HERESY?

[Aunty Jane]

"The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day."

Does that include Luke?
He was not a monotheist Jew and he wrote a good chunk of the New Testament.

Who told you that Luke was not a monotheistic Jew? Luke is called "the beloved physician". (Colossians 4:14) He was not an apostle and does not mention being with Jesus or witnessing his works or sermons. He quite possibly became a believer after Pentecost. Paul was his main source of information, having been converted by the risen Christ and educated by him. He was not educated by the other apostles.
Luke is spoken of as a fellow worker with Paul. (Philemon 1:24)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, Luke was an Apistate Jew. And if if he is an exception, it doesn’t change the rule as he wrote extensively about monotheism.

Was that supposed to an "an apostate Jew"? If so....all the first Christians would also fit that description.

 

[Moriah's Song]

You still cannot even admit the trinity is not in the Bible.

You know perfectly well that I gave you ample verses that indicated the legitimate term "trinity" through scripture. The "trinity" became a "realized" doctrine because of the evidence in scripture alone and in defence of the early heresy that 3 different gods existed....which was what the one true Godhead was not 3 different "gods"! That is why God formed a people of his own that would believe him; to separate them from the gods of Abraham in the land of Ur that he was taken from.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You know perfectly well that I gave you ample verses that indicated the legitimate term "trinity" through scripture.

Ample verses from a dodgy translation....lets go back to the original languages and take the verses from the Greek...
Let's leave our preferred English translations aside and compare the originals.....what have you got to lose apart from the shaky foundation of Christendom's beliefs? If the trinity is wrong....what else is wrong? I think you'd be surprised....

 

[Moriah's Song]

take the verses from the Greek...

I use 3 lexicon, 2 Interliner Bibles and 3 Bibles dictionaries as resources along with over 40 Bible versions and many Bible commentators - each Bible today of which was translated by the Septuagint translators of the Koine Greek text before I reach an opinion of what scripture is truly saying.

 

[Enoch111]

...Since the Son of God was the very first of Jehovah's creations...

I am glad you posted this heresy in the heresy thread. People, did you get that? Christ is a CREATED BEING, just like Michael the Archangel. Yet God the Father calls Him "GOD" (THEOS)! So should we believe the Watchtower liars, or should we believe God the Father?

But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (Heb 1:8-10)

So according to this passage the Son of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- is (1) the Creator of the universe and (2) God the Son. On the authority of God the Father. But this passage has been deliberately corrupted in the Jehovah's Witness New World Translation (NWT) so that the brainwashed JWs will not see the truth. Here it is.

CORRUPTED NWT TRANSLATION
But about the Son he says "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands."

Now does everyone see the blasphemy and absurdity of this translation? God, who sits on His throne in divine majesty is literally made into a throne -- a seat for the Son! And "God, your God" introduces a redundancy, unlike the KJV, in which the Father addresses the Son.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1. explain how Jesus was able to speak to Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days. His spirit had left him but Jesus was able to call back Lazarus' spirit and restore him back to a natural life;

Jesus called the dead back to life in the resurrections he performed. The "spirit" is the "breath" (the true meaning of the word) that is what Jesus restored....like Adam, these were not breathing and so not alive until the breath was put back into their lungs. What is CPR for? How many have been brought back from the brink of death because their breathing was restored and their heart stated beating again?

2. explain how Jesus was able to ressurect himself from the dead when he was dead for hours if not days;

He didn't. The Bible says that his Father raised him from the dead. (Acts 10:38-40) Jesus was actually dead for three days as he said he would be. Jesus the man died when he breathed his last breath. He expired.

3. explain how it was that Jesus in Matthew 27:52-53, could have opened those tombs of the saints, raised them from the dead, and have them ascent into heaven with him;

A very mistranslated verse and completely obscure because no other gospel writer mentioned this. Don't you think such a momentous event would have been attested to by all four?
Think about this.....could those "saints" have been resurrected at the moment Jesus died? What does the rest of scripture say?
John 3:13..."No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (NASB)

Does the Bible contradict itself? Or is there another reasonable explanation? Since Jesus was not resurrected for three days, then these "saints" were not resurrected, but their "bodies" were "raised" out of their tombs by the great earthquake that occurred as Jesus breathed his last breath.
It was not uncommon for that to occur and the ones who witnessed this would have gone into Jerusalem to report it.

