actually write those Scriptures" followed by "but God told me" followed by "it is effective" followed by "it's how I feel" and finally "I know it sounds like a prohibition, but it was actually just a very specific scenario that was being objected to.." are all arguments used by a host of groups that try to embrace things clearly prohibited in Scripture....whether it be homosexuality, women elders, Universalism, materialism, and on and on and on.

Oh, and can we forgo the condescending pet names, honey bun? :)

 

[Barrd]

Dear sweetie pie, not being an elder in a church is not "oppression." "Me thinks" you need to look up that word.

Brian Regan has a funny bit about his wife wondering why he didn't know if his friend was dating. He is like, "How would that possibly come up?" "I think you should use a 7 iron on this hole......ARE YOU DATING ANYONE?!" Haha

Honey dumpling, I never said Jesus tuned all women out. I said that it's possible maybe he did to a few. I wouldn't be surprised if Martha was huffing and puffing about before Jesus finally had to chill her out. Point being, this has nothing to do with sexism. Sometimes we just tune people out when they are talking about stuff we find to be irrelevant or foolish.

Sweetie, who said anything about Jesus not being relevant? I was talking about the implication that no one understood certain Scriptures for 2,000 years until certain groups came along to decide we had it all wrong all along on various issues.

I guess it doesn't matter who Joseph was. The point was simply that apparently he thought highly of Jesus, and being that they didn't have TV or radio, it's likely that he spent some time following Jesus around and listening to him teach. Just a thought...but Scripture doesn't say, so I wouldn't demand anyone agree with me...I like to base my views on what Scripture actually says.

Pumpkin, I suppose you don't have bigots. I never implied as much. Doesn't change the fact that your ideas are dangerous. You are prone to make arguments from silence and are of the opinion that Moses, not God, wrote much of the OT...and God apparently just liked Moses enough that He gave the divine stamp of approval. Wow.

This effort of yours to continually try to paint me in a negative light to make your position sound better is tiresome. I have told you about 1,000 times that I wasn't comparing the two acts. I am comparing your constant effort to dismiss Scripture with the argument of your feelings, gifts, and pragmatism. These ideas of "God didn't actually write those Scriptures" followed by "but God told me" followed by "it is effective" followed by "it's how I feel" and finally "I know it sounds like a prohibition, but it was actually just a very specific scenario that was being objected to.." are all arguments used by a host of groups that try to embrace things clearly prohibited in Scripture....whether it be homosexuality, women elders, Universalism, materialism, and on and on and on.

Oh, and can we forgo the condescending pet names, honey bun? :)

Am I supposed to be insulted by all the Sweetie Pie, Honey Bun, Dumpling and Pumpkin names?
LOL!

WW, obviously we are not going to agree here.
I know what I believe, and why I believe it, and I am convinced that I am right.

Obviously, you are equally convinced that I'm...uh...not.

I honestly do think we ought to leave it at that.

Whatcha say, Baby Doll?

 

[StanJ]

Guess Barrd doesn't really care about God's truth in scripture, just what she thinks. Oh well, you won't get that old horse to drink WW.

I did appreciate your facetiousness, even if she didn't. :)

 

[Angelina]

I think there's a good reason why women were not to speak in church. 1 Corinthians 14:34 says;

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

compare this with...Ephesians 5:22

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

I understand that women in the O/T had their own court and were separated from men while they listened to the reading of O/T scriptures spoken by the Priest. The N/T Church in Corinth would have been a whole different thing where women were allowed to pray or prophecy which is noted in 1 Corinthians 11:4, 5, 6 in relation to head covering. IMHO the main reason why women were to keep silent in Church had to do with submission to one's own husband rather than to someone who is not their husband. JMHO :huh:

Bless ya!

 

[Wormwood]

Well, it was an enjoyable, although odd at times, conversation. :)

 

[StanJ]

I think there's a good reason why women were not to speak in church. 1 Corinthians 14:34 says;

[font=Helvetica Neue']34[/font][/SIZE][font=Helvetica Neue']Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.[/size][/font][font=Helvetica Neue'] [/size][/font][font=Helvetica Neue']35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[/font][/SIZE]

[font=Helvetica Neue']compare this with...Ephesians 5:22[/size][/font]

22 [font=Helvetica Neue']Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands[/font][font=Helvetica Neue'] as you do to the Lord.[/size][/font][/SIZE]

I understand that women in the O/T had their own court and were separated from men while they listened to the reading of O/T scriptures spoken by the Priest. The N/T Church in Corinth would have been a whole different thing where women were allowed to pray or prophecy which is noted in 1 Corinthians 11:4, 5, 6 in relation to head covering. IMHO the main reason why women were to keep silent in Church had to do with submission to one's own husband rather than to someone who is not their husband. JMHO :huh:

Bless ya!

