Heresy within Christianity

[Yehren]

You are right, and the DNA record shows that we all came from the same parents, are of one race, the human race, are all related, and that differences in people are genetic and not racial.

No. That's what racists will tell you, but it's wrong. There are no genetic human races. There is more genetic variability in any "race" you might define than there is between them.

In actual fact, evolution is totally responsible for racism,

No, for the reason I just showed you. Evolutionary theory has shown that there are no biological human races, but into the 1990s, creationists like ICR director Henry Morris was still blathering about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black people:

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Institute for Creation Research director Henry Morris, The Beginning of the World, Second Edition (1991), pp. 147-148:

At a time when Darwinists like Punnett had completely debunked eugenics, showing it to be scientificially unsupportable, prominent creationists like William J. Tinkle, co-founder of the Creation Research Society, was an enthusiastic supporter, even arguing against letting "inferior humans" reproduce.

At the present time there are in the United States more than a million people with serious hereditary defects, and to reduce their numbers by even a few thousand would reduce the amount of discomfort and hardship in the future. Unfortunate births are reduced by segregation also but there are not enough institutions to house nearly all the ones who have unfortunate genes. Institutional care is expensive but as compared to total government expenditure it is small.

Sterilization is sometimes employed with the consent of the patient for non-eugenic purposes. An example is a woman who has borne three children by Caesarean section and could not stand another birth. Persons who are on the borderline of normal mentality may be able to marry and care for themselves but would not be good parents. Their children might be normal or might be defective, and at any rate would have poor home discipline. Such persons sometimes are prevailed upon to submit to sterilization, to their own advantage.
William J. Tinkle, Heredity. A study in science and the Bible, 1967

This is not to say that all YE creationists are racists and eugenicists. Most are not. It merely demonstrates that racism among the YE creationist leadership has been a problem at a time when evolutionary theory has debunked both racism and eugenics.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Because changes in allele frequencies in populations happens all the time. That's the scientific definition of evolution. I think you've confused the phenomenon of evolution with a consequence of evolution.



I think you've confused the phenomenon of evolution with a consequence of evolution.



Yep. Most people who are "against evolution" don't even know what it is.





Christians have always believed it as it is written. YE creationism is a revision of Genesis, no older than the 20th century. When St. Augustine showed that the "days" of creation were figurative, not literal, no one at the time thought to disagree with him. If you won't accept Genesis, then how can you believe the rest of the Bible?



Fortunately, God doesn't care if you approve of evolution or not. That's not how He will judge you. Eternal life will be determined for you as Jesus says in Matthew 25. Check it out, and act accordingly. Your soul depends on it.



Jesus said so. I believe it. You should, too.

Do you accept His word on this? If not, all you might have is just religion with no evidence of a true conversion to Christ. On what do you base your assurance that you can honestly call yourself a Christian?

You could say, "The Bible tells me so". But since you are demonstrating that you don't believe the Bible as it is, but are accepting a modern YE view of the formation of the cosmos and the world you can't be sure. It's possible for you to still believe the salvation Scriptures even if you believe the YE revision of Genesis 1. But if you make an idol of your new beliefs, and insist that one must agree with your revisions to be saved, you may have replaced Jesus with you man-made doctrines.

Instead of depending on man's version of Genesis, you should consider just accepting it as it is.

You can still be saved if you don't, so long as you don't think your new beliefs are required for all Christians.

So, you are trying to tell me that God created the heavens and the earth through evolution - or some kind of gradual process over millions of years, and that God is actually saying that in Genesis 1?

St Augustine was not the Holy Spirit. He was just a man. The Holy Spirit says that the earth was created first and surrounded with water. Then on the third 24hr day, the Holy Spirit said that God installed all the plant vegetation on the earth. Then the Holy Spirit said that the sun, moon, and stars were created on the fourth 24hr day. This means that the cosmos was not formed by evolution over millions of years, but in one 24hr day! The Holy Spirit said that! So, who do we accept, the word of man, or the word of the Holy Spirit?

