HERESY?

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michaelvpardo

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Again i say if we start letting leaven in for the sake of hugs and unity we are gonna destroy our church .
Now paul had to rebuke the corinthians for allow leaven to remain . What do you really think paul would have said
about two gay men that are married , claiming JESUS and sitting in a church .
HE would tell us what i am about to remind us all of , GET THEM OUT , My call would be the same as pauls
Deliver them over unto satan that perhaps the soul can be saved in the day of JESUS .
Cast out the leaven . We do it for the sake of the church and we do it in hopes they will repent .
If you were to cast all sinners out of the church, first you would have empty pulpits (preachers preach first to themselves and secondarily to the congregation) and then you'd have nothing but empty seats.
Who gets to determine what is or isn't sound doctrine? Personally, I trust the word and the Spirit within me. I've heard some generally sound teachers say some of the most ridiculous things (though they might not have heard themselves say them.)

The reformation was a movement to return to biblical doctrines, but the dominant church at that time, the RCC, believed as they still do, that their doctrine is biblical. I don't know who came up with the idea of dispensing grace through sacraments. I don't know who decided that it was okay to sell plenary indulgences. I don't know who decided that it was okay to torture people in order to save them.
I do know however, that people have misapplied scripture and done evil works that they justified with scripture, since they were written and to this date.

The Lord has instructed us to preach the gospel and make disciples of men, but He clearly knew that the mixed multitude benefits from the blessings of the obedient children of God.

On sites like this we beat each other over the head with our Bibles, but the word itself says:
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27

This isn't a free pass to preach heresy, but the Lord left us to abide with tares until His coming, knowing that we have no power to see what's in a person's heart, or the future (God can turn anyone around and we haven't a clue who those potential brothers and sisters are.)

Pastors, shepherds, have a calling to protect their congregations and address visible sin in the church. Elders have a responsibility to minister to their pastors, to preserve sound doctrine, and administer church discipline. Prophets have the responsibility of addressing hidden or unacknowledged sin in the congregation through the application of the word given.
In all the appointed roles of the church, in all the callings empowered by the Holy Spirit, we're instructed to act according to our faith, guided by biblical instruction but primarily by His Spirit.
While I do see biblical instruction to contend for the faith, I don't see specific instructions to contend for sound doctrine, and probably because our minds aren't automatically renewed upon recieving His Spirit, but must be transformed as we are sanctified by the word. Those who are spiritual are to correct and rebuke those who are not, but we live in a time that rejects authority, disbelieves prophecy, and is scornful of godly rebuke.
I kind of think that unsound doctrine is the least of our concerns and the contentiousness born of it leads to broken relationships, animosity, and outright malice.

I really try to not go there anymore because doctrine divides rather than unites. The thousands of "Christian " sects all exist because of doctrinal division.
What unites the church is divine love flowing from His Spirit, mercy, forgiveness, and grace towards others, not doctrine.
However, there is no room for compromise with the gospel.
The gospel is the power of God to salvation, so a false gospel can not save, but only mislead.

9 Whoever transgresses does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11

Unsound doctrine is only a problem when we refuse to believe the word. There will always be a faithful remnant in the church, simply because the real church is His body of believers born of His Spirit and by His will, not our own.
If you trust the Lord, then you should trust that the head, Jesus Christ, is able to control His body. It is His body, not ours, purchased with a price paid in blood.
Where does your confidence lie, in the church, or in our God?

When the Jews made the temple in Jerusalem their house instead of God's house, they defiled everything and brought destruction upon themselves. The church at large is not beyond such foolishness. Sometimes the stewards of the house forget their position. Sometimes when they work to build it, they convince themselves that its their's and forget that they do nothing except through Him (nothing of Value at least.)
I'm not saying that we shouldn't seek sound doctrine, but the Scripture lays the burden of rejecting unsound doctrine on us, individually. God didn't appoint doctrine police in the church and that is an example of the long suffering of God, which scripture identifies as salvation. The Lord wants the angels to suffer the presence of the tares until the final harvest, for the sake of the wheat. Our responsibility to each other is to build up, not to tear down. Restoring a house is a destructive process by nature, but personal offense is primarily in our mind and perception, entirely subjective, and a form of temptation to sin in retribution.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
 
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Moriah's Song

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Mark 14 is the passover meal. or the feast of unleavened bread.
The "Feast of Unleavened Bread" and the "Feast of Passover" are two different feasts but are usually, but not always, held together. That is why you have verses 12 and 22 using the same word "bread" but with different Greek meanings which are referred to as "homonyms".