4. Explain how Jesus used the term "We will come unto him and make our abode with him." Who are the "our" and the "we" in that verse?

Since Jesus is God's appointed King, "they" "we" "our" (Jesus and his God and Father) would always be with those who were to rule in heaven with Christ. Its the whole reason for their choosing. (Hebrews 3:1-6)

5. How could Jesus have said, "I and the Father are one" without being condemned as a liar? If Jesus was lying he would not have been sin free. If he was not sin free, you and I and all other human beings on planet earth have been duped and are still in our sins because, as a sinner, he could never have been our sacrifce; he would have been reduced to being no different than you and I. How does that make you feel?

What???? That was a declaration of unity of belief and purpose, repeated by Jesus with regard to his disciples in John 17:22...
"The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one".
Were all the disciples "God" as well?

6. At Christ baptism the Son came up out of the water, the Spirit descended upon Him and the Father's voice spoke from heaven (Matt. 3:16,17). Explain that please?

You really are stuck in this mindset aren't you? We require the services of all three as each supply something that is needed to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does it even suggest that these three are one God. Not one verse in the whole Bible supports a trinity because there was no trinity when these were written. It is read into certain verse as you have demonstrated.

7. Probably the most beautiful description of the work of "atonement" is found in Hebrews 9:14, where it is stated that Christ, through the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God; and there we behold the three Persons operating together again in Matthew 3:16,17.

Hebrews 9:11-14...can we take this in context?....
"11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (NASB)

What is this actually saying that you think refers to the trinity?

God the Father is eternal, (without beginning or end) which means that he has always been "Almighty" or "All Powerful", so his spirit has been his power for as long as he has existed....it is eternal like he is, because he is God. Jesus, OTOH is not eternal because this one was "the firstborn of ALL creation" (Colossians1:15) In the Revelation 3:14, which was given to Jesus by his Father, he calls himself "the faithful Witness, the beginning of God's creation". So the Son is created, and his existence is unique because he is the only direct creation of his God....all other things were created "through" and "for" the Son as Colossians 1:15-17 says. These are his inheritance.

Jesus can do nothing without God's spirit.....God gives his spirit generously to whom ever needs it, and as a man Jesus received God's spirit at his baptism, not his birth. That is because part of Jesus' ministry was to show by the operation of God's power that the Father had shifted his favor from the disobedient Jews, to the faithful disciples of his Son, to begin the operation of a "new covenant".
Jesus was able to impart the power of the spirit to his apostles with the mention of his name....but at Pentecost, all the disciples present received the holy spirit, which was God's power to perform miracles.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a "bias of older translations." The doctrine of the triune God was debated in the early church beginning in...30 AD.

And right there is why the trinity is a false doctrine.....if it was a true doctrine, no debate would have been necessary, nor would there have been controversy over its introduction, which took over 300 years to become "official church doctrine".
If it was a Bible teaching, it would have been plainly stated.....it never was.

 

[Wrangler]

I am glad you posted this heresy in the heresy thread. People, did you get that? Christ is a CREATED BEING

All sons are created beings. The heresy is to suppose a man who died is God.

 

[Cooper]

All sons are created beings. The heresy is to suppose a man who died is God.

A hundred dollar bill is cotton, linen, ink and has a metallic strip, but is ONE.

Israel is ONE with millions of persons. Stop it with this nonsense.
.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Christ is a CREATED BEING, just like Michael the Archangel. Yet God the Father calls Him "GOD" (THEOS)! So should we believe the Watchtower liars, or should we believe God the Father?

Pompous as usual Enoch....for goodness sake, can't you cut the drama? Have you ever looked past the KJV and actually studied the Bible as it was written?

But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (Heb 1:8-10)

Believers in the Trinity prefer the Authorized Version, or King James Version, which renders it as above. Thus, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6-7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this Psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God.

Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”
So in harmony with the rest of scripture, Jesus' Kingdom is founded upon God.....it was on God's throne that all the kings of Israel were said to sit. None of them were God.

