You know, let's approach this from a different standpoint.
For you to assert this you must establish that being in the presence of God in an unredeemed state is terrible. Please do establish this.
Hell Is God's Mercy
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You know, let's approach this from a different standpoint.
For you to assert this you must establish that being in the presence of God in an unredeemed state is terrible. Please do establish this.
Selene
New Member
I think what Aspen means is that when a person does not choose Heaven, then it would be torture to be in God's presence since that is not what he wanted in the first place. In my retreat, we learned that the existance of Hell is God's love. God loves everyone that He will not force anyone to be in Heaven if they don't want to be there. God is true love. He is not an oppressive love. He will not force anyone to go to Heaven if they choose to prefer Hell.
Selene
New Member
Hello Duckybill,
I think you misunderstood what I said. The existance of Hell shows God's love because God does not force anyone to go to Heaven. There will be people who reject God and Heaven, and God is not going to force them to go into a place they don't want to be. So, they will be in Hell simply because they chose to be there, and God values the free will of all His creatures. That is what love is all about. If you really love someone, you will let the person go even if you know that where that person is going will not benefit him/her at all. A person who loves never uses force. They allow the person to choose Heaven or Hell. That is one of the things I learned in my last retreat.
In Christ,
Selene
-- You have nothing to base that opinion on. No Thing.
Fact - Including Matt 25 - shows you to be wrong.
Now if you had something - anything - other than your opinion to back up your claim...
-- Again, based on what?
Who exactly is making this claim and what facts support this claim?
The very description of what hell will be for ALL who end up there strongly refutes that claim, no matter who made it.
Thanks for explaining, but I strongly disagree. When the lost get to Hell they won't want to be there.
So they CHOSE Hell?
Why do you suppose Revelation uses the words "Cast into the lake of fire" instead of "They voluntarily went into the lake of fire"?
Why do you suppose the rich man that ended up in Hades (Luke 16), specifically asked for MERCY if he already had it?
I'm sorry but that just stinks of blind loyalty and sheer ignorance. I'm sure the same could be said of Koresh or Jones' followers, "today we learned we can go to Heaven by drinking this cool-aide".
Why do you suppose Revelation uses the words "Cast into the lake of fire" instead of "They voluntarily went into the lake of fire"?
Why do you suppose the rich man that ended up in Hades (Luke 16), specifically asked for MERCY if he already had it?
"We learned" from a man...
I'm sorry but that just stinks of blind loyalty and sheer ignorance. I'm sure the same could be said of Koresh or Jones' followers, "today we learned we can go to Heaven by drinking this cool-aide".
I have an observation. My question is can someone show me the transition from Gen 2:17 the day you eat of it you will surly die. To the popular view that you will be tormented for ever.
To begin with, there are actually three different Greek words that are translated "Hell" in our English New Testaments. It's important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are "Tartarus," "Gehenna," and "Hades." Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Scripture says,
God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4, KJV).
And a few other verses that indicate death
Rom 6:23
Rom 5:12
James 1:15
Mt 10:28 ...............this one indicates that God can and will destroy souls "Words of Jesus as well"
James 4:12
1Cor 15:22
John 8:21
John 8:24
John 8:52
Just when and how did the church come to the conclusion God will torment the lost forever?
To begin with, there are actually three different Greek words that are translated "Hell" in our English New Testaments. It's important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are "Tartarus," "Gehenna," and "Hades." Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Scripture says,
God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4, KJV).
And a few other verses that indicate death
Rom 6:23
Rom 5:12
James 1:15
Mt 10:28 ...............this one indicates that God can and will destroy souls "Words of Jesus as well"
James 4:12
1Cor 15:22
John 8:21
John 8:24
John 8:52
Just when and how did the church come to the conclusion God will torment the lost forever?
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt. 25:41
-- Tell me bud, where does it say - even imply - "but only for awhile."
-- Tell me bud, where does it say - even imply - "but only for awhile."
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
I have provided 9 examples of death for men not counting Gen 2 The OT has plenty of references to death as well
This author has a very good teaching on the topic. On the surface don't you think tormenting people forever is a bit outside Gods character?
Eternal fire is just what consumed sodom and gomorrah a fire that completely eternally destroys Matthew 10:28
· Death Discussions Part 7: The Hot Topic of Hell
· Death Discussions Part 8: The Hot Topic of Hell
· Death Discussions Part 9: The Hot Topic of Hell
· Death Discussions Part 10: The Hot Topic of Hell
· Death Discussions Part 11: The Hot Topic of Hell
· Death Discussions Part 12: The Hot Topic of Hell
· Death Discussions Part 13: The Hot Topic of Hell
Like I asked, show me where God went from you will surly die to being tormented forever If you don't want to read the links.
