HERESY?

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1stCenturyLady

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You will continue to claim we do not sin.
I will continue to state that we do.

If we no longer have the human nature...then what nature do we have?

We have the "divine nature" of Christ. 2 Peter 1:2-4 I've shown you this before, GG, but you want to deny it. When are you going to believe? We are to become like Christ. 1 Peter 1:15-16

Romans 8:9 The Spirit of Christ; 1 Corinthians 2:16 (context 9-16) we have the mind of Christ.

Read the words of Jesus and ask yourself if He will allow a sinner to live forever in heaven - John 8:32-36.

You are still thinking with the western mindset. GG, knowing WHO YOU ARE IN CHRIST gives us the confidence to cast out devils and heal the sick, and expect divine protection (picking up serpents and drinking poison without harm - Hebrew idiom)
 

Aunty Jane

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Jane,
What's interesting about your post is that the Witnesses have the only bible that is different from all others.
This would mean that every other theologian is wrong and only the Witnesses have scholarly theologians.
That is not true actually. We did not invent the NWT on our own, but used scholarly works to produce the best translation possible only using the original meaning of the Hebrew and Greek texts. We found so many errors in other translations that we felt we had no choice.

The 1981 edition of the NWT was the culmination of 35 years of studious translation and careful revision. The translating project was initiated back in 1946, and by 1960 both the Hebrew and the Greek portions of God’s Word had been rendered into English directly from the original languages. During those years of translation a great deal of careful research was done by the Translation Committee to assure that the translation was internally consistent in word choice and that the best possible readings of various manuscripts were used in the text. IOW, all scripture had to agree with what was already written....no contradictions.

Since Christendom subscribes to all of the doctrines we reject, using mistranslated old versions like the KJV, if you check with Strongs Concordance for example, the NWT is always spot on, whereas most of the other translations have never bothered to alter anything because it suits their doctrines to keep them as they are.....but none of those core doctrines originate in scripture......like the trinity....immortality of the soul....and hellfire. All are borrowed from pagan sources and a thin veneer of "Christianity" cloaks them using the power of suggestion.

Russell claimed he knew Greek and translated your first bible and he later attested that he did not know Greek.
He depended on others.
Russell was long dead when the NWT of the Greek Scriptures was first published in the 60's. The NWT Translation Committee used Westcott and Horts manuscripts for their translation......they didn't just decide 'willy-nilly' to make their own Bible to suit their own beliefs. We believe ours is the most linguistically accurate.

Professor Jason beDuhn in his book "Truth in Translation" compared many of the more popular English translations and concluded that the NWT was linguistically very accurate. From my own studies and comparing original language words using Strongs Concordance, I have never been disappointed with the NWT's renderings.
I use other translations and like to compare.

Also, you speak of the "originals".
What originals?
There are no originals from the gospels or the letters...only fragments from some manuscripts.

That being the case...what should we do then?
We would not have a Bible to read if careful scribes in the past had not painstakingly copied the Scriptures by hand. In fact, the Hebrew word for “scribe” comes from a root meaning “to count,” because the scribes would count the letters and words in each section of Scripture to be sure that they made no mistakes! The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls proved that those scribes did good work, since those ancient manuscripts agreed closely with the later Masoretic text despite nearly one thousand years of copying that separated them.....if it is indeed God's word, then that should not surprise us. His spirit would not have allowed those older copies to perish and the ancients took great care in preserving those ancient works.

The problems began when English translation took place. Works such as the original KJV were not accurately translated and many modeled their translations on the those old translation errors....not to mention outdated words and phrasing, which are no longer relevant to todays English speakers. The purpose of translation is to convey the thoughts of God's word accurately...not just the words.

And don't YOU read a translated text?
You read the bible in Greek?
Like yourself, I rely on scholars whose job it is to translate from one language to another.....English is not the only translation.
We publish the Bible online in over 210 languages....

Accuracy was the aim.....and we will stand by the NWT against any other. We can compare if you wish....
 
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Aunty Jane

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These are verses below that show that Jesus existed, in the past, was in the present from His birth to His resurrection, and into the future as the Greek and the Hebrew reveal the same from the Septagint. The Watchtower deliberated change Jesus "omnipresence" to only indicate his existance as "being in the past" by changing God's Word to "I have been; excluding the term "without explicit limits" which means he existed before the creation and was not "a created being" as Aunty Jane says...