So according to this passage the Son of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- is (1) the Creator of the universe and (2) God the Son. On the authority of God the Father. But this passage has been deliberately corrupted in the Jehovah's Witness New World Translation (NWT) so that the brainwashed JWs will not see the truth. Here it is.

No sorry, that is not what it says at all....that passage was deliberately corrupted long before the NWT came onto the scene.
According to Colossians 1:15-17, Jesus was the agency "through" whom creation came into existence....he is not the Creator, only Jehovah is.

CORRUPTED NWT TRANSLATION
But about the Son he says "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands."

The correct version.....
Every translation I looked up...even the KJV says..."Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
This is addressed to one who worships his God and is anointed by him.....did God do that to himself? What nonsense!

Now does everyone see the blasphemy and absurdity of this translation? God, who sits on His throne in divine majesty is literally made into a throne -- a seat for the Son! And "God, your God" introduces a redundancy, unlike the KJV, in which the Father addresses the Son.

Or the absurdity of implying something the Bible clearly does not teach....even your own beloved KJV has proved you wrong.

To put another god (or two) in place of the Father is a breach of the First Commandment (Exodus 20:3).....that is why those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment, he says he "never knew"....those whom he called "workers of lawlessness". (Matthew 7:21-23) What law are they breaking? The most important law ever uttered by God himself. ...'no other gods but Yahweh'.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Now, that translation does not even make grammatical sense. Speaking about past a tense situation cannot have a present tense response. Jesus had said that he existed before Abraham, so to make grammatical sense it should be “Before Abraham was, I was”....grasping at Exodus 3:14 to back up the trinity is fraudulent to say the least.

These are verses below that show that Jesus existed, in the past, was in the present from His birth to His resurrection, and into the future as the Greek and the Hebrew reveal the same from the Septagint. The Watchtower deliberated change Jesus "omnipresence" to only indicate his existance as "being in the past" by changing God's Word to "I have been; excluding the term "without explicit limits" which means he existed before the creation and was not "a created being" as Aunty Jane says...

Since the Son of God was the very first of Jehovah's creations,

Exo 3:14 (RSV)...God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Jhn 8:58 (RSV)...Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Jhn 14:6 (RSV)...Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me"
Jhn 14:9(RSV)...Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, ​

John 8:58 (NWT)....Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."

Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510(eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).​

 

[Moriah's Song]

No sorry, that is not what it says at all....that passage was deliberately corrupted long before the NWT came onto the scene.
According to Colossians 1:15-17, Jesus was the agency "through" whom creation came into existence....he is not the Creator, only Jehovah is.

This is a contradictive oxymoron if I ever saw one. You first say that "Jesus was the agency "through" whom creation came into existence" but then say that "Jesus was not the Creator", only Jehovah is".

Excuse me???? How can you possibly be so contradictive without any cause and then say that Jesus was the "creator of the creation that came into existence" and then turn around and blatantly state that "only Jehovah was the Creator of the universe?"

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot believe people cannot grasp this. I have explained it about a hundred ways in Grailhunter's Corner that the one God formula for the Trinity is a lie. From the start it was intended to be lie. This doctrine was created to stop arguments upon the threat of excommunication or death if anybody brought the same questions up.

Grailhunter’s Corner

It is pretty much the rule that if someone comes up with a slogan that is not in the Bible...ie Trinity or Original Sin or hyper grace, it is a lie. You can pretty much bet on it. Someone is trying to get you to believe a lie.

And this why you cannot understand the Bible without understanding the culture. What is the oneness concept in this culture....unity...solidarity....accord....
Christ explained what this oneness was about in a prayer from God the Son to God the Father....that is two of them....not praying to Himself...
John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
and then again
John 17:23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.

Christ, a God, talking to His Father, a God and explains that this unity this oneness is for us..."that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in Me and I in You. Words mean things! "may all be one" and the word "as" is important...the word is not like....it is not symbolically....it is not even similarly. "As" is the word, exactly the same.

Now we are not going to be absorbed into the great godhead....as one person and we are not going to be Gods. So there is something else about this unity....this oneness that Christ speak of.

The debate is over the wrong topic....even though we can only speculate....What is this unity? This oneness that Christ speaks of? Christ did the will of the Father, not His own....that is two wills....two minds. Still speculating, it might be important for three Gods to agree, or have a unity in such a fashion that would prevent disagreement. What that is, is speculative.

