Hell Is God's Mercy

[Duckybill]

It seems to be quite popular to try to translate Hell out of God's Word. Even if you 'remove' it punishment in the fire is still there several times. I have to wonder about the motives of those who are trying to remove the eternal Hell from our Bibles.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
[sup]49 [/sup]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [sup]50 [/sup]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

 

[bud02]

Bud you seem to think that volume replaces validity.

I read through your post twice in case I just missed it and there is nothing there that points to being sentence to hell as a specific term short of for all time.


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt. 25:41

Your looking for a particular phrase quote; that points to being sentence to hell as a specific term short of for all time.
like I said I gave you 10 that indicate death not eternal suffering. So far you have one verse that contradicts my 10.

[font="helvetica][size="2"]The word apolumi means "ruin" or "lose" or "perish" or "get rid of". It is not elimination but eternal destruction (destruction lasting eternally).[/size][/font]
[font="helvetica] [/font][/color]

Also, bud, if you can't formulate your own opinions I won't be discussing anything farther with you unless you can articulate your own arguments verses a copy and paste job from [url="http://www.thetruthabouthell.org/"]http://www.thetruthabouthell.org/[/url]

Its a time consuming proses and as I suspected as it usually is, nobody cares to elaluate their personal understanding or rather what they have been taught and simply accept without question.

So I'm not going to waste my time writing the very same thing that can be accomplished with a C/P. I've said my piece and you have said yours, so there is really nothing more to discuss is there?
Is it a salvation breaker? or will it cause you to not enter into Gods rest? I doubt it, but it will IMO prevent you from understanding the full counsel of God.

Acts 20
[sup]25[/sup] “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. [sup]26[/sup] Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. [sup]27[/sup] For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. [sup]28[/sup] Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[sup][c][/sup] which He purchased with His own blood. [sup]29[/sup] For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. [sup]30[/sup] Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. [sup]31[/sup] Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Hell is Gods Mercy
For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. [sup]30[/sup] Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

 

[TexUs]

Pot calling the kettle black considering you accuse us of "accepting blindly" what we've been told when you're the one that cannot articulate their own argument and copies and pastes from someone else's writings.

So far you have one verse that contradicts my 10.

And this right here is a problem. Again, as Foreigner said, you seem to be placing more weight on volume than validity.

If even ONE verse contradicts your ten (you just admitted it does) then it calls into question all of your ten until they can be reconciled or your understanding of them changes.





Edit- for your view to support hell being only temporary you must also establish:
1) Not all spirits are created eternal- some are created eternal and some aren't. (Good luck with that one). Considering you're also a free will advocate and you don't believe God can ordain 100% who is going where, this is a huge freaking, serious problem for your theology. God wouldn't know who to create eternal and who not to.
2) If hell is only temporary but the spirits are all eternal- this requires at some point the souls to leave hell. Good luck trying to establish this one, too.
3) If hell is only temporary, but the spirits are all eternal- this means #2, but it also means the souls then go somewhere else. Either they go to some place other than heaven or they go to heaven. Establish how a soul once in hell can move into heaven when Abraham says a chasm is fixed that can't be crossed. Good luck with this one.

 

[Foreigner]

"like I said I gave you 10 that indicate death not eternal suffering. So far you have one verse that contradicts my 10." - Bud



-- That's your problem. None of those 10 verses show in any way, shape, form, or style that those sentenced to hell by God will ever be given a chance to leave. Ever.


But thank you for admitting that the verse I provided truly supports what I said.


Why not pick just one verse you provided and show the exact spot in that verse that shows that once a person is sentenced to hell, there is a chance they will be leaving it.

Just one would be nice.

 

[TexUs]

It seems to be quite popular to try to translate Hell out of God's Word. Even if you 'remove' it punishment in the fire is still there several times. I have to wonder about the motives of those who are trying to remove the eternal Hell from our Bibles.

It kills God's glory is what it does. Glory cannot be understood without understanding of his wrath.

If Adam and Eve would have truly known what consequences their actions would have taken, I bet you they would have eaten the apple from ANOTHER tree that day.
If the people of Noah's day would have really known what terror God would unleash on them, I'm betting Noah would've been taken more seriously.
If the people of our day would really have known what wrath of God is in store for them I would bet the world today would look vastly different.