Well you have that all muddled.....who told you that?
First of all, please tell me where Jesus is ever said to be omnipresent?

Our belief is that Jesus was the very first of God's creations and in accord with Colossians 1:15-17 we see that he is exactly that..."the firstborn of all creation".....if Jesus in his pre-human form was the "firstborn" it means that someone caused his "birth"...someone who existed first.....the 'begetter' of the "only begotten". You seem to miss the fact that all these terms indicate that Jesus is NOT God. That the Father existed before the son and was the one who brought him into existence. As the "firstborn" he was preeminent as God's "Logos"...the one who always spoke for his Father.....in heaven and on earth.

He was used by his Father as the agency "through" whom all creation came. It was made "through him and for him" according to Paul. That makes no sense at all if Jesus was God.

Exo 3:14 (RSV)...God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Jhn 8:58 (RSV)...Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Jhn 14:6 (RSV)...Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me"
Jhn 14:9(RSV)...Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me,
Read that again "have I been" is not the same as "I have been"......one is a question, the other is a statement.​
John 8:58 (NWT)....Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510(eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).
Again you rely on those translations that render that verse incorrectly....the meaning of God's name is not "I AM" and never was. Note the use of capitals there.
You can see from Strongs that the meaning of the divine name is completely misinterpreted...it doesn't mean "I am" but "to be" or to "become"....
Strongs footnote on God's name says..."Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be"
The Jewish Tanakh interprets it own scripture as ..."God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14)

Yahweh was telling his people, not that he existed, but that he intended "TO BE" whatever he needed "TO BE" in order to bring about his will....and we can see from the Bible accounts that he did just that.
 
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Moriah's Song

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Moriah's Song said:
These are verses below that show that Jesus existed, in the past, was in the present from His birth to His resurrection, and into the future as the Greek and the Hebrew reveal the same from the Septagint. The Watchtower deliberated change Jesus "omnipresence" to only indicate his existance as "being in the past" by changing God's Word to "I have been; excluding the term "without explicit limits" which means he existed before the creation and was not "a created being" as Aunty Jane says...
Well you have that all muddled.....who told you that?
Strong's Concordance! They know Greek better than you indoctrinated translators do. I know because I have collected their "revisions" that contradicted their beliefs.

You must have either missed this or avoided the reality of what it says.

It seems you also have avoided all others above that reveal the false teachings of the JW's.
John 8:58 (NWT)....Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510(eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

"Without explicit limits" can only means that in comparison to humans that "have limits" to what they are able to do and "be" the Godhead has "no limits in time" and therefore can be anywhere, anyway, any time, and be in any form". They can do "anything they choose to do" as need be.
 
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Marymog

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LOL....firstly, you can’t “join”....remember? You can choose to “become” a JW, which is the same choice as choosing to “become” a Christian. It’s a conscious choice, made after careful Bible study because we have to speak in agreement with our fellow believers (1 Corinthians 1:10) and it comes with serious responsibilities, which is why you cannot baptize an infant. Once you make a vow to God, which is what baptism signifies (beginning a new life)....then he expects you to carry it out. There are consequences if you fail to do that. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-5)
LOL....Yes I can...IF I CHOOSE too.

Why the semantics Jane? o_O
 

Marymog

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It seems then that you don't even know your own Catholic teaching on the Trinity. Or are you also a Unitarian?

So let's see what the Catholics believe, and whether my statement is imaginary.
"The dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another." -- New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

And what did I say?
There is no such thing as "three Gods in a Godhead". It is always ONE GOD eternally existent as three divine Persons (1 John 5:7 KJB).
Yup your right....
 

GodsGrace

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We have the "divine nature" of Christ. 2 Peter 1:2-4 I've shown you this before, GG, but you want to deny it. When are you going to believe? We are to become like Christ. 1 Peter 1:15-16

Romans 8:9 The Spirit of Christ; 1 Corinthians 2:16 (context 9-16) we have the mind of Christ.

Read the words of Jesus and ask yourself if He will allow a sinner to live forever in heaven - John 8:32-36.