I see you only posted verse 22 that shows "bread" as "artos" in the Greek but excluded verse12 because the English word "unleavened" was clearly the Greek word "azymos".

Acts 12:3 - "When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread."

STRONGS G740: ἄρτος, -ου, ὁ, bread; Hebrew לֶחֶם;
1. food composed of flour mixed with water and baked; the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence, it was not cut, but broken Matthew 4:3; Matthew 7:9; Matthew 14:17, 19; Mark 6:, Mark 6:37; Luke 4:3; Luke 24:30; John 6:5ff; Acts 27:35, and often;​

ἄρτοι τῆς προθέσεως, loaves consecrated to Jehovah, see πρόθεσις; on the bread used at the love-feasts and the sacred supper cf. Matthew 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19; Acts 2:42, 46; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:26-28. (Note that Mark 14:12 is not listed here because it was "unleavened bread" - azymos.)​

Below is a list of verses with "bread/artos" used in John (I skipped over non-bread verses) Greek- bread = artos , G740 (Used 18 times)

Jhn 6:4- Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

Jhn 6:5- Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a multitude was coming to him, Jesus said to Philip, "How are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?"

Jhn 6:7- Philip answered him, "Two hundred denarii would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little."

Jhn 6:9- "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two fish; but what are they among so many?"

Jhn 6:11- Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted.

Jhn 6:13- So they gathered them up and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves, left by those who had eaten.

Jhn 6:26- Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.

Jhn 6:31- Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"

Jhn 6:32- Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Jhn 6:33- For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world."

Jhn 6:41- The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."

Jhn 6:48- I am the bread of life..

Jhn 6:50- This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

Jhn 6:51- I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Jhn 6:58- This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."​

Is that why you did not include the Attachment for verse 12?
 
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Moriah's Song

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This isn't a free pass to preach heresy, but the Lord left us to abide with tares until His coming, knowing that we have no power to see what's in a person's heart, or the future
I agree with most all you have to say above but I do see verses that says we are to reach out to those who are brother's or sister's in Christ that have turned away....

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,​
 

michaelvpardo

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I agree with most all you have to say above but I do see verses that says we are to reach out to those who are brother's or sister's in Christ that have turned away....

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,​
Of course and its understood that they are to be treated as those outside the faith, as the unbelieving world. The ministry of Christ is the ministry of reconciliation, not the ministry of separation. The only separation allowed in the church is that of separating visibly sinning individuals from the common graces of the congregation when they remain unrepentant, so that their deeds don't corrupt others.
 

Grailhunter

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As long as we are clear that there are wines and wines, and that the Bible speaks of pure fresh grape juice (or "new wine")
Absolutely not. The only time you can have non alcohol wine is as it come out of the winepress. Any thing in between is wine that is sealed with the grape skins and is partially fermented....that is a sliding scale. And just so you know you will never find an ancient grape press....grapepress is not even a word. It is Winepress.

But this one you can test yourself. In the heat of the summer set some fresh grape juice out in the heat....you can put it in the shade ...after three days drink it and see what happens to you. Sealed or unsealed.

Grape juice that has been continuously refrigerated will keep for about 7 to 10 days after opening.

According to the US Food and Drug Administration, perishable foods that are supposed to be refrigerated, like juice, can only be left out at room temperature for two hours before it's considered unsafe to consume. That is not talking about the heat of the summer.
 