A very widely held belief Angelina. It remained thus in Judaism until just this weekend when it was announced the wailing wall will no longer be separated by a fence for men and women. Seems it took them a lot longer than Christianity to treat women with equality even as far as worship is concerned.

 

[StanJ]

Well, it was an enjoyable, although odd at times, conversation. :)

Masochistic are you? ;)

 

[Angelina]

A very widely held belief Angelina. It remained thus in Judaism until just this weekend when it was announced the wailing wall will no longer be separated by a fence for men and women. Seems it took them a lot longer than Christianity to treat women with equality even as far as worship is concerned.

Indeed! I think the N/T church in Corinth needed some strong guidelines at the time, on how conduct services particularly since women and men seemed to be gathered together and the gifts of the Spirit were flowing in such a way that even they needed to be regulated into some form of Godly order.

Blessings!

 

[Barrd]

What a total shame that we who are Christians leave our fences up, even after Israel takes theirs down.
We shame the Lord's church with such quarreling. We bring shame on ourselves.
And then we wonder why our young people want no part of Christianity. We push them away with such nonsense as this.
If I were a young girl again in today's world, with so much opportunity before me, I would not want to tie myself to a system that insisted that I must play a submissive role.
When will people "get it"? Enforced submission is not really submission at all. It is only a step away from slavery...
Never again will I dare to cringe at the sight of a woman in a hijab...never again will I dare to criticize the way that Islam treats women when my own faith is not much better.

Seems we have a lot of work to do....

 

[StanJ]

Indeed! I think the N/T church in Corinth needed some strong guidelines at the time, on how conduct services particularly since women and men seemed to be gathered together and the gifts of the Spirit were flowing in such a way that even they needed to be regulated into some form of Godly order.

Blessings!

Exactly....I think many try to read Paul's letters without understanding the context and 'rason d'etre' for why he addressed certain issues. They sure didn't come out of a vacuum!

 

[mjrhealth]

Its funny you know, when one comes to christ, they become His Bride, a bride is feminine, so all teh males here are actually female, you see we have to be so that we can receive Gods seed, so its a conumdrum is it not, there are none male nor female in teh spirit, yet here we are the bride of Christ about to be maried to Jesus teh bridegroome.

In all His Love

 

[Angelina]

What a total shame that we who are Christians leave our fences up, even after Israel takes theirs down.
We shame the Lord's church with such quarreling. We bring shame on ourselves.
And then we wonder why our young people want no part of Christianity. We push them away with such nonsense as this.
If I were a young girl again in today's world, with so much opportunity before me, I would not want to tie myself to a system that insisted that I must play a submissive role.
When will people "get it"? Enforced submission is not really submission at all. It is only a step away from slavery...
Never again will I dare to cringe at the sight of a woman in a hijab...never again will I dare to criticize the way that Islam treats women when my own faith is not much better.

Seems we have a lot of work to do....

I'm really sorry to hear you say that Barrd because I think all Christian's play a submissive role including men. Think about whose are spiritually responsible for their household before God.

I personally do not think that women should be Elders of a Church but they can teach, they can prophecy, they can preach or pray and use their gifts both inside and outside the body of Christ. However, I believe that things must be done in an orderly fashion [within the church] with the Pastors/Leaders blessing because the Pastor/leaders are responsible before God for the things done in his church... just as the husband is responsible before God in relation to his wife and family. I think husband and wife Pastors play different roles but he would still be held accountable at the end of the day. JM2c :)

Bless you!

Bless you!

 

[Wormwood]

What a total shame that we who are Christians leave our fences up, even after Israel takes theirs down.
We shame the Lord's church with such quarreling. We bring shame on ourselves.
And then we wonder why our young people want no part of Christianity. We push them away with such nonsense as this.
If I were a young girl again in today's world, with so much opportunity before me, I would not want to tie myself to a system that insisted that I must play a submissive role.
When will people "get it"? Enforced submission is not really submission at all. It is only a step away from slavery...
Never again will I dare to cringe at the sight of a woman in a hijab...never again will I dare to criticize the way that Islam treats women when my own faith is not much better.