I hate to bring up science or logic with Christians but.....if you have three computers and they do calculations.... the results will be identical. So if God the Father...Yahweh...and God the Son, Yeshua....and God the Holy Spirit have ultimate and flawless intelligence they will always agree. Is this the oneness? Again speculative.

As it appears in the scriptures
The Trinity includes
Yahweh, God the Father, God Almighty, Supreme God. Creator of heaven and earth.
Yeshua, God the Son, a full fledged God, Savior and Redeemer and Messiah.
God the Holy Spirit a full fledged God that remained unnamed. Strengthener, comforter, teacher, and guide.

All equally Gods, but the authority of the Father is supreme. I explain this about hundred ways in Grailhunter's Corner. Now I still use the word Trinity....but it is three Gods in a Godhead, not one God, not one person.

You think this is a popular belief that spans centuries, so it must be correct? Misunderstandings that span millenniums exist within Judaism and Christianity. How many people believe that the Ten Commandments are in Chapter 20 of Exodus? How many people believe that God offered heaven to the Israelites or threatened them with hell? How many people believe that the star the Magi followed rested over the nativity?

Interesting Post GH.
I think one can come to understand God in whatever manner he can.
I know another poster that refuses to use the word Trinity and uses the word Godhead, as it seems you like to do.

But you say there are 3 Gods in that Godhead....That can be taken to be pantheism, no?

Can we not say that in the Godhead reside 3 beings?
Each one part of, or equal to, or the same substance as, God the Father?

 

[GodsGrace]

When we are born again of His Spirit, our carnal nature is crucified with Christ. Therefore, we no longer have the human nature you are referring to. Romans 8:9. We are not in the carnal nature but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells within us. And if we do not have the Spirit of Christ (His nature) we do not belong to Him.

You will continue to claim we do not sin.
I will continue to state that we do.

If we no longer have the human nature...then what nature do we have?
Are we all little gods?
The spirit of God DWELLS within us, as you've said, we are not little gods.
The N.T. states that we PARTAKE of God's nature...
2 Peter 1:4
New American Standard Bible
Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust.

To partake means to PARTICIPATE IN, it does not mean that we receive the divine nature.
ONLY GOD has the divine nature...if we had it, we'd be deity.

Ephesians 4:24
... put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

LIKE GOD....this is different than IN THE IMAGE OF GOD.
ONLY JESUS is made in the image of God...an exact rendering,,,and exact image.
To be LIKE something is not to be in nature like that thing.
If we are LIKE a tree..it means we dress up and stand tall and very still, but we do not get the nature of a tree.

Did you study 2 Peter 1:2-11 yet? Do you see that we partake of the Divine Nature? That is the nature of God. Jesus did not sin, and in Romans 8:29-30 we are told that He was the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN. IOW, many like Christ. That is how we can be holy, as God is holy. 1 Peter 1:15-16. Understand?

Partly answered above.
Let's go through
2 Peter 1:2-11
1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
12Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

Verse 3: Through the knowledge of Jesus, we can come to know how to be godly and live a truly free life pleasing to God Father.

Verse 4: God has promised and passed on to us, through HIs own excellence, a life void of the consequences that come about because of participation in a world full of corruption. As they say, we are IN THE WORLD, but NOT PART OF THE WORLD. We no longer participate in THE CORRUPTION of the world.

Verse 5 - 7: To our faith we are to supply the following: moral excellence, knowledge (spiritual), self-control, perseverance in our faith,
a godly living day to day, brotherly love for everyone,

Verse 8: IF these qualities are ours AND INCREASING, we are not useless to God and in understanding Jesus and His mission.

Verse 9: If we lack these qualities, which means that we can, we forget our purification from our FORMER SINS.

Verse 10: Begin doing the above things right now and we will not stumble in our lives but be will be firm in our knowledge of how we are to behave.

Verse 11: And our entrance into the Kingdom of God will be ours.

Verse 12: Peter will keep reminding us to be alert, even though we know the rules and know the truth.


OK. So where does the above say we will come to some point where we never sin again?

Peter asked Jesus:
Matthew 18:21
21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Did Jesus reply that Peter would no longer have to forgive anyone?
No. Jesus told him that if the time came to have to forgive someone, Peter would have to do this forever.

