HERESY?

[Moriah's Song]

Scripture says no such thing. And "the last day" is used as a metaphor for a very long period, not for a 24 hour day.

And your scripture reference is what?

WHEN HE COMES THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL FIRST RISE AS HE COMES WITH A SHOUT

1 Thess. 4:16-18 - "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

1. Jesus' second coming could be at any time and we should always be ready for it.
2. Jesus' imminent physical recognition (presence) will be signaled by the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of heaven. It will be an event that is obvious to all people on the earth.
3. Jesus will appear in the clouds.
4. This will be followed almost immediately by a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
5. The righteous dead will be caught up with Jesus in the air, after which those saved who are still alive will also be caught up; this, by definition, will be a separation of the saved from the lost, who will remain on the earth.
6. The righteous will live with Jesus, His father and the Holy Spirit forever in heaven.
7. The lost will be cast alive into the lake of fire where they will ever be doomed with the devil and his angels.

This is as the scripture tells us and is in contradiction of what dispensationalism tells you.

 

[Marymog]

Jehovah's Witnesses hold an annual observance of the Lord's Supper on the date that it was held by the first Christians, but only those who were parties to the New Covenant partake of the emblems. The rest of those present pass the emblems in remembrance of the sacrifice Christ made for all of us, because we see ourselves as the beneficiaries of that New Covenant, not parties or signatories to it. The Kingdom has rulers and subjects...we know the difference. A kingdom is not a kingdom without subjects.....and these will live forever on earth as God first intended.(Revelation 21:2-4)....

That is fascinating. I love to learn about other denominations.....Thank you.

 

[Enoch111]

No, Moriah is correct, the "last day" is when Lord Jesus showed the resurrection will happen...

Since the "last day" includes both the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the unrighteous -- which are separated by MORE THAN 1,000 YEARS -- it is simply a metaphor for the end of the age.

RESURRECTION OF THE UNRIGHTEOUS IN THE LAST DAY
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12:2)

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48)

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:11,12)

Since we know that Resurrection/Rapture, as well as the resurrection of the Tribulation saints, occur over 1,000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment, and the "last day" includes all three events, it cannot possibly be a 24 hour day. It is simply a metaphor for this period of time.

 

[Marymog]

The AF's were said to be contemporaries of some of the apostles. Thus, they should have been familiar with apostolic teachings. Regarding what those men wrote, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:
“Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.”⁠

If the apostles taught the Trinity, then those Apostolic Fathers should have taught it too. It should have been prominent in their teaching, since nothing was more important than telling people who God is. So did they teach the Trinity doctrine?

The Didache, (the authors of which are unknown) deals with things people would need to know to become Christians. In its 7th chapter, it prescribes baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” the same words Jesus used at Matthew 28:19. But it says nothing about the three being equal in eternity, power, position, and wisdom.

In its 10th chapter, The Didache includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer:

“We thank you, Holy Father, for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts; and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have made known to us through Jesus your Servant. Glory to you forever! You, Almighty Master, created everything for your Name’s sake . . . And to us you have graciously given spiritual food and drink, and life eternal through Jesus your Servant.”⁠

There is no Trinity even hinted at here. Jesus is a "servant" of his Father (Acts 4;27, 30 ) not an equal.
In the matter of God’s supremacy and his relationship with Jesus, the teaching of the Apostolic Fathers is fairly consistent with the teaching of Jesus, the disciples, and the apostles, as recorded in the Bible. All of them speak of God, not as a Trinity, but as a separate, eternal, almighty, all-knowing Being. And they speak of the Son of God as a separate, lesser, subordinate spirit creature whom God created to serve Him in accomplishing His will. And the holy spirit is nowhere included as an equal of God.
The ECF's were the ones who began to veer off course.....ever so gradually...little by little until the declaration of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century. Christianity has no nationality....

Fascinating. Sooooo the men of your denomination when they read the Didache they don't see the Trinity in the statement "father, Son, holy spirit"? If that is not a Trinity....then what is? And since the Trinity is NOT mentioned in chapter 10 that cancels out what is said in chapter 7?? Hmmm....

Did you know that Clement of Rome, along with the Didache, eluded to the Trinity ALSO: For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect,...(58:2).

Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the Kingdom of God was at hand.” 42.1-3

if we do the will of our Father God, we shall be members of the first church, the spiritual—that which was created before the sun and moon… I think not that you are ignorant that the living church is the body of Christ… The church being spiritual, was made manifest in the flesh of Christ, signifying to us that if any one of us shall preserve it in the flesh and corrupt it not, he shall receive it in the Holy Spirit.

“The ministers of the grace of God have, by the Holy Spirit, spoken of repentance;” 8.1 “Now the faith which is in Christ confirms all these [admonitions]. For He Himself by the Holy Ghost thus addresses us: ‘Come, ye children, harken unto Me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.’” 22.1
Clearly Clement is talking about 3 different entities.

Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians eludes to the Trinity: “Nevertheless, I have heard of some who have passed on from this to you, having false doctrine, whom you did not allow to sow among you, but stopped your ears, that you might not receive those things which were sown by them, as (you, the church) being stones of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope,".

For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.” To the Ephesians 18.2

Polycarp prays to the Father (14.1) before dying: “Wherefore also I praise You for all things, I bless you, I glorify You, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Your beloved Son, with whom, to You, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” 14.3


Sooooo the AF's CLEARLY taught the Trinity.....they just didn't use the word "Trinity".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Oooop! on my part. Moses was born from the tribe of Levi and then was brought up in the Gentile home of the Pharaoh of Egypt and it says in Exo 2:10..."And the child grew, and she brought him to Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son; and she named him Moses, for she said, "Because I drew him out of the water."

However, I have not found any scripture that says that Moses was circumcised. He certainly would not have been unless he was circumcised prior to being put in a basket in the river. If you find a verse please let me know.

Edit added: It is interesting that Moses married a Gentile Cushite woman.

Exodus 2:
6 And when she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the baby wept. So she had compassion on him, and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.” She could tell immediately this was not an Egyptian child. How? I think it was obvious. LOL

 

[Wrangler]

Sooooo the AF's CLEARLY taught the Trinity.....they just didn't use the word "Trinity".

I don't know who "AF's" are but the Apostles never taught the trinity and Christ did not teach the trinity. They didn't use the word and did not teach the doctrine.

 

[Marymog]

And yet you follow the teachings of a church that has well and truly apostatized from the teachings of Jesus Christ and given allegiance to those who fell away, introducing all manner of doctrines which find no support in scripture at all.
So many beliefs and practices that run contrary to what Jesus taught....I can never understand anyone reverting back to what the Reformers rebelled against....but even they did not stay true to the teachings of Christ, running with the same erroneous core of teachings that the Catholic church held to be true. The trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire.....none of which are from the Bible.

Lol....Hold on.....HOLD ON.....You can't be serious right now?

You are a member of a denomination that most Christians don't even consider to be Christian yet you accuse ME of "follow the teachings of a church that has well and truly apostatized from the teachings of Jesus Christ and given allegiance to those who fell away, introducing all manner of doctrines which find no support in scripture at all." The man who created your denomination in the 1800's was so disliked by others in that denomination that they split off from him. So PLEASE don't speak so condescendingly to me about my Church....

Oh goodness....

 

[Marymog]

I don't know who "AF's" are but the Apostles never taught the trinity and Christ did not teach the trinity. They didn't use the word and did not teach the doctrine.

If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not 3 different entities then what are they? What name would you give them?

 

[Marymog]

Jehovah's Witnesses hold an annual observance of the Lord's Supper on the date that it was held by the first Christians, but only those who were parties to the New Covenant partake of the emblems. .

What your denomination practices is not based on what is taught in Scripture......... An annual observance????? The NT Christians did it daily but your denomination does it annually???????????????????????????????????

 

[1stCenturyLady]

How about a "public" rapture? But the only public will be Christians. And it would be totally absurd if the Rapture occurred AFTER the Tribulation.

What makes you believe Christians are not present through the GT? Look at Revelation 12:17. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This chapter shows that the woman, Israel, is being hidden during the first half of the GT. This is when they are unblinded and coming to believe in Jesus and joining His Church. The rest of her offspring are spiritual Jews - Christians, Romans 11. Those are "Christians" that haven't completely "overcome." Read the letters to the seven churches - Revelation 2 and 3. The Philadlphians, those who have already become righteous and holy are protected, like national Israel is, except they are protected for the entire period to the second coming.

Rev. 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

 

[Marymog]

A little humility would go a long way.

You thinking it is your job to tell people they are wrong is the problem.

You crack me up Wrangler. I gave you 8-10 passages from Scripture that backs up what I say and what I practice.