Seems we have a lot of work to do....

Well, most people do not want to be part of a religion that calls for humility, surrender, and taking up ones cross to follow Jesus, either. I don't think the answer is to make the cross or the Bible more palatable to a self-absorbed, hedonistic culture.

 

[Barrd]

I'm really sorry to hear you say that Barrd because I think all Christian's play a submissive role including men. Think about whose is spiritually responsible for the household before God.

I personally do not think that women should not be Elders of a Church but they can teach, they can prophecy, they can preach or pray and use their gifts both inside and outside the body of Christ. However, I believe that things must be done in an orderly fashion [within the church] with the Pastors/Leaders blessing because the Pastor/leaders are responsible before God for the things done in his/Christ's church... just as the husband is responsible before God in relation to his wife and family. I think husband and wife Pastors play different roles but he would still be held accountable at the end of the day. JM2c :)

Bless you!

Bless you!

I'm sorry that I have to say it, Angelina. Truly I am.
As I've said, the most beautiful example of submission I know of would be the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair and dried them with her tears. Jesus recognized the love in her heart. No one told her she "must submit"...she did it out of love.
And love is what it is all about. If you are "submitting" because you think there is some rule that says that you must, then you have made your submission a "work" and it is no longer about love, but about earning those brownie points.
I've had young girls ask me abut these things, Angelina. And I'm telling you, it is guff like this that is turning young people away.

And as I have said, I do not blame them. Why would a young girl in today's society purposely become a part of a system that limits her choices, after her mothers and grandmothers have fought so hard to throw off that yoke? That would be a really stupid choice, wouldn't it? I'm afraid I have to agree...yes, it would be a really dumb thing to do.

What happened to "the liberty we have in Christ"? Is that just for men?
Should we all put on hijabs, like the Muslim gals?

I'm sorry, but I'm not clinging to a rule that was intended for a specific church at a specific time. There is much too much evidence that women could and did serve in every way as our brothers in the early church.

At the end of the day, we will all be accountable to Christ. I would prefer to be found setting people...men and women alike...free from bondage.
Not putting them back in chains...

 

[Barrd]

Well, most people do not want to be part of a religion that calls for humility, surrender, and taking up ones cross to follow Jesus, either. I don't think the answer is to make the cross or the Bible more palatable to a self-absorbed, hedonistic culture.

That would actually sound a lot better, if it were addressed to both sexes.

 

[Wormwood]

It is, Barrd. And we are called to live out such obedience and submission to Christ in different ways. Last I checked, no Christian church I ever attended segregated men and women...so I dont know how you think the Church is behind Israel in relation to their worship at the wailing wall. You are overstating your case. No one has ever argued for segregation or that women had no value or were not able to use their gifts. Again, you are doing the whole, "If I cant have everything, then you are saying I can have nothing." That is not what anyone has argued here. I will never be able to have a baby. I will never be able to feel a life grow within me and give birth to another human being. That does not mean that I am less than a woman because God has made it such that I cannot do this. It is not my role. It is not God's design. God has a design for things and He has made it clear to us in the Scriptures. If you reject the Scriptures as authoritative, and continue to argue that Moses, not God, came up with the Pentateuch, then I think you are in a very dangerous place and you should really find a strong, Bible-believing church that can help you grow in your faith and knowledge of the Lord and his Word.

 

[tom55]

Tom, we are obviously not going to come to any kind of a meeting of the minds on this.
Given that the RCC has been one of the very worst for oppressing women throughout the ages, I already know that any conversation between you and I on this issue is bound to be unprofitable.

Suffice it to say...if I believed as you do, I would be a Catholic...and my family would have been torn apart.
I thank God that He has made me as I am.

If we can not agree on a simple fact such as what an "Orant" is and how it relates to the Catacombs of Priscilla then I agree with you; We will not come to a "meeting of the minds on this". YOU have what you believe and then there are the FACTS. What you are choosing to falsely believe is that there were women priest/priestesses/elders/leaders of churches. You have twisted scripture, history and the description of art to fit YOUR beliefs.

The RCC is "the very worst for oppressing women"? The RCC emulates woman (http://www.catholic.org/saints/female.php?page=2) and holds Mary in much higher regard than YOU do. I am not sure how you can backup your NONFACTUAL statement?