As you know, Not forgiving is a sin.
So why did Jesus tell Peter he had TO KEEP FORGIVING?

Also notice the ending of
Matthew 18:35
35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

So, have we already forgiven everyone in our entire life's history right now??
Or do we have to keep forgiving from the heart?
And will this forgiving be sponstaneous or will some time of healing be required before we can forgive from the heart?

GG, this is very important. The Great Tribulation starts only weeks or months from now. Those Christians who do not understand the gospel - that Jesus takes away our sin nature and gives us His own nature, and have the evidence that they have received and been filled with the Holy Spirit through righteousness and holiness will be martyred. It will be a time of great testing for those who have not overcome. Revelation 2 and 3. The Bible says they will be beheaded. That is why I post what I do.

WHAT!
I just finished paying off my car!

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a contradictive oxymoron if I ever saw one. You first say that "Jesus was the agency "through" whom creation came into existence" but then say that "Jesus was not the Creator", only Jehovah is".

Excuse me???? How can you possibly be so contradictive without any cause say that Jesus was the "creator of the creation that came into existence" and then turn around and blatantly state that "only Jehovah was the Creator of the universe?"

Good catch.

I'd take it one step further and say this:

God Father is the creator in design and will.
He is "the architect".

But HOW did all get created?
Through THE WORD OF GOD....see Genesis,
God SPOKE everything into creation.

The WORD OF GOD created everything.
Jesus is The WORD OF GOD.
John 1

The Word of God became flesh....
But ALWAYS existed WITH GOD....IN GOD. As His Word.

 

[Grailhunter]

Interesting Post GH.
I think one can come to understand God in whatever manner he can.
I know another poster that refuses to use the word Trinity and uses the word Godhead, as it seems you like to do.

But you say there are 3 Gods in that Godhead....That can be taken to be pantheism, no?
Can we not say that in the Godhead reside 3 beings?
Each one part of, or equal to, or the same substance as, God the Father?

I keep saying it....Beliefs....Truths.....Facts Basic concept of reality.
I definitely use the word Trinity...Tri-unity.
That can be taken to be pantheism....Yeap.
Ever hear of Hans Christian Andersen's--- The Emperor's New Clothes.
People afraid to admit what they see....
The Gospel storyline proves in how they interact and referred to each other that they are not one person...one God.
In Grailhunter's Corner I prove over a hundred ways how and why the one God formula for the Trinity is false.
Once false beliefs start it is hard to put them to rest. You can give a hundred scriptures and examples and it is like it is branded in their brain. Who would want to confuse the meaning of the Scriptures?
The most dangerous are the ones that prevent salvation or lead to hell....
This is not one of those. This one skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures.
My ministry is the Johnny Appleseed of Truth. I sow the seeds...from there it is up to God to speak to them.

On the other hand....
And as I explained....the Laws of Physics.....in the spirit world. We do not know or maybe cannot comprehend all that is the Trinity and the spirit world? Like Christ said, this oneness is something that we will obtain.....does that mean we will be absorbed into the one God and become Gods ourselves? I think not.

I do know that there is a unity between Gods as they sit on three thrones in heaven. Now what is the functionality of that?
Is it because perfect minds think alike? But then how could Christ be doing the will of the Father, not His own? How could the Father know something that the Son does not. How can Christ not have the authority to grant the mother's request for her sons to sit on thrones with them? And Christ answered her, "But the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. Whoever My Father says will have those places.” This is the sort of thing that occurs all through the Gospels....Does the scripture say, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten self? Did Christ ascend to Himself? He said, the Father is greater than I. My Father in Heaven?

Now the one person God....if that were true....could you attribute any event or action to any one of them? “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”.....what would that mean? People read all the proofs that there are three Gods but it just does not register. What it means is that they are passing over hundreds of scriptures and not considering what they mean. It is like static to them. That is not the way to understand the scriptures or Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace]

For the purpose of this thread, go against the word of God?! Never.

The Son is not the Creator. Father's create son's. Colossians 1:15 informs us Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.