So, I am not accepting man's version of Genesis 1, but the Holy Spirit's version of it, and I would rather take His word for it, than man's scientific guesses.

 

[Yehren]

So, you are trying to tell me that God created the heavens and the earth through evolution

I'm trying to get you to understand that evolution is just a change in allele frequencies in a population over time. Nothing about forming heaven or earth or anything else. I think you've confused evolution with "stuff that scares me."

St Augustine was not the Holy Spirit. He was just a man.

So were the people who invented YE creationism. The difference is, Augustine's theology was based on scripture,and YE creationism is based on the visions of a Seventh-Day Adventist prophetess.

The Holy Spirit, through the text of Genesis, shows that the days of creation were not literal days. The Holy Spirit said that! So, who do we accept, the word of man, or the word of the Holy Spirit?

You're accepting man's version of Genesis 1, and I would rather take His word for it, than a woman's religious visions.

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh, come on! Use your brain! Do you think that Adam and Eve had only one son in all Adam's 800 years of life. The Scripture says he had many sons and daughters. You are the one who is leaving things out of the Biblical record.

Let's do the math:
1+1=2; 2+2=4; 4+4=8; 8+8=16, then 32, 64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096, 8192. There's 13 generations already. If a generation is say 25 years, we have gone 325 years. And that is just from Adam. But all those children had children too, so in 325 years the number would be 8192x8182 which is over 67,108,694. That could populate several sizeable cities. All Cain had to do was marry just one women out of all, say 33 million of them. Adam went 800 years having sons and daughters. after another 325 years, the population would have been easily 67 million x 67 million. That is a whole lot of people on the earth in 650 years of Adam's life after having Cain. And Cain outlived him so guess how many his descendants would have been!

It seems to me that you are making claims that cannot be substantiated from Scripture.

Adam was 130 years old when he had Seth and he lived for another 800 years which means that he lived for a total of 930 years before he died.

You claim that Cain outlasted his father Adam, but their is no biblical evidence to support this claim, i.e. Gen 4:16-24 which is all the Biblical evidence we have about Cain after he departed from living in and around Adam.

Perhaps making false claims like yours is where heresy within Christianity starts. What we do know from the Gen 4:16-24 reference is that Cains descendant generations live around the same time period as Seth's descendant generations, probably for around seven descendant generations. Lamech was Seth's seventh descendant generation and was born around 800 years before the Flood and died, from my reckoning, about 5 years before the flood.

Shalom

 

[Yehren]

It seems to me that you are making claims that cannot be substantiated from Scripture.

I'm thinking that none of this has anything to do with one's salvation. Theology won't save. A loving heart for God and your neighbor will save.

 

[101G]

So, you are trying to tell me that God created the heavens and the earth through evolution - or some kind of gradual process over millions of years, and that God is actually saying that in Genesis 1?

St Augustine was not the Holy Spirit. He was just a man. The Holy Spirit says that the earth was created first and surrounded with water. Then on the third 24hr day, the Holy Spirit said that God installed all the plant vegetation on the earth. Then the Holy Spirit said that the sun, moon, and stars were created on the fourth 24hr day. This means that the cosmos was not formed by evolution over millions of years, but in one 24hr day! The Holy Spirit said that! So, who do we accept, the word of man, or the word of the Holy Spirit?

So, I am not accepting man's version of Genesis 1, but the Holy Spirit's version of it, and I would rather take His word for it, than man's scientific guesses.

no for an argument, but how can you get a 24hr. solar day when the sun shined on day #4? for to get a 24hr. solar day is A. the sun shining, and B. the earth rotating.

so how one get a 24hr. day before the sun?.

PICJAG.

 

[Paul Christensen]

That's what evolution is. "A change in allele frequencies in a population over time." Do you understand what that means?

What makes you think that they evolved from simpler organisms? The species from which dogs and wolves evolved doesn't seem to have been "simpler." What is your measurable way of showing how simple or complex a species is? We can then test it and see if it has any meaning in biology.



Evolutionary theory would be in big trouble if there was. Dogs evolved from other mammals, not fish.