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Grailhunter

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When we consider the miracle of the Water into Wine, since that was instantaneous, the possibility of fermentation was zero.
Christ not power enough to make wine?
When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” John 2:9-10
 
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Grailhunter

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You will note in connection with the Lord's Supper, that we read of "the cup" rather than "wine". Since leaven represents sin and evil, that cup had unfermented wine, and the bread was unleavened also, both representing the sinless blood and body of Christ.
No biblical support for this....that is zero.
But if it makes you feel better.....have a blast!
 

michaelvpardo

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mp, I acturally disagree with your interpretation of "leaven never representing something good in the spiritual sense."

Leaven is just yeast and Jesus used it both ways....
Mat 16:12 "Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees.​

In the OT loaves of bread was a "wave offering" that was placed on the alter at certain times but it could not have yeast/leaven in it. But the interesting thing is that on the Day of Passover, Jesus, for the first time used leavened breasd at the Last Supper. Why the change? Because it was to represent his resurrection from death to life whereas the teaching of the Pharisees represented the false teachings and burdens of the Pharisees.

Our pastor does not know this and we have those "paper-like-tasteless white thingys" that Catholics use. I'm waiting for an opportunity to "enlighten" him!:cool:
That's the most carnal understanding I've ever read. Leaven is an infection that corrupts and changes that which it infects. Leaven spiritually represents sin in both the old and the New Testaments. If you don't understand one of the most basic spiritual doctrines, you're listening to the wrong teacher. Pray that the Lord give you His Holy Spirit and He'll give you brand new eyes that are able to discern spiritual truth as He Himself teaches you the truth and turns you from dogma.
Why do you imagine that Jesus ate Leaven for the passover? Who told you that? It definitely wasn't scripture or God.
Did you know that Jews were to remove all leaven from the house before passover. Do you think his disciples went to the local goyim bakery to buy a loaf?
When Jesus fashioned a whip and drove the money changers from the temple, He did this for the feast of unleavened bread, cleansing the house of sin.
Its ok, I was a Roman Catholic once, and though catechised and confirmed, and a reader of scripture, when it came to spiritual things I was clueless. You must be born again.
 

michaelvpardo

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I think it becomes heretical when it violates God's commandments. Like "Thou shall not kill" but they nailed Jesus to a cross.
Well, actually the commandment is understood to be though shall not murder, because the punishment for breaking it was death and executions were stoning by the congregation.
 

GodsGrace

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From Merriam's

beget
verb
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be·get | \ bi-ˈget , bē- \
begot\ bi-ˈgät , bē- \ also begat\ bi-ˈgat , bē- \; begotten\ bi-ˈgä-tᵊn , bē- \ or begot; begetting

Definition of beget


transitive verb

1: to procreate as the father
Merriam didn't participate in the written word.
He wasn't a theologian.
You should trust theologians, they know what words meant in Jesus' time.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The "Feast of Unleavened Bread" and the "Feast of Passover" are two different feasts but are usually, but not always, held together. That is why you have verses 12 and 22 using the same word "bread" but with different Greek meanings which are referred to as "homonyms".

I see you only posted verse 22 that shows "bread" as "artos" in the Greek but excluded verse12 because the English word "unleavened" was clearly the Greek word "azymos".

Acts 12:3 - "When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread."

STRONGS G740: ἄρτος, -ου, ὁ, bread; Hebrew לֶחֶם;
1. food composed of flour mixed with water and baked; the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence, it was not cut, but broken Matthew 4:3; Matthew 7:9; Matthew 14:17, 19; Mark 6:, Mark 6:37; Luke 4:3; Luke 24:30; John 6:5ff; Acts 27:35, and often;​

ἄρτοι τῆς προθέσεως, loaves consecrated to Jehovah, see πρόθεσις; on the bread used at the love-feasts and the sacred supper cf. Matthew 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19; Acts 2:42, 46; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:26-28. (Note that Mark 14:12 is not listed here because it was "unleavened bread" - azymos.)​

Below is a list of verses with "bread/artos" used in John (I skipped over non-bread verses) Greek- bread = artos , G740 (Used 18 times)

Jhn 6:4- Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

Jhn 6:5- Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a multitude was coming to him, Jesus said to Philip, "How are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?"

Jhn 6:7- Philip answered him, "Two hundred denarii would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little."

Jhn 6:9- "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two fish; but what are they among so many?"