So then what do we do with all the verses that say death? Ignore them? pretend they don't exists? The fact is torment forever was given by the universal church and after the reformation many continued the erroneous teaching.
Now someone is right and someone is wrong, you can't have both death and eternal torment. Unless of course you adopt the ignore certain verses method of theology. And of course the universal church tells us sola scripture is to error, and universal tradition is the true word of God. So you figure it out, I'm simply drawing attention to the problem. Judging from your post you have already made a choice without hearing the rest of the story. Proverbs 18:17
Or, I dunno, they got it from the Bible. What, exactly, do you think "eternal" means?
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Death is simply an expression. We are described as spiritually dead (non-believers are) in the HERE and NOW and we aren't literally dead.
The point is the the kind of death being described is something not desired. Dead to a non believer is to cease living under the common grace of God here on this earth and begin living in the place where grace is entirely removed.
Then why does Jesus say this? Matthew 10:28
I'll ask you to simply look at the tread topic. Hell is Gods Mercy
Can you provide me one verse that indicates Gods mercy as being hell?
On the contrary every time God speaks of His mercy He is speaking of eternal life not death.
-- Wouldn't it be easier for you to provide a scripture that refutes what Matt 25:41 says?
A quick perusal of those links doesn't give any indication of Biblical evidence.
I gave you 10
To begin with, I believe there is a Hell, that there is a fiery Hell, and that the Bible is true – literally. So don’t worry about this. I’m not a liberal, or a heretic. Yet as we plunge into this controversial topic, my conclusions may shock you. So prepare yourself. As always, I encourage you to pick up a Bible and look up the texts. As you are about to see, what many think about Hell isn’t always exactly what God’s Word really says.
There are three different Greek words that are translated as “Hell” in our English New Testaments. It’s important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are “Tartarus,” “Gehenna,” and “Hades.” Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Scripture says,
God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4, KJV).
This verse says that “the angels that sinned” (which would include Lucifer, too) have already been cast down “to hell” by God Himself. Yet they aren’t roasting right now, obviously, and they certainly aren’t suffering somewhere far beneath Los Angeles or Tokyo. Tartarus means “dark abyss” or “place of restraint.” It isn’t a place of punishment either. Look carefully. 2 Peter 2:4 says Satan’s angels are “reserved unto judgment,” which means their punishment is yet future. For Lucifer and his diabolical demons, the fire hasn’t started yet. So much for Tartarus.
Next word: “Gehenna.” All authorities admit this word is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky valley of Hinnom just south of Jerusalem where trash, filth, and the bodies of dead animals were burned up in Bible days. Jesus Christ spoke about Gehenna many times such as in Matthew 5:22, 29 & 30 where He warned about “the danger of hell [Gehenna] fire” (Matthew 5:22). Gehenna definitely suggests real flames. But a key question is: when will this fire burn? In Matthew 13:40-42, in His explanation to His disciples about His parable concerning plants, reapers and a harvest, Jesus provided this definite answer:
The harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear(Matthew 13:40-42, italics added).
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” As to when the fire burns, what should we hear? Christ’s direct answer is, “at the end of this world” (verse 40). Amazingly, Peter taught the same thing when he wrote:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).
Peter’s words may seem radical, but they are the truth of God. By analyzing carefully 2 Peter 3:7, we discover:
- A real fire is coming.
- It will burn “the heavens,” which means the polluted atmosphere we breathe.
- It will burn “the earth,” which means the ground we walk on.
- These flames will blaze on “the day of judgment.”
- “ungodly men” will end up in this fire.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night; in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).
This passage is crystal clear: At some point in the future the sky above us and the earth beneath will literally catch fire and “melt with fervent heat.” So if you’ve been taught that the sum total of hell-fire is some smoky place beneath the ground, think again. The Bible says our entire sin-polluted planet is destined for the flames. Peter concluded with this comforting assurance:
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:13).
According to these power-packed verses, God will use fire to cleanse planet Earth of its wickedness, then He will marvelously recreate it entirely. This is His “promise” which “we” should be looking forward to.
The book of Revelation teaches the same message about a future Judgment Day, followed by cleansing fire, followed by a new heaven and earth. Again, look carefully. After every lost soul is “judged… according to their works” (Revelation 20:13), then,
Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away… And he that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new” (Revelation 20:15; 21:1, 5).