The problem with your above statement is that The Son, The 2nd Person of the Trinity is NOT created.
If He were created he would not be God and when reading the N.T. we do come away with the idea that Jesus is God, which is why Caiaphas tore his robe...Jesus declared Himself to be God.

You hang on to every weak verse, that does not even mean what you believe, to uphold your idea that the Trinity does not exist.
Does this mean Jesus is not God?
I'm not really sure what your position is.


Colossians 1:15
13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

In Colossians 1:5 Paul calls the letters circulating among Christians The Word of Truth,,,The Gospel.
Did John, who knew Jesus personally and was beloved by Him, know Jesus or not?

Do you think John was speaking of a man in his gospel message?
John explains the Beloved Son is.

In Colossians 1:15 Paul states that Jesus is THE IMAGE of the invisible God.
What does this mean to you?

You should read some commentaries re Colossians 1:15...

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because by Him all things were created. This further illustrates that Jesus is not a created being; rather, He is the agent in whom all things were created. The proceeding phrases give clarification of the meaning of all things. Whether things are in heaven or earth, visible or invisible, they were all created by Christ. Thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities likely refer to both earthly rulers and spiritual powers. Thus, Paul is stating that there is no king, angel, or demon that is greater than Christ because all things were created in Him.

John 1:3 further states this thought: “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” This clearly shows that there are only two categories for all things in existence: made and not made. In the made category, we have heaven, earth, the universe, angels, demons, humans, animals, etc. In the not made category, we have God. Thus, since both Colossians and John place Jesus in the not made category, we can only conclude that Jesus is God. We must have a clear understanding of the divinity of Christ or the prepositions found in this verse make no sense. If Jesus is not infinite God, how can all things be created by (or in) Him? How can all things be created through Him? How can all things be created for Him? Only by proclaiming Jesus to be God can we truly believe that creation exists for Christ, that He is the ultimate end and goal of all existence.

source: How We See Jesus | Colossians 1:15-20


The above explains the nature of Jesus very well. Anyone interested should read the entire article.
Only the JWs believe Jesus to be a created being as the Son of the Godhead.
Are you a JW?

 

[GodsGrace]

I keep saying it....Beliefs....Truths.....Facts Basic concept of reality.
I definitely use the word Trinity...Tri-unity.
That can be taken to be pantheism....Yeap.
Ever hear of Hans Christian Andersen's--- The Emperor's New Clothes.
People afraid to admit what they see....
The Gospel storyline proves in how they interact and referred to each other that they are not one person...one God.
In Grailhunter's Corner I prove over a hundred ways how and why the one God formula for the Trinity is false.
Once false beliefs start it is hard to put them to rest. You can give a hundred scriptures and examples and it is like it is branded in their brain. Who would want to confuse the meaning of the Scriptures?
The most dangerous are the ones that prevent salvation or lead to hell....
This is not one of those. This one skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures.
My ministry is the Johnny Appleseed of Truth. I sow the seeds...from there it is up to God to speak to them.

On the other hand....
And as I explained....the Laws of Physics.....in the spirit world. We do not know or maybe cannot comprehend all that is the Trinity and the spirit world? Like Christ said, this oneness is something that we will obtain.....does that mean we will be absorbed into the one God and become Gods ourselves? I think not.

I do know that there is a unity between Gods as they sit on three thrones in heaven. Now what is the functionality of that?
Is it because perfect minds think alike? But then how could Christ be doing the will of the Father, not His own? How could the Father know something that the Son does not. How can Christ not have the authority to grant the mother's request for her sons to sit on thrones with them? And Christ answered her, "But the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. Whoever My Father says will have those places.” This is the sort of thing that occurs all through the Gospels....Does the scripture say, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten self? Did Christ ascend to Himself? He said, the Father is greater than I. My Father in Heaven?

Now the one person God....if that were true....could you attribute any event or action to any one of them? “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”.....what would that mean? People read all the proofs that there are three Gods but it just does not register. What it means is that they are passing over hundreds of scriptures and not considering what they mean. It is like static to them. That is not the way to understand the scriptures or Christianity.

Actually, I did some minor teaching on the Trinity to young kids to the age of 12.
You still have to come to some understanding of it to teach it to others. (as you have done).

My answer to your last question as to whether or not I could attribute an event or action to any one of them would be...
YES.