That's a testable belief. Show me one organism that is exactly the same in the fossil record as it is today. What do you have.



Nope. For example, H. sapiens is rather different today than it was just a few hundred thousand years ago. So that's not a viable hypothesis.



It's pretty clear that you don't even know what it is. As Everett Dirkson remarked, "People are usually down on things they aren't up on."

But YE creationists are not very open to evidence, and it doesn't matter what evidence is produced, their dogmatism will blind them to it.

Man says that dogs evolved from other mammals. The Holy Spirit says that God created dogs as a kind all of their own, along with all the other animals "according to their kind". Therefore according to the Holy Spirit, dogs were created as dogs, cats as cats, horses as horses, and so on. The changes in different breeds of dog, from wolf to domestic dog for example, is through genetics and not evolution.

Evolution requires genetic codes to be added to an animal to change from one kind to another, say from a cat to a dog. But genetics study shows that when a breed of dog changes, say from long hair to short hair, or from brown to spotted black and white, it is the result of genetic material being lost and not gained, which is the opposite of evolution.

So all this comes down to: Do we believe the Holy Spirit, or do we believe the ideas of man? If you are going to put the opinions of man over and above the Holy Spirit, then you have to do it for the whole Bible, and adopt a position that the Bible was not God communicating to the authors through the agency of the Holy Spirit, but the religious God-thoughts of natural man. If that is so, then the salvation promises are just the religious thoughts of man and not the direct promises of God at all! There goes your foundation of saving faith!

I believe the Scripture:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (1 Peter 1:20-21).
Peter was talking about all of Moses and the Prophets, including the whole of Genesis. He says that the Holy Spirit spoke to the holy men of God who wrote what He said in the Bible. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit did not speak to Moses to write Genesis 1, then we have to say that Peter is either mistaken or lying. And if Peter was mistaken or lying about that, then he must have been the same with the gospel he preached, and it "ain't necessarily so" that salvation, as he told the crowd at Pentecost, comes by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And, seeing that Mark got most of his information from Peter for his gospel of the life of Jesus, then if Peter was mistaken, that puts Mark's gospel in serious doubt about whether it is really the truth. And if Luke got information from Peter as well, then that puts paid to Luke's gospel as well!

 

[Paul Christensen]

No. That's what racists will tell you, but it's wrong. There are no genetic human races. There is more genetic variability in any "race" you might define than there is between them.



No, for the reason I just showed you. Evolutionary theory has shown that there are no biological human races, but into the 1990s, creationists like ICR director Henry Morris was still blathering about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black people:

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Institute for Creation Research director Henry Morris, The Beginning of the World, Second Edition (1991), pp. 147-148:

At a time when Darwinists like Punnett had completely debunked eugenics, showing it to be scientificially unsupportable, prominent creationists like William J. Tinkle, co-founder of the Creation Research Society, was an enthusiastic supporter, even arguing against letting "inferior humans" reproduce.

At the present time there are in the United States more than a million people with serious hereditary defects, and to reduce their numbers by even a few thousand would reduce the amount of discomfort and hardship in the future. Unfortunate births are reduced by segregation also but there are not enough institutions to house nearly all the ones who have unfortunate genes. Institutional care is expensive but as compared to total government expenditure it is small.

Sterilization is sometimes employed with the consent of the patient for non-eugenic purposes. An example is a woman who has borne three children by Caesarean section and could not stand another birth. Persons who are on the borderline of normal mentality may be able to marry and care for themselves but would not be good parents. Their children might be normal or might be defective, and at any rate would have poor home discipline. Such persons sometimes are prevailed upon to submit to sterilization, to their own advantage.
William J. Tinkle, Heredity. A study in science and the Bible, 1967

This is not to say that all YE creationists are racists and eugenicists. Most are not. It merely demonstrates that racism among the YE creationist leadership has been a problem at a time when evolutionary theory has debunked both racism and eugenics.