Here’s the inspired sequence:
- Judgment Day
- The Lake of Fire
- A New Heaven and Earth
One frightening thought is that “all liars” will eventually wind up “in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8). This should impress us with the importance of knowing and speaking the truth.
We need the truth about Hell.
Above all, we need the truth about Jesus Christ, His love, and His death, burial, and resurrection in our behalf.
May we be washed from our sins by the blood of the Lamb so we can be assured of a place in God’s recreated earth.
In Part 7 we saw that there are three different Greek words translated “Hell” in our English New Testaments: “Tartarus,” “Gehenna,” and “Hades.” “Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames. That comes later. Satan and his hosts will reap their reward in due time.
“Gehenna” is used many times in the New Testament, such as in Matthew 5:22, 29, and 30, and refers to a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment. In Part 7 we discovered that Jesus Christ clearly pinpointed the time of this fire as being at “the end of this world” (Matthew 13:40) and that Peter identified the place of this fire as being “the heavens and the earth which are now” (2 Peter 3:7). On Earth’s last day, “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10). In other words, earth itself is destined for flames. Then God will create “new heavens and a new earth, wherein righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13; see also Revelation 21:1). We shall discuss the duration of this fire in the next article.
Now for “Hades.” This Greek word is also translated “Hell” in many English Bibles, such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death, and Hell [Hades].” It does this same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles leave the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here’s a key point: in Revelation 20:14 “Hades” (“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” Thus “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire.”
Here is Revelation 20:14 in both the KJV and NIV:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14, King James Version, italics added)
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, New International Version, italics added)
In my personal King James Version, which I often preach from, there is a marginal reference beside the word “Hell” (Hades) listed in Revelation 20:13 and 14. It says “Hell” literally means “the grave.” Thus Revelation 20:14 could properly be translated, “death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.” This makes sense. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, New International Version, italics added)
To make it simple, “Hades” literally means “the grave.” This is easy to prove from 1 Corinthians 15:55, which in the King James Version states,
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1 Corinthians 15:55, KJV, italics added)
If you look in any Strong’s Concordance, you’ll discover that the original Greek word here translated “grave” is “Hades.” By looking at the context, it’s obvious that “Hades” means “the grave” because it is God’s saints who rise out of “Hades” when Jesus Christ returns. See for yourself:O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1 Corinthians 15:55, KJV, italics added)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up on victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave [Hades] where is your victory? (1 Corinthians 15:51-55, King James Version, italics added)
“O grave [Hades] where is your victory?” the redeemed triumphantly shout. Thus “Hades” here cannot mean a place of burning, for who can imagine God’s people writhing in flames as they await the resurrection? Impossible!
Additional proof that “Hades” means “the grave” is the fact that “Hades” was the place Jesus Christ’s body rested in immediately after His death. In Acts 2:31, the King James Version declares,
His [Christ’s] soul was not left in hell [Hades] neither [did] his flesh see corruption (Acts 2:31, KJV, italics added).
The New International Version translates Acts 2:31 as,
He was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay (Acts 2:31, NIV, italics added)
Thus Christ’s “body” (NIV) or “flesh” (KJV) was not allowed to see “corruption” (KJV) or “decay” (NIV) because it remained in the grave only a short time before He rose. This should be plain to any unprejudiced mind.
To summarize the meaning of the three Greek words translated “Hell” in our English Bibles:
- “Tartarus” means “a place of darkness or restraint” (2 Peter 2:4). Satan abides there now.
- “Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). Jesus Christ’s body rested there, and His saints rest there now awaiting the resurrection.
- “Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, described in Matthew 13:40-42, 2 Peter 3:7, 10-12). These flames are yet future, at the end of the world.
Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).
Will “the lake of fire” burn forever? Or will its unfortunate inhabitants – including Satan and his demons – finally burn up, and thus cease to exist? What does the Bible really say?
You will find out in Part 9 of The Hot Topic of Hell.
The word apolumi means "ruin" or "lose" or "perish" or "get rid of". It is not elimination but eternal destruction (destruction lasting eternally).
Also, bud, if you can't formulate your own opinions I won't be discussing anything farther with you unless you can articulate your own arguments verses a copy and paste job from http://www.thetruthabouthell.org/
Bud you seem to think that volume replaces validity.
I read through your post twice in case I just missed it and there is nothing there that points to being sentence to hell as a specific term short of for all time.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt. 25:41
I read through your post twice in case I just missed it and there is nothing there that points to being sentence to hell as a specific term short of for all time.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt. 25:41
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