The FATHER says: This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.
Father was speaking of the man/God Jesus who had become incarnated.
Jesus was begotten, not made - one in being with the Father.
It clearly says NOT MADE, NOT CREATED, one in being, one in nature, the same as...
Jesus is the IMAGE of God...not the likeness of God.
Father was pleased with Jesus...He lived a perfect life...He was ready for His mission, which Father would accept as a sacrifice for all men due to the fall of Adam, which only a God could fix - no mere human could fix what a human damaged on a spiritual level.
Father is the creator of the universe, the Almighty God, the Supreme Being.

The SON is Jesus, God incarnated. True God.
Jesus, as the SON and 2nd Person of the Trinity will be the being that dies to save us from our sinful selves.
SON is the One that goes to the cross.
SON is the One that makes FATHER visible to us.
SON is the One that created everything FATHER wanted to make by being FATHER'S Word.
SON is the WORD. As John 1 explains.
SON came to teach us how to be pleasing to FATHER, to teach us His ways.
SON started His Church on earth...started the Kingdom of God.
SON did FATHER'S will perfectly.

HOLY SPIRIT is the breath of GOD, as SON is His Word.
HOLY SPIRIT gives life to man...as in Genesis 2.7.
HOLY SPIRIT is the fire in our lives...Jesus baptized with Fire
HOLY SPIRIT is like the wind...we see its effects.
HOLY SPIRIT give us His fruit: Peace, love, patience, kindness....
HOLY SPIRIT is our paraclete, our comforter, our consoler,
HOLY SPIRIT convicts us of our sins.


Could you please post a link to your articles?
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ample verses from a dodgy translation....lets go back to the original languages and take the verses from the Greek...
Let's leave our preferred English translations aside and compare the originals.....what have you got to lose apart from the shaky foundation of Christendom's beliefs? If the trinity is wrong....what else is wrong? I think you'd be surprised....

Jane,
What's interesting about your post is that the Witnesses have the only bible that is different from all others.
This would mean that every other theologian is wrong and only the Witnesses have scholarly theologians.

Russell claimed he knew Greek and translated your first bible and he later attested that he did not know Greek.
He depended on others.

Also, you speak of the "originals".
What originals?
There are no originals from the gospels or the letters...only fragments from some manuscripts.

That being the case...what should we do then?

And don't YOU read a translated text?
You read the bible in Greek?

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually, I did some minor teaching on the Trinity to young kids to the age of 12.
You still have to come to some understanding of it to teach it to others. (as you have done).

My answer to your last question as to whether or not I could attribute an event or action to any one of them would be...
YES.

The FATHER says: This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.
Father was speaking of the man/God Jesus who had become incarnated.
Jesus was begotten, not made - one in being with the Father.
It clearly says NOT MADE, NOT CREATED, one in being, one in nature, the same as...
Jesus is the IMAGE of God...not the likeness of God.
Father was pleased with Jesus...He lived a perfect life...He was ready for His mission, which Father would accept as a sacrifice for all men due to the fall of Adam, which only a God could fix - no mere human could fix what a human damaged on a spiritual level.
Father is the creator of the universe, the Almighty God, the Supreme Being.

The SON is Jesus, God incarnated. True God.
Jesus, as the SON and 2nd Person of the Trinity will be the being that dies to save us from our sinful selves.
SON is the One that goes to the cross.
SON is the One that makes FATHER visible to us.
SON is the One that created everything FATHER wanted to make by being FATHER'S Word.
SON is the WORD. As John 1 explains.
SON came to teach us how to be pleasing to FATHER, to teach us His ways.
SON started His Church on earth...started the Kingdom of God.
SON did FATHER'S will perfectly.

HOLY SPIRIT is the breath of GOD, as SON is His Word.
HOLY SPIRIT gives life to man...as in Genesis 2.7.
HOLY SPIRIT is the fire in our lives...Jesus baptized with Fire
HOLY SPIRIT is like the wind...we see its effects.
HOLY SPIRIT give us His fruit: Peace, love, patience, kindness....
HOLY SPIRIT is our paraclete, our comforter, our consoler,
HOLY SPIRIT convicts us of our sins.


Could you please post a link to your articles?
Thanks.

Grailhunter’s Corner