Hell Center of the Earth?

[amadeus]

I started at the beginning of a human life as that is a proper place to start when talking about a human from birth to death. Birth starts at conception because God is in the whole process since it is God’s process and not the work of physical creation alone.

But does the new birth, the rebirth, the born again or born from above experience always coincide with natural conception in a woman's womb or with natural child birth?

 

[amadeus]

The old man is blasphemous and cannot enter it. The old man unforgiven in this life (age)and the next: condemned and perishing without. Saul was blasphemous but did it in unbelief yes...it was Paul who entered in by grace. To say whatsoever born of God is capable of being blasphemous, is to say God is and is capable of being blasphemous when God does not lie. Man lies. That born of the Spirit does not lie, That born after the flesh lies, deceives, kills, and destroys. 1 John 3:9 KJV
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin(does not blasphemy); for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,(blasphemy) because he is born of God. (And God is not blasphemous).

Paul remained no more in unbelief being blasphemous and persecuting the Lord but instead (only through grace) is blasphemy be forgiven. His seed is not blasphemous, but instead
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Doesn’t mean(IMO) the incorruptible seed is the only seed which can be blasphemous ...but instead (through grace) is the only seed forgive of “the former things of the flesh and the list of it”.

Amadeus, if God is within us, He who is greater than he who is in the word...is He who is greater blasphemous?

I am seeing from you and others here that part of the problem is what the word "blasphemous" means generally. As you have shown it can be done by others beside believers, but for an unbeliever is not unforgiveable by God. Probably before I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1976 during my life I had at times blasphemed God in that sense.. but it was never an unforgiveable sin because I was still allowed to repent...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am seeing from you and others here that part of the problem is what the word "blasphemous" means generally. As you have shown it can be done by others beside believers, but for an unbeliever is not unforgiveable by God. Probably before I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1976 during my life I had at times blasphemed God in that sense.. but it was never an unforgiveable sin because I was still allowed to repent...

I’m not suggesting it is unforgivable but only unforgivable in the natural man remaining in unbelief. If Saul would have remained natural, never born of the Spirit of God. As the example of Saul and Paul. As the example of the old man and the New Man. Maybe I am still not understanding you because what it seems you are saying is that when the word says walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That this walking in the Spirit is capable of blasphemy? Have I misunderstood? As He said “I will be in them and walk in them”. You keep referencing the natural man and the carnal as if they are the Spirit and therefore the Spirit can fail or come short of the end. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Get the “babes in Christ” but also see “and walk as men”...urging to and out from “and walk as men” “hereto not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.” So, I don’t understand how “babes in Christ” not able to bear and still unable; becomes that born of the Spirit of God is capable of blasphemy? When the Spirit
1 Corinthians 13:7-8 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Even Christ told them He had many things to tell them but they were not yet able to bear it. John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

 

[amadeus]

There is no such thing as a good “natural” parent, for the natural parent drives its children into the world not delivers them out and from it.

Well as Jesus put it:

"...Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

In that ultimate sense in which Jesus spoke, there is no good naturally born person... until...

Until a person starts to become like God! Then in a measure, is he not good to extent that God is him and in control?

We can speak of 'good' Christian parents and see where some of their children walk that pathway while others go deep into the world never to return. So then back to Solomon:

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

Lots of 'good' Christian parents fail to do this as well as they could or should and the children walk in another way.

Consider perhaps one of the best of the "good" kings of Judah:

"Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.
And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left." II Kings 22:1-2

"And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him." II Kings 23:25

But when Josiah died then see his son after him:

"And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him in his own sepulchre. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's stead.

And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD..." II Kings 23:30,32

Josiah as good a king as he was failed to "train up" his son, Jehoahaz "in the way he should go". So then in spite of his own 'goodness' his own son went also as you @VictoryinJesus have said it. Help us dear Lord!

 

[Joseph77]

Even Christ told them He had many things to tell them but they were not yet able to bear it.

So much is untaught, unknown, in so many ,
as
Bible says: For Lack of (experiential and true)(Knowledge ( MY! people perish ) , and it is so....

 

[amadeus]

I’m not suggesting it is unforgivable but only unforgivable in the natural man remaining in unbelief. If Saul would have remained natural, never born of the Spirit of God. As the example of Saul and Paul. As the example of the old man and the New Man. Maybe I am still not understanding you because what it seems you are saying is that when the word says walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That this walking in the Spirit is capable of blasphemy? Have I misunderstood? As He said “I will be in them and walk in them”. You keep referencing the natural man and the carnal as if they are the Spirit and therefore the Spirit can fail or come short of the end. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Get the “babes in Christ” but also see “and walk as men”...urging to and out from “and walk as men” “hereto not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.” So, I don’t understand how “babes in Christ” not able to bear and still unable; becomes that born of the Spirit of God is capable of blasphemy? When the Spirit
1 Corinthians 13:7-8 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Even Christ told them He had many things to tell them but they were not yet able to bear it. John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Twins, Esau and Jacob, struggling in the womb of Rebekah... even so it is within each of us who has now the 'new man' within struggling for the mastery against the 'old man'. When we walking "in the Spirit" the new man is in control and we do not sin. When we choose the way of the old man we walk 'out' of the Spirit and into sin. Each time that this happens is not an unforgiveable by God occurrence. But... like with the 600,000 less Caleb and Joshua in the wilderness, there is a limit to how many times God will allow us to return from our sinful ways back into His fold.