To take away Hell diminishes God's glory. Where is God's glory manifest but in the promise for his believers... The end-be-all result being the New Heavens and New Earth. To take away from Hell directly takes away from the coming Heaven as well. As we see in Revelation the judgement and wrath of God is also understood to be linked to his all time plan as well.

If our spirits are eternal in Heaven there is no reason to assume they are not eternal in hell: especially when the Bible speaks to it.

I'm not sure if any of you have read the "23 minutes in hell" book. I know it's not Scriptural and it might not be Godly at all. However, in there is a vision the man had of hell. The person was running around and screaming, because they were on fire. The fire never would go out, it burned their body until it was nothing but ash. Then the body was "rebuilt" so to speak- caught on fire again, and it was just an endless cycle of DEATH. As well as PUNISHMENT. This is why hell can be both death and punishment at the same time. It's the experience of dying an excruciating death- for all eternity.

 

[aspen]

Try putting your hand in fire for a minute and then tell us if it felt like mercy.

I never said Hell would feel like mercy.

You know, let's approach this from a different standpoint.

For you to assert this you must establish that being in the presence of God in an unredeemed state is terrible. Please do establish this.

No.

You need to re-read my opening post. I am not going to restate everything I have already said so you can pick it apart line by line. You have already made it clear that you are capable of disproving any idea that is outside your personal exegesis.

I think what Aspen means is that when a person does not choose Heaven, then it would be torture to be in God's presence since that is not what he wanted in the first place. In my retreat, we learned that the existance of Hell is God's love. God loves everyone that He will not force anyone to be in Heaven if they don't want to be there. God is true love. He is not an oppressive love. He will not force anyone to go to Heaven if they choose to prefer Hell.

Hi Selene - I am even going farther.

I believe people are not healthy enough for Heaven if they are unredeemed. They are going to long for Heaven when they are in Hell, but it will be their own personal version of Heaven - not the real place. They will feel cheated out of salvation and they will feel like they are the only person they can trust. They will be radically individual and radically prideful. Most importantly, they will be completely incapable of taking personal responsibility for their action because they will be incapable of knowing themselves - just like Jesus will not know them.

I have an observation. My question is can someone show me the transition from Gen 2:17 the day you eat of it you will surly die. To the popular view that you will be tormented for ever.

To begin with, there are actually three different Greek words that are translated "Hell" in our English New Testaments. It's important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are "Tartarus," "Gehenna," and "Hades." Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4. The Scripture says,

God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4, KJV).


And a few other verses that indicate death
Rom 6:23
Rom 5:12
James 1:15
Mt 10:28 ...............this one indicates that God can and will destroy souls "Words of Jesus as well"
James 4:12
1Cor 15:22
John 8:21
John 8:24
John 8:52


Just when and how did the church come to the conclusion God will torment the lost forever?

Being cut off from the Body of Christ is spiritual death

There will be BILLIONS in Hell for eternity who will disagree, strongly.

I totally agree! But citizens of Hell will be wrong about a lot of things.

-- You have nothing to base that opinion on. No Thing.

Fact - Including Matt 25 - shows you to be wrong.

Now if you had something - anything - other than your opinion to back up your claim...





-- Again, based on what?
Who exactly is making this claim and what facts support this claim?
The very description of what hell will be for ALL who end up there strongly refutes that claim, no matter who made it.

Are you kidding?

The Nature of God is my proof. God is Good.

It seems to be quite popular to try to translate Hell out of God's Word. Even if you 'remove' it punishment in the fire is still there several times. I have to wonder about the motives of those who are trying to remove the eternal Hell from our Bibles.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
[sup]49 [/sup]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [sup]50 [/sup]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

If I didn't believe Hell existed, I would say so.

Pot calling the kettle black

Since when is this ever been a valid reasoning? You can both be wrong.....

 

[bud02]

"like I said I gave you 10 that indicate death not eternal suffering. So far you have one verse that contradicts my 10." - Bud



-- That's your problem. None of those 10 verses show in any way, shape, form, or style that those sentenced to hell by God will ever be given a chance to leave. Ever.