You are still thinking with the western mindset. GG, knowing WHO YOU ARE IN CHRIST gives us the confidence to cast out devils and heal the sick, and expect divine protection (picking up serpents and drinking poison without harm - Hebrew idiom)
We are to become like Christ. Right.
We are to have the mind of Christ and think as He thought. Right.
A SINNER will not be allowed into heaven. Right.

Where does it say above that we do not sin anymore?
Maybe it's YOU that doesn't catch the difference between A SINNER and A SIN.
Is there a difference?
 

GodsGrace

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An assertion that goes against definition, logic and language usage.
How do YOU define God?
How do YOU define Jesus?
Does everything about God have to be logical?
Why didn't He think of another way of saving us instead of crucifying Jesus?
Is Jesus' death of any value?
Why?

I don't understand about the language usage.
I don't know what you mean.
Don't words have meaning?
 
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Aunty Jane

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Moriah's Song said:
These are verses below that show that Jesus existed, in the past, was in the present from His birth to His resurrection, and into the future as the Greek and the Hebrew reveal the same from the Septagint. The Watchtower deliberated change Jesus "omnipresence" to only indicate his existance as "being in the past" by changing God's Word to "I have been; excluding the term "without explicit limits" which means he existed before the creation and was not "a created being" as Aunty Jane says...Strong's Concordance! They know Greek better than you indoctrinated translators do. I know because I have collected their "revisions" that contradicted their beliefs.
You have a collection? Which means you need one....OK please share these contradictions, because I too have examined them thoroughly.

You must have either missed this or avoided the reality of what it says.

It seems you also have avoided all others above that reveal the false teachings of the JW's.
I was raised in Christendom so I have been on both sides of this fence....you act on hearsay....I act on experience. I know what I was taught and I know what the scriptures teach as a whole, not just selective verses that give an impression based on suggestion, not truth.

I suggest you have fallen for the work of the great deceiver who sabotaged Christianity as soon as the apostles were out of the way.....nothing instantaneous.....just gradual additions and excursions into false religious adoptions that were made to appear to be biblical. Little by little “the church” was groomed for these adoptions until they became ‘family’....so much a part of the structure of the church that the lies became the very foundation. I don’t think most believers have any idea about how far off they are from the teachings of the Christ.

"Without explicit limits" can only means that in comparison to humans that "have limits" to what they are able to do and "be" the Godhead has "no limits in time" and therefore can be anywhere, anyway, any time, and be in any form". They can do "anything they choose to do" as need be.
You know, it’s what you don’t address that speaks the loudest....

What you did address is simply justification for what you want to believe.
Strongs footnote elained exactly what God’s name means....did you miss that? Why is it a footnote when it is, according to the Jewish Tanakh, the correct meaning of God’s name. Do the Jews not know how to interpret their own scripture?
Yahweh’s name is not a statement of his existence, but a statement of his intentions to “BE” what he needs to “BE”......because Yahweh has "no limits in time" and therefore can see anywhere, anyway, any time". He can do "anything he chooses to do" as needs be.

I have missed nothing, which is more than I can say for you. You simply avoid answering inconvenient questions in order to hang onto your chosen beliefs.....but that’s OK. This is a judgment period and every one of us is being judged as to how we implement the teachings of God’s son.

Every time we accept what is not truth, it tells God something about us. If we subscribe to ‘delusions’ (what appears to be real) and we love those things, he will allow us to keep them because it means that we do not love the truth as Paul said....speaking of those who were already trying to bring in false teachings but were restrained by the apostles....
2 Thessalonians 2:6-12....
6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.“

When Christ comes as judge, the separating of the “sheep from the goats” is decided and then like the “wheat and the weeds”, he will harvest both, and dispose of the “weeds”, but gather the “wheat” into his storehouse. When you understand that the foretold apostasy goes right back to the first century, it explains why “Christianity” all through its history is such a fractured mess.
 

Wrangler

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Don't words have meaning?

Of course words have meaning and they are used in a certain way. For instance, John 3:16 informs us Jesus was created, begotten - as all sons are. It’s so funny how trinitarians parse such synonyms into antonyms.

Scripture contains no such verse as contained in the question of your last post, ‘the 2nd person of the trinity.’ That such language usage is absent is telling.
 

Marymog

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Semantics? You said you’d join.....it’s not a club....just sayin’.....
Lol....well a "club" is an association or organization dedicated to a particular interest or activity. Are the JW's not dedicated to a particular interest or activity? o_O

So yes...you are playing semantics with words.
 