I am not a YE creationist. I am a Bible-believer who accepts that the literal text of the Bible was spoken to holy men of God who wrote it down. This includes Moses, who wrote Genesis.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I'm trying to get you to understand that evolution is just a change in allele frequencies in a population over time. Nothing about forming heaven or earth or anything else. I think you've confused evolution with "stuff that scares me."



So were the people who invented YE creationism. The difference is, Augustine's theology was based on scripture,and YE creationism is based on the visions of a Seventh-Day Adventist prophetess.

The Holy Spirit, through the text of Genesis, shows that the days of creation were not literal days. The Holy Spirit said that! So, who do we accept, the word of man, or the word of the Holy Spirit?

You're accepting man's version of Genesis 1, and I would rather take His word for it, than a woman's religious visions.

No. You are accepting man's version of Genesis 1. I accept what the Holy Spirit literally told Moses, that God created our world and planted it out in 3 24hr days, and created the whole cosmos in 1 24hr day, created all the animals after their own kinds in another 24hr day, and then created Adam on the 6th 24hr day. That is exactly what the Holy Spirit told Moses and we have His record of it. If you don't believe that then you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar and that man's theories are more correct than His.

 

[Stumpmaster]

The "death" God spoke of was not a physical death. We know this for certain, because God told Adam he would die the day he ate from the tree. Adam eats and lives on physically for many years thereafter. So if God tells the truth, it wasn't a physical death.

That being so, the existence of physical death before the fall has no significance whatever.

Hi Yehren. Ok, so you are an SDO (spiritual death only) adherent. But I have to ask what do you think has happened to Adam and Eve's previously immortal bodies if only spiritual death was punishment for disobedience?

From my files: THEISTIC EVOLUTION REFUTED

 

[Paul Christensen]

It seems to me that you are making claims that cannot be substantiated from Scripture.

Adam was 130 years old when he had Seth and he lived for another 800 years which means that he lived for a total of 930 years before he died.

You claim that Cain outlasted his father Adam, but their is no biblical evidence to support this claim, i.e. Gen 4:16-24 which is all the Biblical evidence we have about Cain after he departed from living in and around Adam.

Perhaps making false claims like yours is where heresy within Christianity starts. What we do know from the Gen 4:16-24 reference is that Cains descendant generations live around the same time period as Seth's descendant generations, probably for around seven descendant generations. Lamech was Seth's seventh descendant generation and was born around 800 years before the Flood and died, from my reckoning, about 5 years before the flood.

Shalom

All I did was to give a common sense, logical answer to the question about how there were populated cities in Adam's lifetime, and where Cain got his wife. There is no rocket science there. Isn't it amazing that when people get religion they turn the logical, common sense part of their brain off!

If you think I am wrong, then you tell me how a number of cities sprung up during Adam's lifetime, and where Cain got his wife, and how was he able to found a city in the Land of Nod?

 

[Paul Christensen]

no for an argument, but how can you get a 24hr. solar day when the sun shined on day #4? for to get a 24hr. solar day is A. the sun shining, and B. the earth rotating.

so how one get a 24hr. day before the sun?.

PICJAG.

Well, you tell me! Is the Holy Spirit lying when He says that there were three 24hr days consisting of evening and morning before He put the sun in place and lit it up? I guess that God, being all-powerful, can actually do things that we can't understand - and so, we just have to take His word for it. When Job and his friends tried to work things out, wondering what God was doing, God said, "Were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth, or put the stars in the sky?" That's God's answer to those who question His word when He says that He does things that we can't understand and try to explain through our limited human logic.

 

[Yehren]

Hi Yehren. Ok, so you are an SDO (spiritual death only) adherent.

The text itself says so. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree. Adam eats from the tree, and lives physically for many years thereafter. So if God is trustworthy, we can be sure it wasn't a physical death.

But I have to ask what do you think has happened to Adam and Eve's previously immortal bodies if only spiritual death was punishment for disobedience?

Scripture doesn't say they were immortal. In fact God acknowledges that they aren't and expresses concern that they might become so:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Immortality of Adam is man's insertion into God's word.