But thank you for admitting that the verse I provided truly supports what I said.


Why not pick just one verse you provided and show the exact spot in that verse that shows that once a person is sentenced to hell, there is a chance they will be leaving it.

Just one would be nice.

LOL I'm glad you think so. Its a kin to taking 11 marbles 10 blue and 1 green. The being asked to select the marbles that best represent the majority and you pick the single green marble. That's a great theological teaching tool.

Thats no different than taking Matthew 16:18 and building a church and infoul-able priest hood on it.

 

[Duckybill]

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the EVERLASTING FIRE.

 

[TexUs]

LOL I'm glad you think so. Its a kin to taking 11 marbles 10 blue and 1 green. The being asked to select the marbles that best represent the majority and you pick the single green marble. That's a great theological teaching tool.

Your thinking fails in so many ways I'm honestly sad for you.

You admit the passage contradicts your belief- and you don't reform your belief?
You'd rather be stuck with a fallible Word of God that contradicts itself than bring your belief in line with it?

Unbelievable.

You need to re-read my opening post. I am not going to restate everything I have already said so you can pick it apart line by line. You have already made it clear that you are capable of disproving any idea that is outside your personal exegesis.

Thanks for admiring my posting disprove yours, and thanks for realizing your views don't line up with exegesis of scripture.

 

[bud02]

Matthew 18:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the EVERLASTING FIRE.

2Th 1:8-9

 

[Duckybill]

2Th 1:8-9

So you're basically saying the God is going to reward the lost. Ain't gonna happen. The reason the fire is "EVERLASTING" is because it will always be serving its purpose.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[bud02]

Your thinking fails in so many ways I'm honestly sad for you.

You admit the passage contradicts your belief- and you don't reform your belief?
You'd rather be stuck with a fallible Word of God that contradicts itself than bring your belief in line with it?

Unbelievable.


Thanks for admiring my posting disprove yours, and thanks for realizing your views don't line up with exegesis of scripture.

Thats were your very wrong, the bible does not contradict itself. Its your inability to study and ask the Lord to revel to you the truth.
There are 3 words translated hell. If you look you will see what happens to Gehenna in rev and 2 Peter.
Your words convict you that the word of God is foul-able and contradictory, the universal church would be very pleased with your confession.
Satan likes nothing better than for you to question the word of God.

Gen 3:1
[sup]1[/sup] Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

So you're basically saying the God is going to reward the lost. Ain't gonna happen. The reason the fire is "EVERLASTING" is because it will always be serving its purpose.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

And just how do you conclude I said "God is going to reward the lost?"

Mr Duck you are putting words into my mouth.

 

[Duckybill]

Thats were your very wrong, the bible does not contradict itself. Its your inability to study and ask the Lord to revel to you the truth.
There are 3 words translated hell. If you look you will see what happens to Gehenna in rev and 2 Peter.
Your words convict you that the word of God is foul-able and contradictory, the universal church would be very pleased with your confession.
Satan likes nothing better than for you to question the word of God.

Gen 3:1
[sup]1[/sup] Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”



And just how do you conclude I said "God is going to reward the lost?"

Mr Duck you are putting words into my mouth.

You didn't say that God is going to destroy the lost rather than burn them forever?

 

[bud02]

You didn't say that God is going to destroy the lost rather than burn them forever?

Paul, Jesus and Peter and John all said God is going to destroy them. Now how do you get reward from destroy.

So you're basically saying the God is going to reward the lost. Ain't gonna happen. The reason the fire is "EVERLASTING" is because it will always be serving its purpose.

 

[Duckybill]

Paul, Jesus and Peter and John all said God is going to destroy them. Now how do you get reward from destroy.

Quite simple actually. Those who spend eternity in the AWFUL Biblical Hell will wish they were destroyed. I.E.

Luke 16:22-26 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. [sup]23 [/sup]And BEING IN TORMENTS in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [sup]24 [/sup]THEN HE CRIED and said, 'Father Abraham, HAVE MERCY ON ME, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME.' [sup]25 [/sup]But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. [sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

 

[bud02]

Quite simple actually. Those who spend eternity in the AWFUL Biblical Hell will wish they were destroyed. I.E.

