HELP, I'M A UNIVERSALIST - CAN SOMEONE BRING ME INTO THE FRESH WATERS OF 'ETERNAL DAMNATIONISM'?

[Available Light]

Only that's not what it means at all.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Yes Paul had lots of glorious promises for believers, but also warnings:

Ephesians 5:5,6 says, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh THE WRATH OF GOD upon the children of disobedience."

Universalism is just Calvinism with unlimited atonement, and those that preach it do the same thing Calvinists do, they pick a few verses out of context to try and make them say what they want them to instead of rightly dividing the whole Word.

They might not inherit the kingdom in this age, like all christians that die because the wages of their sin is death too - but in the long term, God shall be all in all (I Cor 15:28) - You have to see the big picture, not just a few generations.

Like Rev 21:5 Behold, I make all things new -
You think all things in Romans 11:36 "Out of him and through him and to him are all things" the same All Things?
Eternal Damnationism did not take root until the Second Council in 543 AD, from Carthage, then the Catholic Church ran with it, mainly from Tertullian.

 

[stredaleve]

Will start with just one verse at a time, until you're taking in so deep you end up banning me.

actually based on what i've seen a non-religious forum will immediately ban you for disrespecting admins just saying...and cf will also immediately ban you

but here they are so considerate as to let you stay i think this is the best place for sinners but not the place for atheist

 

[Available Light]

Only that's not what it means at all.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Yes Paul had lots of glorious promises for believers, but also warnings:

Ephesians 5:5,6 says, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh THE WRATH OF GOD upon the children of disobedience."

Universalism is just Calvinism with unlimited atonement, and those that preach it do the same thing Calvinists do, they pick a few verses out of context to try and make them say what they want them to instead of rightly dividing the whole Word.

When you speak of verses out of context, do you mean like Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." ?

 

[stredaleve]

How can people really love God knowing he is burning people for eternity?

but that is the truth though he will burn the fallen angels along with the people for all eternity knowing that is knowledge
and knowing this isn't it scary? 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. note

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

i'm sure a lot know this by most of the members in here more than me

 

[Available Light]

but that is the truth though he will burn the fallen angels along with the people for all eternity knowing that is knowledge
and knowing this isn't it scary? 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. note

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

i'm sure a lot know this by most of the members in here more than me

They might know it, but whether they know how to interpret it correctly is another issue.

Here is the simplicity of it, once 'death and hades are burned up, the lake of fire has nothing left to burn and the fire goes out, and there is "NO MORE DEATH" - Rev 21:4 and Jesus will have made "All things new" - Rev 21:5
Really easy if you have a spiritual mind.

 

[Taken]

HELP, I'M A UNIVERSALIST ...
OP^

Anyone?

Saved UNTO What?

Why?

 

[Taken]

How can people really love God knowing he is burning people for eternity?

Why do you believe a dead lifeless human body burns for eternity?
Humans can completely burn a human body in about 3 hours.

 

[Available Light]

Why do you believe a dead lifeless human body burns for eternity?
Humans can completely burn a human body in about 3 hours.

That's the eternal damnationist's issue that literalize the spiritual metaphors in the Book of Revelation -
No one said it was a human body, you're working on a straw man

 

[JohnDB]

I'm smelling a troll...

All caps in title asking for help with a known theological fallacy?

Not going to bite and putting this one on ignore.

 

[Renniks]

When you speak of verses out of context, do you mean like Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." ?

Exactly. If you only had that verse, it might seem like universalism could be correct, although just because a gift came to all doesn't prove all received it. But we don't just have this verse.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

It's obviously when you read the previous verse that it only applies to those we receive it.

 

[Available Light]

Exactly. If you only had that verse, it might seem like universalism could be correct, although just because a gift came to all doesn't prove all received it. But we don't just have this verse.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

It's obviously when you read the previous verse that it only applies to those we receive it.

You might have a slither of a point if the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE was not "working all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" - Eph 1:11.
You kinda forget about the soveriegnty of God -Thus,
Roman 9:16 IT IS NOT of him that willeth or him that runneth, BUT GOD that shows mercy.