Jhn 6:11- Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted.

Jhn 6:13- So they gathered them up and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves, left by those who had eaten.

Jhn 6:26- Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.

Jhn 6:31- Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"

Jhn 6:32- Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Jhn 6:33- For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world."

Jhn 6:41- The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."

Jhn 6:48- I am the bread of life..

Jhn 6:50- This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

Jhn 6:51- I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Jhn 6:58- This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."​

Is that why you did not include the Attachment for verse 12?
I see you ignored the OT passages which instituted this feast. When God said that no leaven was to be allowed during the meal.

I mean. What your trying to tel me is Jesus himself disobeyed the law. And according to that he would be a sinner. And we would all be dead in our sin, Because his sacrifice was null and void. I guess the disciples made up the story of his resurrection because they felt bad.

I did not leave anything out. I posted the whole passage in question

They were AT the feast of Unleavened bread.

They were celebrating the PASSOVER.
 

GodsGrace

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I see you ignored the OT passages which instituted this feast. When God said that no leaven was to be allowed during the meal.

I mean. What your trying to tel me is Jesus himself disobeyed the law. And according to that he would be a sinner. And we would all be dead in our sin, Because his sacrifice was null and void. I guess the disciples made up the story of his resurrection because they felt bad.

I did not leave anything out. I posted the whole passage in question

They were AT the feast of Unleavened bread.

They were celebrating the PASSOVER.
Hi EG
On that Thurs. Evening, was unleavened bread used.?
Sorry, been busy and I missed the entire convo.
Please clarify.
 

Moriah's Song

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That's the most carnal understanding I've ever read. Leaven is an infection that corrupts and changes that which it infects. Leaven spiritually represents sin in both the old and the New Testaments. If you don't understand one of the most basic spiritual doctrines, you're listening to the wrong teacher.
The Bible often presents us with a choice of two contrasting things that are poles apart. So it is with "leaven." It appears that Jesus used "leavened bread" because He was instituting the New Covenant and showing us that instead of sacrifices and feasts it would be "communion" with "wine" (or grape juice) and bread.

Heaven and Hell --- There is an eternal home in heaven as well as an eternal hell.
Beginning and End --- God has neither beginning nor end. His creation will end in a new beginning.
Good and Evil --- the Battle of right against wrong.
Truth and Error --- The Bible often mentions truth as opposed to falsehood.
Light and Darkness --- The Light" of the gospel brings enlightenment to those in spiritual darkness.
Knowledge and Ignorance --- Learn Christ or Know Nothing.
Love and Hate --- Love God and hate sin.​

Good leaven:
Matt. 13:33 - He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."

Luke 13:21 - It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."​

Bad leaven:

1 Cor 5:6 - Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Gal 5:9 - A little leaven leavens the whole lump.​

Good and bad leaven in one sentence:
Mat 16:11-12 - How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread (autos)? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.....which is hypocrisy. (Lu 12:1)

1Co 5:7 - Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.

1Co 5:8 - Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​
 
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Moriah's Song

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I see you ignored the OT passages which instituted this feast. When God said that no leaven was to be allowed during the meal.
We are no longer obligated to adhere to OT feasts and sacrifices. Jesus was our "sacrifice once and for all."

Heb 7:27 "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
 

Eternally Grateful

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We are no longer obligated to adhere to OT feasts and sacrifices. Jesus was our "sacrifice once and for all."

Heb 7:27 "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
lol

When Jesus was in the upper room, celebrating the fiest of unleavened bread. They were still under the Old covenant.

we are talking about that supper. Not the sacrifice of almighty.
 

amigo de christo

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@GodsGrace In Luke 22 there is the transition from the Passover to the Lord's Supper.
From the old to the new . The old passover was always pointing to the coming true passover lamb .
Israel was kept safe from the wrath of GOD by a blood of a lamb
But this was always leading to being truly saved , by the blood of the only sacrifice that could truly
save and transform the conscious to be a hearer and a doer , a new creature .
PS , DO NOT HEED THE CC . Many can drink and eat of that communion yet be lost .
Our faith must be in JESUS alone .