Moriah's Song

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Strongs footnote elained exactly what God’s name means....did you miss that? Why is it a footnote when it is, according to the Jewish Tanakh
The Free Dictionary.com
ex·plic·it
/ikˈsplisit/
adjective
  • 1.stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt:"the speaker's intentions were not made explicit"
  • Synonyms: clear - direct - plain - obvious - straightforward - clear-cut - crystal clear - clearly - expressed easily understandable - blunt - precise - exact - definite - distinct - express - emphatic - absolute - specific - positive - unequivocal - unambiguous - unmistakable - overt - manifest -detailed - minute - comprehensive - exhaustive - categorical
Once again Strong's concordance: (No mention of Jehovah)
John 8:58 (NWT)....Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510(eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

"Without explicit limits"
can only means that in comparison to humans that "have limits" to what they are able to do and "be" the Godhead has "no limits in time" and therefore can be anywhere, anyway, any time, and be in any form". They can do "anything they choose to do" as need be.

Greek interlinear for John 8:58....
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι
said to them Jesus truly truly I say to you before Abraham came into being
ἐγὼ εἰμί
I am.

John 8:58 (RSV and all other versions) "Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, before Abraham was, I am." (No Jehovah)

Are you able to say "I am" - Jesus could but I have a pretty good idea that you can't be 4,000 years ago and then come from the "seed" of a woman 2,000 years later and still permitted to use the same "I am" of yourself today and be in tomorrow at the same time
?

Only a triune Godhead could say "I am everywhere at all times - past, present and future because "I am eternal."
 
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Aunty Jane

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The Free Dictionary.com
ex·plic·it
/ikˈsplisit/
adjective
  • 1.stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt:"the speaker's intentions were not made explicit"
  • Synonyms: clear - direct - plain - obvious - straightforward - clear-cut - crystal clear - clearly - expressed easily understandable - blunt - precise - exact - definite - distinct - express - emphatic - absolute - specific - positive - unequivocal - unambiguous - unmistakable - overt - manifest -detailed - minute - comprehensive - exhaustive - categorical
Once again Strong's concordance: (No mention of Jehovah)
John 8:58 (NWT)....Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
Strong's Greek: 1510. εἰμί (eimi) -- I exist, I am
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510(eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being(existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

"Without explicit limits"
can only means that in comparison to humans that "have limits" to what they are able to do and "be" the Godhead has "no limits in time" and therefore can be anywhere, anyway, any time, and be in any form". They can do "anything they choose to do" as need be.

Greek interlinear for John 8:58....
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι
said to them Jesus truly truly I say to you before Abraham came into being
ἐγὼ εἰμί
I am.

John 8:58 (RSV and all other versions) "Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, before Abraham was, I am." (No Jehovah)

Are you able to say "I am" - Jesus could but I have a pretty good idea that you can't be 4,000 years ago and then come from the "seed" of a woman 2,000 years later and still permitted to use the same "I am" of yourself today and be in tomorrow at the same time
?

Only a triune Godhead could say "I am everywhere at all times - past, present and future because "I am eternal."
Oh my goodness...more excuses....OK, if that is what you are determined to believe, I will not spend any more time trying to get you to understand what you are in fact doing.....so go in peace.....I'll just shake the dust off and be on my merry way.

You will never be able to tell Jesus that no one told you he cannot be "God" in the sense that Christendom makes him.
 

Aunty Jane

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Lol....well a "club" is an association or organization dedicated to a particular interest or activity. Are the JW's not dedicated to a particular interest or activity? o_O

So yes...you are playing semantics with words.

So apart from the least important part of my post, do you have anything to add by way of defense?
There was much more to my post that you have not addressed at all....
HERESY?
 

Moriah's Song

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Oh my goodness...more excuses....OK, if that is what you are determined to believe, I will not spend any more time trying to get you to understand what you are in fact doing.....so go in peace.....I'll just shake the dust off and be on my merry way.

You will never be able to tell Jesus that no one told you he cannot be "God" in the sense that Christendom makes him.
I will pray that you will someday find an ex-JW that has had their eyes opened by the Spirit of God's Word - and not by the Heretical NWT.:rolleyes:
 
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