Luke 16:22-26 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. [sup]23 [/sup]And BEING IN TORMENTS in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [sup]24 [/sup]THEN HE CRIED and said, 'Father Abraham, HAVE MERCY ON ME, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME.' [sup]25 [/sup]But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. [sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

If you look closely you'll discover that this is a parable. I have to leave this endless impasse now, I said what I wanted to and as always you and everyone else have a choice, isn't that the wonderful thing about God he lets us make our own choices. Do you see the big big red letters above? Now read below.

1. “Tartarus” means “a place of darkness or restraint” (2 Peter 2:4). Satan abides there now.
2. “Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). Jesus Christ’s body rested there, and His saints rest there now awaiting the resurrection.
3. “Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, described in Matthew 13:40-42, 2 Peter 3:7, 10-12). These flames are yet future, at the end of the world.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14, King James Version, italics added)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, New International Version, italics added)

Rev 20:14 hell in the KJV = 86. haides hah'-dace from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell. ​

 

[Duckybill]

If you look closely you'll discover that this is a parable. I have to leave this endless impasse now, I said what I wanted to and as always you and everyone else have a choice, isn't that the wonderful thing about God he lets us make our own choices. Do you see the big big red letters above? Now read below.

1. “Tartarus” means “a place of darkness or restraint” (2 Peter 2:4). Satan abides there now.
2. “Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). Jesus Christ’s body rested there, and His saints rest there now awaiting the resurrection.
3. “Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, described in Matthew 13:40-42, 2 Peter 3:7, 10-12). These flames are yet future, at the end of the world.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14, King James Version, italics added)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, New International Version, italics added)

Rev 20:14 hell in the KJV = 86. haides hah'-dace from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell. ​

So all of my English translations are wrong and you are right? Not likely.

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

 

[bud02]

So all of my English translations are wrong and you are right? Not likely.

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Mr Ducky can't you read? Take any translation you want but Hell / Hades in Rev 20:14 is the word Hades in Greek plan and simple, the KJV falls short on this verse as well, what can I say. And what happens to Hades in Rev? Its cast into the fire along with death after the judgment, and destroyed just like all the 11 verses I gave you say, death is the result not torment forever. Just like God told Adam the day you eat of it you will DIE. Nothing has changed, it's peoples interpretation that has changed not Gods word.

 

[TexUs]

Thats were your very wrong, the bible does not contradict itself. Its your inability to study and ask the Lord to revel to you the truth.

But you said it conflicted with your ten verses. You admitted that. You admitted it contradicted it.
That means you must be admitting the passage Foreigner posted contradicts the rest of the Bible. You didn't question what Foreigner said with it, you said it was just "1 against 10" and admitted it contradicted what you posted.

This means what you posted cannot be in harmony with what Scripture actually says, since you admitted what Foreigner said was correct and contradicted it. YOUR interpretation of it is what's wrong.

I don't expect you to ever admit it, you're probably regretful you slipped up and said what you did.

If you look closely you'll discover that this is a parable.

I disagree. Why would Jesus cause unnecessary confusion in using the lame of Lazarus (the one he raised) again if he simply made it up as a parable? Why not make up a name that wouldn't confuse?
But instead he used one that did... Why would that be unless this person ACTUALLY EXISTED?

Plus this passage contains entirely too much detail, Christ takes it way too far to simply be a parable, he could have simply left it at "Lazarus went where there was no pain or suffering", but no, he describes them bodily, he throws in Abraham, a tongue, finger, water, chasm... It makes no sense why Christ would go to this detail for simply a parable (read any other parable and you won't find this much detail).

 

[aspen]

Your thinking fails in so many ways I'm honestly sad for you.

You admit the passage contradicts your belief- and you don't reform your belief?
You'd rather be stuck with a fallible Word of God that contradicts itself than bring your belief in line with it?

Unbelievable.


Thanks for admiring my posting disprove yours, and thanks for realizing your views don't line up with exegesis of scripture.

Wow - we could have saved so much time - I would have admitted that my understanding of scripture does not match your ages ago.