Too many are duped into the Illusion of Freewill.

 

[stredaleve]

They might know it, but whether they know how to interpret it correctly is another issue.

Here is the simplicity of it, once 'death and hades are burned up, the lake of fire has nothing left to burn and the fire goes out, and there is "NO MORE DEATH" - Rev 21:4 and Jesus will have made "All things new" - Rev 21:5
Really easy if you have a spiritual mind.

you mean to say that the devil will not be tormented anymore when the fire is out but why did those demons trembled when they pray if it's only temporary tribulation for they have live longer than normal people can imagine to the point of almost eternal or are you saying that they are erased

 

[Available Light]

I'm smelling a troll...

All caps in title asking for help with a known theological fallacy?

Not going to bite and putting this one on ignore.

I sense the miasma of fear

you mean to say that the devil will not be tormented anymore when the fire is out but why did those demons trembled when they pray if it's only temporary tribulation for they have live longer than normal people can imagine or are you saying that they are erased

Oh, yeah, the devil is just the personification of the demonic earthly nature of mortals.

 

[stredaleve]

I sense the miasma of fea

Oh, yeah, the devil is just the personification of the demonic earthly nature of mortals.

okay thank you for the convo i'm out of here

 

[Philip James]

like all christians that die

Hello Available Light,

welcome to this forum!

Why would one think that any Christian has died? Our God is the God of the living!

Peace be with you!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

You left out that pesky VS 25 -
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Most all are still ignorant of the mystery . .

No doubt, this is no easy doctrine to get a grasp of. That's cool that you believe you've got it figured out! I've read the Bible a few times with these questions in mind. I haven't been able to get to the bottom of it. Like I said . . . not easy.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

No one needs to “bring” you anywhere. Continue to believe that God is a liar and His word is false and I am confident that you can reach your goal of “eternal damnation” without any outside help. ;)

We should not be cruel to each other.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

What a powerful scripture. I wonder why the others here have not responded to it.

It's exactly as Kreisel has stated, which is that few people have ever taken the bait of the word "Mystery." We were, and are still, supposed to grasp that word and realize that there is something taking place in this Bible that we're supposed to be aware of. But also as stated, who even has the awareness to think this way? Very, very, very few.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Why use a phrase like 'Unending Death' which is not in the Bible?
I prefer to believe that God's mercy endureth forever, and he will give life to all like Romans 5:18 states -

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

In fact, verse 19 says that because of Adam, "Many" were made sinners. And the same word is used to correct the problem through Christ, which is that "Many" would be made Righteous. Is it the same number or a different number?

What makes this such an interesting doctrine is that the Bible is clear that mankind is unable to obey because of the Curse of Adam and Eve. Thus, the purpose of Christ is to lift the Curse that causes disobedience. And it is a legitimate argument, which is that how could God condemn those whom he has put to sleep? Meaning, those who have been put to sleep have absolutely no chance of waking themselves up. It is God alone who wakes us up and into obedience.

Again . . . this is an amazing doctrine to cover. :)

 

[DuckieLady]

I'm not a theologian, but God damning people for eternity does not feel right with the Jesus I know.
It makes me cringe, I thought Jesus paid the price for all the sins of everyone?

How can people really love God knowing he is burning people for eternity?

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Jesus, Matthew 13:41-42

Okay but following that:
"Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

This comes from a dream I had about 10 years or so ago, so it's not written well, but I'll tell you anyway. Everyone is born into sin, and there is already a path set before them, and they know the direction they're taking. Imagine you're on a train and it's heading towards death, but the train attendant stops to let you know, "These people are going to Death, but you don't have to go there. You can get off and turn around now."

The opportunity to get off of the train is there. Not only that, but if you do go, you get to attend a wedding with the king and live in eternity. It's an invitation to escape the path we were already on. Refusing it is up to the person.

Remember: EVERYONE is invited. God is not willingly sending people into hell. He is offering them a way out of hell and they're refusing it.