If me quoting FACTS about Christian History, art and what the Catholic Church believes makes me Catholic then I suppose anyone on this website who quotes FACTS about the Catholic Church is Catholic.

 

[Angelina]

I'm sorry that I have to say it, Angelina. Truly I am.
As I've said, the most beautiful example of submission I know of would be the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair and dried them with her tears. Jesus recognized the love in her heart. No one told her she "must submit"...she did it out of love.
And love is what it is all about. If you are "submitting" because you think there is some rule that says that you must, then you have made your submission a "work" and it is no longer about love, but about earning those brownie points.
I've had young girls ask me abut these things, Angelina. And I'm telling you, it is guff like this that is turning young people away.

And as I have said, I do not blame them. Why would a young girl in today's society purposely become a part of a system that limits her choices, after her mothers and grandmothers have fought so hard to throw off that yoke? That would be a really stupid choice, wouldn't it? I'm afraid I have to agree...yes, it would be a really dumb thing to do.

What happened to "the liberty we have in Christ"? Is that just for men?
Should we all put on hijabs, like the Muslim gals?

I'm sorry, but I'm not clinging to a rule that was intended for a specific church at a specific time. There is much too much evidence that women could and did serve in every way as our brothers in the early church.

At the end of the day, we will all be accountable to Christ. I would prefer to be found setting people...men and women alike...free from bondage.
Not putting them back in chains...

Thanks for your reply,
I believe that the foundation of every Church should be based on love. Love for God and love for others [our neighbor]. The N/T church, [like every other community] needed guidelines or a modus operandi to function because people were being saved and Churches were being established and increasing in numbers rapidly.

Barrd, I believe when you submit yourself to those in authority over you because you have chosen to be a member of that particular Church or if you are a wife or if you are still under your parents control, you are doing the will of God and you are expressing love toward them.

The liberty we have in Christ comes from being free from the Law of sin and death. What has muslim women wearing hijabs got to do with Christianity? :huh: Please clarify your position? Are you a feminist?

 

[Barrd]

Thanks for your reply,
I believe that the foundation of every Church should be based on love. Love for God and love for others [our neighbor].

Well, we agree that it ought to be about love, anyway.

The N/T church, [like every other community] needed guidelines or a modus operandi to function because people were being saved and Churches were being established and increasing in numbers rapidly.

And you don't think Jesus had already given the Apostles guidelines, or a modus operandi?
Hey, here is another of Paul's rules on how to run the church:

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Eph 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

"Servants" here means "slaves"...or, "bond servants".

Barrd, I believe when you submit yourself to those in authority over you because you have chosen to be a member of that particular Church or if you are a wife or if you are still under your parents control, you are doing the will of God and you are expressing love toward them.

And I believe that submission must be from the heart and not forced. Enforced submission is for small children, who need parental guidance, or for slaves.
Now, when I went home to visit my Mom several years ago...I was 50 years old at the time...she was a bit senile, and insisted that I be in bed by nine. I obeyed her, because I love her...but that was my choice.
In other words, I do understand what submission is.

The liberty we have in Christ comes from being free from the Law of sin and death.

Yeah, good. And it belongs to both men and women. Did you not know, then, that in Christ, the old barriers have been removed? There is no more Jew or Gentile, there is no more slave or free....and Angelina...there is no more male or female.

What has muslim women wearing hijabs got to do with Christianity?

What? Do you mean that you do not cover your hair, Angelina?

1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

If you're not going to cover your head, then you need to shave it. That's the "modus operandi".

Here's an interesting little tidbit:

1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

:huh: Please clarify your position? Are you a feminist?

Do you mean, am I one of those crazy females who dare to say that women ought to have the right to vote, get an education, work in the career of their choice...even...brace yourself, Angelina...even be paid the same as men?

I'm afraid so...

So call me a feminist. Hey, I've been called "Pumpkin"...and I survived the experience.
I can take "feminist" in my stride...

 

[Wormwood]

Barrd,

To be clear, Angelina, no one was arguing that women shouldn't be able to get an education, work, vote, or get paid the same as men...and this was clarified that so many times that I can only take such comments as intentionally misleading. The longer this conversation has gone on, the more concerning it gets regarding the tactics and doctrinal arguments Barrd has been welling to make in her efforts to validate her position that women should serve as teaching & preaching elders in the local church.