YOU??? You give your opinion

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't know who "AF's" are but the Apostles never taught the trinity and Christ did not teach the trinity. They didn't use the word and did not teach the doctrine.

If you know Who the Word is then yes they did.

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

These words weren't added later, but restored. Earlier church fathers than the earliest (surviving) manuscript even quoted it.

 

[Wrangler]

You crack me up Wrangler. I gave you 8-10 passages from Scripture that backs up what I say and what I practice.

YOU??? You give your opinion

Right! This is what trinitarians do; throw a bunch of verses against the wall hoping something will stick. Anyone can synthesize any doctrine by piecing together enough verses from here to there but that is a far cry from an explicit teaching of Scripture, like For us, the nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S & HS who are co-substantial, co-equal and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved. The trinity is not in Scripture because it is not the word of God.

The trinity goes against explicit teachings of Scripture, For us, there is one God, the Father. 1 Cor 8:6. This is consistent with how Jesus taught us to pray - not to a trinitarian God.

 

[Wrangler]

If you know Who the Word is then yes they did.

1 John 5:7

Are you even aware the KJV trinitarian translators got this wrong? It is widely recognized as the most corrupt from from that translation. On the corruption of 1 John 5:7-8, the “Comma Johanneum” – Trinities

 

[Marymog]

Right! This is what trinitarians do; throw a bunch of verses against the wall hoping something will stick. Anyone can synthesize any doctrine by piecing together enough verses from here to there but that is a far cry from an explicit teaching of Scripture, like For us, the nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S & HS who are co-substantial, co-equal and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved. The trinity is not in Scripture because it is not the word of God.

The trinity goes against explicit teachings of Scripture, For us, there is one God, the Father. 1 Cor 8:6. This is consistent with how Jesus taught us to pray - not to a trinitarian God.

Lol....Yup!! Absolutely horrible what us Trinitarians do. Use the bible to back up what we believe.

I guess I could join you and your anti-Trinitarian cult and reject 2,000 years of Christian teaching....but I won't.

Mary

PS....noticed how you once again gave your opinion and nothing to back it up.

 

[Wrangler]

If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not 3 different entities then what are they? What name would you give them?

Only God the Father is explicit in Scripture. Jesus is never referred to as God but the son of God, which by definition, makes him not God.

The Holy Spirit is the easiest entity to destroy as he is non-existent; an attribute of God not a being of God. Every epistle's prologue acknowledges only 2 beings; God and his Son.


Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One, who grants us every spiritual blessing in these heavenly realms where we live in the Anointed—not because of anything we have done, but because of what He has done for us.
Ephesians 1:3

 

[Marymog]

Only God the Father is explicit in Scripture. Jesus is never referred to as God but the son of God, which by definition, makes him not God.

The Holy Spirit is the easiest entity to destroy as he is non-existent; an attribute of God not a being of God. Every epistle's prologue acknowledges only 2 beings; God and his Son.


Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One, who grants us every spiritual blessing in these heavenly realms where we live in the Anointed—not because of anything we have done, but because of what He has done for us.
Ephesians 1:3

What man taught you this?

 

[Wrangler]

.noticed how you once again gave your opinion and nothing to back it up.

Notice again that is not true. I quoted 1 Cor 8:6, which explicitly goes against the trinity.

Your intellectual dishonesty is on display because I am primarily pointing out what is absent from Scripture; namely, the trinity in a verse like a wrote in red. Just admit it is not there and we can go on.

 

[Wrangler]

I guess I could join you and your anti-Trinitarian cult and reject 2,000 years of Christian teaching.

If you know your history, you know the trinitarian cult began in the 4th century. It must be embarrassing that the Apostles who walked with Christ never taught the trinity and never recorded Jesus teaching the trinity. Jesus did not teach the trinity. An inconvenient truth.

 

[Wrangler]

What man taught you this?

I read the Bible myself.

And he will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’
Psalm 89:26

“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

For us, there is one God, the Father
1 Corinthians 8:6

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2

May God our Father give you grace and peace.
Colossians 1:2

I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1

We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.
1 & 2 Timothy 1:2

May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3

For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”
God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.
Hebrews 1:5

Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring
James 1:27

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy.
1 Peter 1:2

when he received honor and glory from God the Father.
2 Peter 1:17

We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)

Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father
2 John 1:3

He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father.
Revelation 1:6