What is needed is for the new man in us to finally kill the old man in us... When and if this is done then the temptation will be gone. Jesus did this and really when we read the scripture, we see [at least I do] that it is possible for us to do the same thing by the power of God within us. This is why Apostle Paul admonishes to Not quench the Holy Spirit!

 

[Joseph77]

I don't know for certainty, but wasn't it for rebelling TEN TIMES....

like with the 600,000 less Caleb and Joshua in the wilderness, there is a limit to how many times God will allow us to return from our sinful ways back into His fold.

 

[amadeus]

I don't know for certainty, but wasn't it for rebelling TEN TIMES....

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it" Num 14:22-23

 

[OzSpen]

Easy.


For an example today, just close your eyes after making proper preparations, with a roaring fire in the furnace or fire place,
and throw a paper towel or wadded up piece of paper in to the flames ....

At that point it no longer is a place of darkness in your analogy. For God, hell is a place of flames AND darkness. How come?

Oz

 

[Joseph77]

He Says So.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe the hottest in this world is violet in color. I'm sure black fire can exist. Especially in the absense of God.

Mayflower,

Another option is that the Lord was using metaphorical language and that there is no actual fire and actual darkness in Hades.

I believe in Hades/Hell but I'm not convinced it is a literal fire of punishment. See my article, Is there literal fire in hell?

Oz

 

[Waiting on him]

So where do you think Heaven is?

Heaven is where ever God is

 

[Waiting on him]

Definitely in the spiritual realm. I just don't think I can conclude that part of Sheol is the center of the earth. Interesting though!!!

Hell by definition would be alienation from God, don't you remember being there?

 

[Waiting on him]

I believe it exists in the spiritual realm.

Maybe the lack of His Spirit realm?

 

[Waiting on him]

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it" Num 14:22-23

But their offspring did.

 

[Waiting on him]

At that point it no longer is a place of darkness in your analogy. For God, hell is a place of flames AND darkness. How come?

Oz

There appears to be a solar cycle there.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jude 1:23 KJV
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

Or hell can be where God says it is, under the earth. We are on top of the earth, and heaven is above us.

A nice 3 layer cake.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Twins, Esau and Jacob, struggling in the womb of Rebekah... even so it is within each of us who has now the 'new man' within struggling for the mastery against the 'old man'. When we walking "in the Spirit" the new man is in control and we do not sin. When we choose the way of the old man we walk 'out' of the Spirit and into sin. Each time that this happens is not an unforgiveable by God occurrence. But... like with the 600,000 less Caleb and Joshua in the wilderness, there is a limit to how many times God will allow us to return from our sinful ways back into His fold.

What is needed is for the new man in us to finally kill the old man in us... When and if this is done then the temptation will be gone. Jesus did this and really when we read the scripture, we see [at least I do] that it is possible for us to do the same thing by the power of God within us. This is why Apostle Paul admonishes to Not quench the Holy Spirit!

I don’t know. Should have not gone here again. Wish I could understand what you are saying Amadeus, that it would click but it doesn’t. It matters to me because some days it feels as if the flesh is so strong, it wins. Yet God says the flesh is weak. So I ask you like I asked the other member in saying the victory can be lost. “Not if Christ is within. Since Greater is He and nothing can take away a garment which waxes not old nor consumed. None stronger can overcome and take the Armour Of God but instead His Armour remains and endures in His peace(not as the world gives), as He said “put on you the whole Armour Of God”.
Which Acts 5:38-39 Is pretty clear on: “And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

If you be found even to fight against God...Who has the Victory?”

Who has the Victory? Who is the Greater within if not God? It is not us. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don’t know. Should have not gone here again. Wish I could understand what you are saying Amadeus, that it would click but it doesn’t. It matters to me because some days it feels as if the flesh is so strong, it wins. Yet God says the flesh is weak. So I ask you like I asked the other member in saying the victory can be lost. “Not if Christ is within. Since Greater is He and nothing can take away a garment which waxes not old nor consumed. None stronger can overcome and take the Armour Of God but instead His Armour remains and endures in His peace(not as the world gives), as He said “put on you the whole Armour Of God”.
Which Acts 5:38-39 Is pretty clear on: “And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

If you be found even to fight against God...Who has the Victory?”

Who has the Victory? Who is the Greater within if not God? It is not us. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Despite how much lipstick you put on a pig too pretty it up,,, it's still a pig