 

[Huperetes]

If the penalty for sin was physical death then our sin would be paid for once we had died. The fact that it isn't points to a death far more serious. (not that I support the theistic evolution agenda)

 

[Yehren]

I'm trying to get you to understand that evolution is just a change in allele frequencies in a population over time. Nothing about forming heaven or earth or anything else. I think you've confused evolution with "stuff that scares me."

So were the people who invented YE creationism. The difference is, Augustine's theology was based on scripture,and YE creationism is based on the visions of a Seventh-Day Adventist prophetess.

The Holy Spirit, through the text of Genesis, shows that the days of creation were not literal days. The Holy Spirit said that! So, who do we accept, the word of man, or the word of the Holy Spirit?

You're accepting man's version of Genesis 1, and I would rather take His word for it, than a woman's religious visions.

No.

I see your denial, but God's word is more persuasive. You are accepting man's version of Genesis 1.

As you have seen, the text itself tells us that the "days" are figurative, since it's impossible to have mornings and evenings with no sun to have them.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I'm trying to get you to understand that evolution is just a change in allele frequencies in a population over time. Nothing about forming heaven or earth or anything else. I think you've confused evolution with "stuff that scares me."

So were the people who invented YE creationism. The difference is, Augustine's theology was based on scripture,and YE creationism is based on the visions of a Seventh-Day Adventist prophetess.

The Holy Spirit, through the text of Genesis, shows that the days of creation were not literal days. The Holy Spirit said that! So, who do we accept, the word of man, or the word of the Holy Spirit?

You're accepting man's version of Genesis 1, and I would rather take His word for it, than a woman's religious visions.



I see your denial, but God's word is more persuasive. You are accepting man's version of Genesis 1.

As you have seen, the text itself tells us that the "days" are figurative, since it's impossible to have mornings and evenings with no sun to have them.

It is amazing that every other reference to "day" that includes "morning" and/or "evening" refers to a 24 hour day; and the most prominent Hebrew lexicon of the Bible gives "day" as a 24hr day and its first reference is Genesis 1!

So, you are saying you are right and the authors of the principal Hebrew. lexicons of the Bible are wrong!

Isn't it just amazing that every other reference in the Old Testament that includes evening and morning in its reference to "day" is fully accepted, but Genesis 1, that also has morning and evening along with the word "day" is not! Consistency, thou art a precious jewel, not discovered by those who are devoid of commonsense comprehension!

Even one of the 10 year olds whom I used to teach would instantly say that the days in Genesis 1 are 24 hour days because they include evening and morning!

 

[Yehren]

If the penalty for sin was physical death then our sin would be paid for once we had died. The fact that it isn't points to a death far more serious.

Hadn't thought of that. But yes, you're right.

 

[Yehren]

It is amazing that every other reference to "day" that includes "morning" and/or "evening" refers to a 24 hour day

The text itself says they aren't literal days. No mornings and evenings can be without a sun. So there's no point in denying the obvious.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The text itself says they aren't literal days. No mornings and evenings can be without a sun. So there's no point in denying the obvious.

That's man's thinking. But the Holy Spirit said that on days 1-3 there was morning and evening, and the description of these days is no different from all the other days in the Old Testament that mentioned morning and evening. So, you are putting yourself against the Holy Spirit and are doubting the authority of the Bible.

 

[Jay Ross]

All I did was to give a common sense, logical answer to the question about how there were populated cities in Adam's lifetime, and where Cain got his wife. There is no rocket science there. Isn't it amazing that when people get religion they turn the logical, common sense part of their brain off!

If you think I am wrong, then you tell me how a number of cities sprung up during Adam's lifetime, and where Cain got his wife, and how was he able to found a city in the Land of Nod?

So, in other words you are prepared to throw out what the Bible reveals and ignore what is recorded and instead present a 2020 AD human logical understanding to justify your point of view.

Has heresy written all over your posts.

As regards to your request for me to provide you with an explanation of how cities came into being during the time of Cain, I will not, as I do not
believe that any explanation of how the cities developed over time, does not add to the purpose of the the first 11 chapters of the Book of Genesis.

Shalom